DUST Search - So I realise something about AV

Atiim wrote:

1. Not a lie, I've fitted several Madrugars which survive Swarms provided they can get to cover. As for Myrons, you have to be either drunk or trolling to not be able to survive Swarms in those.

2. Only affects low-end AV, therefore making it irrelevant. That same STD/ADV damage increment was also followed PRO damage nerf, thus reducing the Max damage that can be obtained by a SL.

2a. This was the buff I'm referring to.
2b. Irrelevant as it didn't decrease the SL's TTK due to the fact that the -0.1s is minimal and the PRO damage nerf.

2c. Lock time has not been reduced to 1.05s. The lock time is still 1.4s but is reduced by the SL's Operation Bonus; that hasn't changed since Uprising 1.0.

2d. Also irrelevant, as MinComs only increased the Max. SL damage by 85HP. Any Dropsuit with 3 High Slots (All Medium Frames, Shielded Scouts & Shielded Sentinels). To prove I'm not lying, look at the math:

Quote:

312(1.1)(1.1351)(4) = 1558HP
312(1.1804)(4) = 1473HP

That +85HP doesn't change the TTK of Swarm Launchers, even against unfitted LAVs.

3a-3e aren't buffs nor do they address any of the assertions I've made; but simply you crying about bugs. I could easily address why some of the can be circumvented, but they'll be fixed in about 4 days anyways so it doesn't matter.

You also missed the fact that ADV & PRO Swarms received a nerf to knockback in HF Charlie,

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Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 150	Posted - 2014.10.31 22:35:00 - [31] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Forum Flaming doesn't refute my statement. I don't even have advanced or proto vehicles, or equipment in the vehicle tree, nearly everything is basic. A point is a point. I am Gamer Satan's lover, but don't tell anyone that. You can help my cause to purify scrubs by praying to Gamer Satan.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1251	Posted - 2014.10.31 23:48:00 - [32] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: The swarm launchers had been buffed so ridiculously that armour tanking HAV's were pushed to almost virtual uselessness if anyone has anything advanced and up, even the basics are ridiculous. I got a Myron dropship, and the same thing applies. Can't Anything be done competently??? Jeez. The only recent buffs has been to increase the missile velocity and acceleration by a few meters a second. You really think that has totally changed tank swarm balance? Because, that's why.
XSoldierSaintX Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2014.11.01 00:56:00 - [33] - Quote Rubs militia swarm gently its **** time .
Lupus Wolf Minmatar Republic 10	Posted - 2014.11.01 02:37:00 - [34] - Quote My biggest problem with the ADS is the rendering issue. Unless you have a scanner (which takes away an extremely useful after burner), or are extremely close to the infantry, they don't render. Swarms always get the first hit if the dropship's out in the open, which is the majority of the time (Not to mention a hit behind cover will knock you into the building/rock you're behind, killing a python and leaving the other 2 volleys enough to kill an incubus). Even if you see the swarms being fired, lingering to counter attack will just get you killed. Then the rest of the match is spent flying around the entire map avoiding AV. Gunnlogis with BLASTERS!?! BLASPHEMY!!! #MissilesFoLyfe \|: Rail/Missile GL< Blaster GL< B Matty< M Matty< Missile GL :\|
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1054	Posted - 2014.11.01 04:43:00 - [35] - Quote your not using a tank to survive swarms, your using a tank to be completely 100% invulnerarble to all non av infantry. swarms are supposed to own you in the same way you own infantry. its called balance. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 150	Posted - 2014.11.01 04:52:00 - [36] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: your not using a tank to survive swarms, your using a tank to be completely 100% invulnerarble to all non av infantry. swarms are supposed to own you in the same way you own infantry. its called balance. Either one being invincible/ killing them in 3 seconds/ stealthkilling them is not balance, just as like being able to shoot a person you can't see and that can kill you in one hit is not balance. Vehicles are supposed to be useable, not "own and be owned" I am Gamer Satan's lover, but don't tell anyone that. You can help my cause to purify scrubs by praying to Gamer Satan.
Everything Dies LIFE IS KILLING ME 1058	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:55:00 - [37] - Quote Proto swarms/forge and tank pilot here, and there's definitely a few things that are holding back the Maddys: 1. The adjustment to rail turret damage now puts Maddys at a disadvantage against missile turrets, rail turrets, swarms and forge guns when compared to Gunnlogis. 2. The low CPU cripples the ability of a Maddy to use a proto turret and anything better than standard plates/reps. By comparison, with the Gunni I can usually fit one small turret in addition to a proto turret PLUS an enhanced shield extender. Drop to a standard large turret and I can add on a second small turret and still have CPU/PG to spare. Gunni builds typically have well over 6,000HP with two shield hardeners, whereas a Maddy has to sacrifice quite a bit more to reach similar numbers. 3. The damage bonus offered to Minmatar commandos + the increase to light weapon damage modifiers = a bad time for armor pilots. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2290	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:40:00 - [38] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: Proto swarms/forge and tank pilot here, and there's definitely a few things that are holding back the Maddys: 1. The adjustment to rail turret damage now puts Maddys at a disadvantage against missile turrets, rail turrets, swarms and forge guns when compared to Gunnlogis. 2. The low CPU cripples the ability of a Maddy to use a proto turret and anything better than standard plates/reps. By comparison, with the Gunni I can usually fit one small turret in addition to a proto turret PLUS an enhanced shield extender. Drop to a standard large turret and I can add on a second small turret and still have CPU/PG to spare. Gunni builds typically have well over 6,000HP with two shield hardeners, whereas a Maddy has to sacrifice quite a bit more to reach similar numbers. 3. The damage bonus offered to Minmatar commandos + the increase to light weapon damage modifiers = a bad time for armor pilots. The Maddy is in a good place when it comes to missile. It's missile, which is explosive, which has a bonus against armor. I'm not against that at all. What I didn't like at all was changing the rail damage profile to do more against armor. There's increasingly fewer and fewer reasons to use the Maddy; only upside is being able to use a scanner and NOS without eating into the armor tank. Yeah, it's difficult to fit a neutron blaster, but it helps if you have the fitting skill to at least 3. What is kinda bad is that there's only one thing that gets a bonus against shield, and that's the plasma cannon. I feel the blaster should be the middle ground as far as vehicle turrets go. Not great against shield or armor, but good enough to put up a fight. Missile obviously nukes armor, and rail should be better against shield, not armor. As I said, there's little reason to use a Maddy, other than for turret depression and using a NOS without eating away the tank. I'd love to know the reasoning behind having the rail do even more damage to armor. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2290	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:42:00 - [39] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: your not using a tank to survive swarms, your using a tank to be completely 100% invulnerarble to all non av infantry. swarms are supposed to own you in the same way you own infantry. its called balance. So what would you suggest, that an AR become a legitimate AV weapon? I remember destroying a LAV in the beta with a shotgun. I wasn't amused by it, I was appalled by it, that an infantry weapon was viable against a LAV. Rifles, SMGs, and shotguns and the like should do zero damage to vehicles. There's no reason they should do anything to them at all. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 303	Posted - 2014.11.01 06:59:00 - [40] - Quote Hmmm... How about -- nerf swarm missle damage against shield -- keep same for armor -- slower turn radius. Add new AV gun -- high damage to shield -- low damage to armor.

Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 53	Posted - 2014.11.01 12:28:00 - [41] - Quote Atiim wrote: 1. Not a lie, I've fitted several Madrugars which survive Swarms provided they can get to cover. As for Myrons, you have to be either drunk or trolling to not be able to survive Swarms in those. 2. Only affects low-end AV, therefore making it irrelevant. That same STD/ADV damage increment was also followed PRO damage nerf, thus reducing the Max damage that can be obtained by a SL. 2a. This was the buff I'm referring to. 2b. Irrelevant as it didn't decrease the SL's TTK due to the fact that the -0.1s is minimal and the PRO damage nerf. 2c. Lock time has not been reduced to 1.05s. The lock time is still 1.4s but is reduced by the SL's Operation Bonus; that hasn't changed since Uprising 1.0. 2d. Also irrelevant, as MinComs only increased the Max. SL damage by 85HP. Any Dropsuit with 3 High Slots (All Medium Frames, Shielded Scouts & Shielded Sentinels). To prove I'm not lying, look at the math: Quote: 312(1.1)(1.1351)(4) = 1558HP 312(1.1804)(4) = 1473HP That +85HP doesn't change the TTK of Swarm Launchers, even against unfitted LAVs. 3a-3e aren't buffs nor do they address any of the assertions I've made; but simply you crying about bugs. I could easily address why some of the can be circumvented, but they'll be fixed in about 4 days anyways so it doesn't matter. You also missed the fact that ADV & PRO Swarms received a nerf to knockback in HF Charlie, 1. Wrong again - Swarms have had more than 1 buff since 1.2 - That is what i was referring too with your big fat lie 1a. 1.2 was in July of 2013 - http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ - Remember the bugs and broken parts of the SL are still not fixed and this was well before 1.2 and that included the old 400m lock on range where nothing for pilots rendered tha vast majority of the time and that included enemy players 50m in front so hitting the SL user on top of a tower was impossible while they denied the entire map to all pilots 1b. 1.7 The giant vehicle nerf - http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/11/vehicles-in-uprising-1.7-1/ and the forum thread showing what modules, turrets and hulls the pilots lost - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122274&find=unread and also hotfixes aplha/bravo/charlie/delta recieve consec nerfs to vehicles 1c. Hotfix Charlie buffed swarms in 3 areas - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171091&find=unread - More ammo, more damage and faster firing animations 2. STD/ADV has had a big buff to damage, PRO only lost 77hp which is frankly nothing 2b. Is relevent if it gets the missiles out faster and to the target faster and it does 2c. Lock time is 1.05 - Even without the skill quite fast and all volleys out before 4seconds 2d. 10% damage is not irrelevent 3a-e. No they are not buffs but they are bugs and problems which have existed since well before 1.0 and that is well over a year ago if not longer and to say they will be fixed in 4 days they tried fixing invisible swarms from 1.0 to 1.6 and in the end they reduced swarms lock on range to try and fix the problem and overhauled vehicles aswell to boot, the original bugs and problems with the SL have not been fixed 4. HF Charlie contains no information about a 'knockback' nerf and my ADS gets hit like a tin can in a tornado when im dealing with swarms - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171091&find=unread
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2244	Posted - 2014.11.01 12:48:00 - [42] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Hmmm... How about -- nerf swarm missle damage against shield -- keep same for armor -- slower turn radius. Add new AV gun -- high damage to shield -- low damage to armor. Already exists, Plasma Cannon. It rapes shield tanks at high skill levels. Bust out that Allotek n go melt some shields. Bonus if you get the first hit off in their rear for a CRITICAL HIT! "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 151	Posted - 2014.11.01 13:01:00 - [43] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: The pilot can take action by not sitting there like a lemon, fly away or drive off. It isnt hard. Exactly, the only option is to fly/drive around at high speed like a maniac trying to dodge the insanely powerful militia swarms that are hitting you from every direction.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 53	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:00:00 - [44] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: The pilot can take action by not sitting there like a lemon, fly away or drive off. It isnt hard. Exactly, the only option is to fly/drive around at high speed like a maniac trying to dodge the insanely powerful militia swarms that are hitting you from every direction. 1. Your actions will be delayed 1a. If the user and the missiles are invisible by the time you get hit then you are already reacting far too late because in the case of swarms the 1st volley has hit, the 2nd volley is in the air and will hit and the 3rd is about to leave the tube and will in most cases catch up and hit you 1b. In the case of the FG it requires aim and you can throw off there aim, you cannot throw off a lock on weapon, you will get hit 1c. If the knockback is strong enough that will also delay your get away since you may get knocked into a building or just knocked the wrong way from where you want to escape
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4305	Posted - 2014.11.01 14:20:00 - [45] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: VikingKong iBUN wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: The pilot can take action by not sitting there like a lemon, fly away or drive off. It isnt hard. Exactly, the only option is to fly/drive around at high speed like a maniac trying to dodge the insanely powerful militia swarms that are hitting you from every direction. 1. Your actions will be delayed 1a. If the user and the missiles are invisible by the time you get hit then you are already reacting far too late because in the case of swarms the 1st volley has hit, the 2nd volley is in the air and will hit and the 3rd is about to leave the tube and will in most cases catch up and hit you 1b. In the case of the FG it requires aim and you can throw off there aim, you cannot throw off a lock on weapon, you will get hit 1c. If the knockback is strong enough that will also delay your get away since you may get knocked into a building or just knocked the wrong way from where you want to escape I hope rattati and frame keep nerfing vehicles until you make paragraph posts like an adult rather than making lists for everything like an OCD nerd-child. Has to be the most annoying and pointless thing on the forums. Devs hold vehicles hostage till he posts like a grownup please. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1057	Posted - 2014.11.01 17:35:00 - [46] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: your not using a tank to survive swarms, your using a tank to be completely 100% invulnerarble to all non av infantry. swarms are supposed to own you in the same way you own infantry. its called balance. Either one being invincible/ killing them in 3 seconds/ stealthkilling them is not balance, just as like being able to shoot a person you can't see and that can kill you in one hit is not balance. Vehicles are supposed to be useable, not "own and be owned" so your saying an infantry unit should be able to kill a tank using only small arms like 1.6 where you could empty a few clips and kill a tank? if so thats fine. but the current method is infantry cant do jack against tanks so why should tanks be able to put up a fight against av. go play any mmo. rangers kill mages, mages kill melee, melee kills rangers. av is rangers, vehicles are mages, and melee is infantry. av cant do squat against infantry and melee always gets torn apart by magic. magics natural weakness then is rangers. same here. if you let mages and vehicles do whatever they want it throws the whole formula out of whack. everything in eve has a counter. av is the tank/dropship counter. and thats how it should be in an fps setting. thats just how it works. the tank is immune to small arms and vulnerable to av. its balance. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17563	Posted - 2014.11.01 18:01:00 - [47] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Atiim wrote: There are several Myron & Madrugar fits that can survive Swarm Launchers, provided that you don't stand there like an idiot and actually get to cover when your being fired at. Though I should note that there has only been a single Swarm Launcher buff since Uprising 1.2. 1. Wrong and you are lying 2. Swarms have been buffed at basic and adv damage wise 2a. Swarms now move faster and accelerate faster 2b. They fire faster because all swarm varients fire 4 missiles instead of 5/6 at adv/proto level to the animation is faster 2c. Lock time has been reduced to 1.05seconds and full 3 volleys can be fired in less than 4seconds 2d. Mimando suit - Offers a 10% to damage for swarms 3. Various bugs which make the swarm launcher better 3a. Invisible missiles - Pilot cannot take action when they cannot see the missiles 3b. AV user not rendering - Again cant take action if you dont know if you are being targeted 3c. Broken targeting - Like being able to lock on through cover/objects 3d. Broken tracking - Missiles going around consecutive corners/cover because the missile track to where you were not where you are at 3e. 270deg turns - Missiles can stop and turn on the spot and then set off at full speed I may have missed some Point 3e is invalid display error and has very little bearing on balanced. (as opposed to the non rendering swarm launcher which does) On the launcher's screen the missiles did a perfect dive into your ship. from your point of view the missiles did the weirdest crazy ivan into your dropship. This is similar to the missiles through walls ordeal. Why does this happen? Server has one story and its the most perfect story but the time to get that story out is a bit slow to the clients so on your screen where its entirely clueless to the physics of said launcher being used has to rely on the story the server is telling what is going on and the individual updates between each point makes for a hilarious lie when you fill in the gaps between each page. Client rendering the original physics sees nothing wrong. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 152	Posted - 2014.11.01 23:53:00 - [48] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Untrue. Anyone can easily destroy a militia vehicle with militia/basic av not needing putting much effort into fighting the vehicle, and anyone can easily destroy basic vehicles in the same manner except basic tanks. Madrugars can still be destroyed like that, and gunnlogis may give trouble but if there is someone with advanced+ av or advanced+ large turrets everything is fine. Vehicles shouldn't exist just to be destroyed, just like ranges, mages, and melee exist to be used and not bested like they exist in an archaic and boring system of rock/paper scissors. This is warfare and warfare doesn't work like that. FPS are based off of warfare. One side shouldn't be disadvantaged based off the time it takes for players to attack them like how swarmers can destroy vehicles like that. If you can't use militia/basic av to destroy vehicles like that, then your it needs to be changed to be more stealthy or you need to get farther from the vehicle. Thats what everyone else does at least. But for everything else, vehicle users are at a disadvantage if they don't have ADS or gunnlogi/madrugar/saga II or some superfit exploiting modules. I am Gamer Satan's lover, but don't tell anyone that. You can help my cause to purify scrubs by praying to Gamer Satan.
Everything Dies Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1062	Posted - 2014.11.03 02:19:00 - [49] - Quote Side question: What is the deal with the insane amount of damage a small missile turret can do compared to a large missile turret? Honestly, if CCP gave me the choice I'd stop using a large turret and stack on an additional two small turrets... Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:27:00 - [50] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Hmmm... How about -- nerf swarm missle damage against shield -- keep same for armor -- slower turn radius. Add new AV gun -- high damage to shield -- low damage to armor. Already exists, Plasma Cannon. It rapes shield tanks at high skill levels. Bust out that Allotek n go melt some shields. Bonus if you get the first hit off in their rear for a CRITICAL HIT! Ya fair enough!

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14261	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:39:00 - [51] - Quote IMO changes need to happen on the Armour Vehicle side of things. Armour HAV cannot apply crisis management like shield vehicles can. IMO a valid series of suggestions would be - Destroy Passive Armour Reps (BAD ARMOUR REPS BAD!) - Return the Pulsed Active Reps - Armour Hardeners to 30-33% - Armour Plates and HP values receive slight rebalances. - More severe mass penalties. (Armour Honeycombing to adjust) "HeGÇÖs sorry. ThatGÇÖs his sorry faceGÇª. Just keep quiet for now and maybe you'll get through this." -Kador Ouryon
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1316	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:42:00 - [52] - Quote cant beat em join em.. 87k more SP til proto swarms.. join the swarm legion.. the more swarms the better.. i helped spam some SL and the other team stopped calling vehicles so we put away our swarms and called our vehicles out on their infantry lol.. whoever team has more AV gets to call the vehicles AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012


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