I am curious why Gal scout have both precision and damping? With both bonuses the Gal is by far the best scout. they have 4 low slots, at proto, so they can easily run 3 dampeners, the Amarr and Caldari I get they bonus. Amarr need better precision with 2 highs and Caldari with 2 lows need the damping. This will get hated, but why not switch the Gal dampening with the Minnie hacking? This will help the Minnie with some damping and Gal with hacking, but I am not talking about 3%, for the Minnie just 2% so 10% at pro. Let the gal have the full 5% per level hacking. Here is some proof, with a proto Gal you can use 2 damps with proto cloak and 1-2 ferros or 1-2 kin cats with 2 precision have they 100% damped (while cloaked) have some speed ad/or armor and be able to pick up 85-90% of most suit and scouts.

This is to bring them to balance not 1 scout is king, so positive feedback please. I have 3 of the 4 scouts proto and I run them a lot.

The Amarr have a better Precision bonus while having the same amount of slots, while the Caldari's secondary bonus is the exact same as our primary.

The only thing we have going is our increased speed compared to Amarr and passive repair. Other than that, our bonuses aren't that good compared to others'. In skilled into every scout and I think the Caldari have the best bonuses in the game. The only thing it lacks in is that they only receive two low slots, which is a scout's best friend.

My two iskies.

Gallente is pretty powerful, but Joel's right: Amarr has better precision - 17.85 dB. Whereas the Gallente hits something around 20 to 21 dB. Caldari, if you stack 4 Precisions Enhancers can do better than Gallente.

And not to leave Minmatar out, I've seen a Min scout beat my passive scans while uncloaked against my Amarr scout at 17.85 dB, meaning he was running 3 damps. And if it's any objective scout that can attack an objective that I fear, it's the Minmatar scout.

Each scout has it's strengths and weaknesses. And remember, if the scout starts fitting extreme EWAR, their attack and defensive traits are much lower than those who fit battle scouts.

With your suggestions, you run the risk of homogenization: there is no king in the scouts class but there's no difference and special ability that is unique to them.

The challenge with the Gal scout is that it can still get under all scans and run more HP than any other suit.

Combined with the cloak and high-alpha weapon like the shotgun, and imbalance insues.

Part of the underlying reason is the extra low slots and the flexibility it provides the Gal scout that the other scouts don't get, but in the end it comes down to evading scans with HP, and there's no better suit than the Gal to do it.

There are a couple of ways to solve that problem, and I'm not sure what's the right one, but I'm fairly certain the root of the imbalance in scouts comes down to the observations above.

with 3 complex dampners it is 15.85 however the max armor he would have is 87. and with a max sprint of 8.31mps. Gal was the first scout in the game but again why does it need BOTH precision and damping? it has 4 low slots. so why have a damping on it? btw CCP don't always follow their rules on what race has what. if that was the case calmmandos would have the swarm launcher bonus not minnies. btw yes there is a king scout. look at what suit can tank, hide and see most other scouts. if not I challenge you to run against gal scouts using another scout like the Minnie. but you are right on paper it looks like it would be a mess. but in the game it would be different.

I didn't word it correctly, I was referring to your changes. Should your changes take effect, you run the risk of every single scout becoming homogenized. All the scouts would be the same across the board with only small percentages of difference between them, but nothing to make each one unique to the other, except for how each scout looks.

i will curious to why Gal scout have both precision and damping? with both bonuses the Gal is by far the best scout. they have 4 low slots (at proto) so they can easily run 3 dampners the amarr and caldari I get they bonus. amarr need better precision with 2 highs and cald with 2 lows need the damping. this will get hated but why not switch the gal damping with the Minnie hacking? this will help the Minnie with some damping and gal with hacking. but I am not talking about 3% for the Minnie just 2% so 10% at pro. and let the gal have the full 5% per level hacking. here is some proof. with a proto gal you use 2 damps with proto cloack and 1-2 ferros or 1-2 kin carts with 2 precision have they 100% damped (while cloaked) have some speed ad/or armor and be able to pick up 85-90% of most suit and scouts.

this is to bring them to balance not 1 scout is king. so positive feedback please. I have 3 of the 4 scouts proto and I run them a lot.

The reason is the number of High and Low slots.

Caldari need a bonus to dampening because at best they have 2 LS

Gallente need a bonus to precision because, again, at best they have 2 HS.

Part of what makes the Gal the best scout is not because they are OP in and of themselves, but because so many of the useful mods are LS, and because Shields are at this point inferior to armor.

If there were better balance between High and Low slot modules, all else being the same as it currently is, you would see greater balance.

Well not to throw the racial wrench in your face but gal are supposed to have the best scout, the most balanced Ewar, slots and survivability.

Gallente are hunter scouts, made to hunt medium frames and heavies, used for all around scout combat balanced in all aspects. Able to run reps, bio, Ewar or *cringe tank

Minmitar is an assassination scout and espionage unit used for a quick get in get out hacker and ambush attacks. Supposed to run Bio best with mild Ewar

Caldari is Asymetrical warfare, made for counterespionage and stealth hunting other scouts mainly. Able to run shield recharge, Ewar and *cringe tank

Amarr is used as a heavy scout baiting hunter, used more for another scout to find them first and have the Amarr get the jump on them with superior scans. Able to run mild reps, Ewar and... Tank which is its role... Sorta...

Makes a sense hacking is gallente tech anyways and nk need dampening to be affective. No scout shpuld be unscannable by another scout that is stacking percision enhancers its a broken system that needs fixing. As of now min scout is only one that takes skill to use. Other 3 sacrifice almost nothing to have good ewar and the fact ccp let this happen tells me any future endeavors in fps's for ccp will be a fail.

your not going to turn my suit into a freaking hacking suit thats nonsense and not what i got the suit for in the first place. they just changed all the bonuses a little while ago should have been talking about it then. if you run a amarr scout but you like the gallente bonus then why dafuq did you skill into the amarr scout.

your not going to turn my suit into a freaking hacking suit thats nonsense and not what i got the suit for in the first place. they just changed all the bonuses a little while ago should have been talking about it then. if you run a amarr scout but you like the gallente bonus then why dafuq did you skill into the amarr scout.

Lol leave him alone!

He just made a landmine out of 500 proto re's by saying that is all... While I don't agree with it, I will say that the "play it your way" slogan is just funny as this is a prime example.

Fake scouts came to abuse while real scouts actually run ewar and choose to have a little tank on the side. <--- this is what the Gal scout is the truest form of.

Min scouts have a speed and hacking bonus(?) so while the damp is low they have a natural enter and escape to of running... (Though I would even agree to a higher bonus percentage than they have now... I don't know what percent it is )

Amarr adopted the precision and, i'm assuming everyone is talking about scout that have maxed their bonus and related skills maxed, have to use 3 comp precisions vs the Gal 3 comps ( for Gal to beat them or all precision) or whatever the slots may be? While also having room for a little tank armor wise. If there is another bonus please tell me.

Cal bonus has a secondary for precision and that's all I know from what's stated and is the highest shield based suit. I can't really even try to explain this as I know almost nothing of this specific suit in general. Please tell me more about the bonus/slots if you would.

the bonuses as they are now is and slots at pro (all scouts get 15% reduction to pg/cpu on cloaks.
Gall-2% precision & 3% damping per level / slots 2 high, 4 low
Cald- 10% to dropsuit scan radius & 3% damping per level / slots 4 high, 2 low
Amarr- 5% to scan precision, stamina regen & max stamina per lever / slots 2 high, 4 low
Minnie- 5% to hacking speed and nova knife damage per level / slots 3 high, 3 low

what I am talking about is trading the gal damping and Minnie hacking.

Sclompton Face-Smasher only if that were true most gal scout can see 75-90% of scouts and have 2 dampners and ferro plates with a proto cloak so they can see a lot hide from all passive dropsuit scans and still have armor for fighting remember they have a natural armor regen of 3 too. they need to lose the damping so they have to choose like the rest to go ewar or armor tanking

You can take the precision bonus I dont care, just as long as you remove my dampening bonus from the Caldari.

I would agree but the amarr has the most assault type potential already.

but if range came back to the gal what would be acceptable for the Cal scouts?

the 1% range per level was a joke at proto you got 0.1 of a meter to your suits scan range I suggested switching the hacking and the damping of the Minnie and gal. but the gall would get all 5% per level to hacking however the Minnie would get 2% per level vs the gall 3% per level now. the amarr have the potential to be a great assault slayer but with gall and cald but running 2 dampners and proto cloak the amarr can not see them even with the precision bonus & 2 ccomplex precisions so he will get caught from the back by one of those 2.

What would 3 precision mods be if on the Amarr? I'm not good at maths.

they only have 2 high slots but a third would require 3 dampners on both gall & caldari with an adv cloak to hide from it. but adding an extra slot to scouts would kill the assault suits all over again.

Here is the way i see most people using scout suits:

Amarr: **** amarr is horrid, i aint seen no one use it yet
Minmitar: Usually dampened....some hackers
Gallante: Dampened all the time, with precision if for eWar or shield tanking.
Caldari: I am a caldari, so this is experience; shield tanked, dampened 9 times out of 10. Other time i stack precision mods and armor tank.

I feel the gallante and caldari scouts reign supreme, and the caldari should get precision bonuses instead of scan profile bonuses.

I say Cal is the best. That tankability and Broken Hitbox makes it superior to the Gal scout. But Gal has a pretty good bonus

Inter-balance between the scouts I really can't speak on, as I only have the amarr scout. I can say that the amarr scout is way better than it was at their release, but still seems to lag a little behind the cal and gal (this could be a case of grass is greener though).


I will say though that scouts are just too good in general. Too many of their stats are too far outside of the range of the other suits.
I will make a post in the future about this flaw.

switch the bonus to modules.
normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength
normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength

solved.

switching the bonuses to modules sounds like a great idea and I agree to that.

but I can not agree to leveling the dampners and percisions. due to the changes in logi bonuses like the gall logi then could scan all scouts if you bring the damping up to precision levels and if you take the precision to dampner levels then amarr or caldari could passive scan all scouts

HOWEVER if the bonuses were to modules then it would work with the logi bonuses but the bonuses % would need to be adjusted to match present ewar levels.

but I can not agree to leveling the dampners and percisions. due to the changes in logi bonuses like the gall logi then could scan all scouts if you bring the damping up to precision levels and if you take the precision to dampner levels then amarr or caldari could passive scan all scouts

first of all 2 damps and your gal logi cant do ****, just like now.

and what is the problem that you would have to use damps to be actually invisible? that is the point, to have drawbacks. so if a caldari scouts wishes to see all stuff except a full damped gal scout in exchange for having zero hp than so it be. atleast he cannot participate in combat unlike now where the scout can still see almost everything but having enough hp together with a small hitbox.

switch the bonus to modules.
normalize the bonus of dampeners and precision enhancers to be equal in strength
normalize the base precision and siganture of scouts to be equal in strength

you can still hide from everything but you have atleast some drawbacks. solved.

Gal ... why does it need BOTH precision and damping?

Rattati sought to normalize ewar potentials among each of the three ewar-oriented scouts. One is frontrunner in each ewar capacity, but can achieve competency in the other ewar capacities, assuming he is fit to do so:

CA - Competent Dampening (16 dB), Competent Precision (20 dB), Strongest Scan Range (91m)
GA - Strongest Dampening (13 dB), Competent Precision (21 dB), Competent Scan Range (86m)
AM - Competent Dampening (15 dB), Strongest Precision (18 dB), Competent Scan Range (86m)

This is the "why" behind some of the counter-intuitive racial bonuses you see. We presume that the purpose behind ewar normalization was (1) to encourage build diversity and (2) to incentivize the use of ewar modules over HP tank.

1. that was a good idea but it backfired big time.

2. back when we had the 360 spin scanners a gall scout had to run 3-4 dampners to hide ...

3. ... but now he needs 2 complexs and an adv cloak and a proto gal logi with a dovulle focused scanner can not see him. that mean nothing can see him on radar period unless you are looking at him when he is not cloaked. here is why run a proto gal scout with 2 complex precisions, 2 complex dampners, & a proto cloak you are full ewar ready. oh wait! you still have 2 low slots to armor or speed tank with any adv to proto light weapon and sidearm plus remotes or hives.

oh btw that is 3 of the scouts but where is the Minnie?

1. I disagree. These racial bonus changes were implemented alongside Assault improvements with clearly defined goals in mind. Prior to these changes, the CA Scout was too effective in its recon capacity; many Scouts ran HP since they were going to be scanned regardless of whether or not they ran Damps. MN and AM Scouts were unhealthy in both comparative performance and in usage rates. HP-tanked GA and CA "Assault Lite Scouts" outnumbered actual Assaults. In a word, Scouts were a mess. Today, Assault usage is up and "Assault Lite" usage is down (per Rattati) ... I'm willing to bet that ewar module usage has also increased among each of the four Scouts, and I'm willing to bet that usage rates are leveling out among each of the four Scouts.

2. It almost seems as though you're speaking fondly of a time when 75% of mercs were slayer logis, 75% of weapons used were Rifles, and 75% of every battlefield was permascanned by active scanner. If this is your idea of healthy balance, then you and I aren't going to see eye-to-eye on anything.

3. So what? If he doesn't run HP in those two lows, he'll have 1/3 HP of the nearest Assault and 1/4 the HP of the nearest Heavy. If he does run HP, he'll have 1/2 the HP of the nearest Assault and 1/3 the HP of the nearest Heavy. And if he runs one Precision Enhancer, he'll pick up all hostile Scouts who fail to dampen.

The MinScout excels in areas other than ewar. His maximum ewar values are follows:

Scan Range - 76m
Scan Precision - 21 dB
Scan Profile - 16 dB

FYI: At 2 cmp damps, the MinScout can still be scanned by a AM Scout. At 3, he will beat everything except GA Logi + Focused. At 3 + Proto Cloak (on), he will dodge GA Logi + Focused.

The biggest problem with gal scout is he can evade all scans and has too many eHP after the 2 damps.
This effect is the same with cal scout, only less so.

The above is why the gal/cal scout are superior to the other scouts, IMO -- they simply can have too many HP and still be unscannable.

^ This is specific. An excellent example. Thank you :-)

If Rattati tells us that heavily armored Scouts are overperforming, then we should introduce changes which specifically target heavily armored Scouts. Greater movement penalties for armor plates on Scouts, for example.

If Rattati tells us that heavily shielded Scouts are overperforming, then we should introduce changes which specifically target heavily shielded Scouts. Greater recharge/delay penalties for extenders on Scouts, for example.

how ever the caldari scout just needs it hit box fixed. you can shoot at them if they are strafing you might get 1 out of 10 hip fired shots with any of the ar style rifles. I have seen a bacis caldari dance 15 meters in front of a assault suit with an assault rail rifle in open ground and not even take 1/3 of the scouts shield.

Any speed tanked suit can do this. It's what happens when AA meets a fast suit in medium range and is common to all types of scouts (provided they're not loaded down with armor) and even Min Assaults. It seems to get worse with lower framerate. I don't believe it's unique to the cal scout's hitbox.

Thats the worst explanation. If you read closley all three are same roll accept min. Scouts should not be able to stack hp like they currently do.

Gallante is an espionage scout (4 dampeners if you really need em) the minmitar is the hunter with 3 high and low slots for a balanced role (hacking, tanking with shield and armor, counter espionage, espionage) and can run any of the 4 roles. Just not as well as the racial scouts