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[FEEDBACK]Forge Gun Splash Changes

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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2686	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:15:00 - [1] - Quote As much as I loathe admitting this, once splash is removed from the standard and breach forge guns they are likely to be dropped utterly to the back burner by most forge gunners. This is not a call to cancel, but plan to adjust for the change in echo. At this point the assault forge will have all of the advantages and only one major comparative drawback, the inability to hold a charge and one minor, which is the unstable reticle. Standard and Breach forge guns are already used as primary sniper weapons by heavies too lazy to SP into sniper rifles and commandos. This change will see most forge sentiels simply swap to the assault forge. As it stands the Assault Forge gun: Hits harder than a standard forge gun Has higher DPS than the Breach Forge Gun Largest splash radius (and most damaging) Identical range. Higher efficacy vs infantry and LAVs. Higher overall efficacy against dropships. (They can charge fast enough for killshot chances) Higher efficacy vs. Tanks (faster fire rate, excellent damage) Drawbacks: Inability to hold a charge. I don't know a single dedicated forge gunner who thinks this drawback is enough to cramp their style. Shaky reticle: creates margin for error. You can miss shots because of this, but there are ways to adjust to the problem and minimize the impact. I have some very specific ideas on how to adjust in the wake of the splash nerf but I would like to hear the thoughts of others and constructive ideas to adjust because in my opinion the intended changes (which do not bother me) will relegate the standard forge to "oversize sniper rifle." I consider this to be a problem, not one that is critical to the game as a whole, but I also consider it to be an opportunity. While in the past I have objected to this in the past, the removal of splash from standard and breach should probably come with a buff to the standard forges in AV, while reducing the AV capacity of the assault forge gun vs. AV in favor of antipersonnel and LAV killing (with shorter ranges) duty if it will retain splash. As I said I have very specific ideas on how, but would appreciate feedback from other gunners and vehicle users that is more constructive than ideas to entirely nerf the gun line. If the devs would like to weigh in their thoughts here I would appreciate their input. I know GM Archduke is a forge gunner, and he might have some insight along this slant.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3043	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:37:00 - [2] - Quote I like to sniper with a forgegun, and I feel that the removal of splash is kinda unrealistic specially for a rail projectile. It would be more realistic if splash was increased and damage severely reduce, like 10 damage, to kinda show an effect of the projectile being obliterated by the sheer force on impact. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12070	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:51:00 - [3] - Quote 10-20 damage but with a splash of 15m. For the lulz Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3044	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:54:00 - [4] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: 10-20 damage but with a splash of 15m. For the lulz The amount of orbitals from assist kills supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2688	Posted - 2014.09.09 11:59:00 - [5] - Quote My thought is that if splash is removed it means that the railgun is intended to be a hypervelocity kinetic slug heated by friction in a manner similar to incendiary heat penetration rounds used in modern machineguns on a larger scale. It's basically how an APDS does damage. Only from a railgun at mach 5. The keeping of an explosive blast would indicate a explosive charge involved. But realisticallyif this is a thing the forge line needs to be adjusted. One forge gun to rule them all seems like bad ground to tread. I already only bother with the standard and breach when I feel like being lazy and blapping people from 200m. Not very often. I prefer to tear ass in close. My favorite range to tackle tanks is 20m with the AFG
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1266	Posted - 2014.09.09 22:15:00 - [6] - Quote Agreed, the Assault FG was already superior to others. Even less reason to use others. Except in countersniping purposes, where splash removal has no effect has direct hits are the killing shots. Actually, removing splash just might make normal FG better. Because if you slightly miss your initial shot, the sniper does not get alerted "OMG my health HIDE!" as such. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2043	Posted - 2014.09.09 22:40:00 - [7] - Quote The forge chart should go: AFG: Higher dps, low alpha Regular: Mid dps, mod alpha Breach: Lower dps, high alpha The assault should be the best, but only of you're skilled enough without holding the charge. STD of you want better dps but aren't too skilled without being able to hold the charge. Breach is kind of niche, but I see it working well with other AV on targets that tend to get away easily (like, omg, ADSs. Fire a breach and a swarm and it's almost guaranteed to kill it) As far as splash goes, I have no opinion atm. Honestly, most kills I get are either with an assault or through direct impacts anyway.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6869	Posted - 2014.09.09 23:58:00 - [8] - Quote The only thing we wanted was to increase the risk to rooftop forgegunners blapping the console. This scenario: line up perfectly, back away, hold the charge, walk 3 steps, release, charge another, if shot, retreat back, regain full health. Timing this with an Assault Forge is more difficult. The other changes mentioned here are all fine, and something we can keep tweaking over time. Breach, high alpha, low ROF and DPS, maybe longer range, no movement Standard, your normal DPS and range, medium alpha, medium range, primarily AV and heavy-counter Assault, high dps, low alpha, lower range, splash "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Rusty Shallows Caldari State 2136	Posted - 2014.09.10 02:05:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: snip Drawbacks: Inability to hold a charge. I don't know a single dedicated forge gunner who thinks this drawback is enough to cramp their style. snip That's somewhat misleading. It's a big enough drawback that some people advocated going over to cheap Militia FG fits. Others pointed out an advantage since the charge-for-fir retinal nerfing adds a risk of premature release. Breakin Stuff wrote: snip Shaky reticle: creates margin for error. You can miss shots because of this, but there are ways to adjust to the problem and minimize the impact. The old forced crouched for better aiming was a fair trade back in the day. Has it changed since Uprising 1.7? FGs can't be tweaked as half of the problem is Large Rail Turrets. Prior to last December I was working on a post to suggest a standardization of Dirrect-Fire-Massive-Alpha-Damage-Weapons as a group. Then everything went crazy and It seemed pointless. The whole variant weapon options has gotten this game in trouble many times. Tragic we couldn't focus on one weapon and getting it to fit a role and then carefully add variants. Standard FGs were not functioning properly in Open Beta and nothing was done to make the more useful. If it wasn't for the AFGs people would have either complained until something was done or simply not use any FGs. I don't think anything can be fixed until a structured plan for vehicle survivability/durability is figured out. Then the damages sources and the risk/reward relationship worked out from that. Or vise versa and a structured plan for damage sources and adjusting vehicle survivability/durability from that. God bless all of you people who are trying. Tweaking is looking to be the only option now. Likes are my candy and in these forums every day is Halloween. XD Sweets for everyone! Forums > Game
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2699	Posted - 2014.09.10 02:57:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The only thing we wanted was to increase the risk to rooftop forgegunners blapping the console. This scenario: line up perfectly, back away, hold the charge, walk 3 steps, release, charge another, if shot, retreat back, regain full health. Timing this with an Assault Forge is more difficult. The other changes mentioned here are all fine, and something we can keep tweaking over time. Breach, high alpha, low ROF and DPS, maybe longer range, no movement Standard, your normal DPS and range, medium alpha, medium range, primarily AV and heavy-counter Assault, high dps, low alpha, lower range, splash Oh no, that was intuitively understood as the intent from the word "go." The change to splash isn't one I believe is a problem at all. I'm just thinking: unintended side-effects. Planned change good, just pointing out the issues I forsee cropping up. Hell there's probably more. I'm not psychic. Thanks for the response.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2706	Posted - 2014.09.10 11:34:00 - [11] - Quote How much leeway is there to change a weapon? Do they pretty much have to function the same way or can they be changed up to do other things when you're talking about variants? I have ideas, I don't want to bother with something if it's not going to be something that can be approved for use anyway.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 723	Posted - 2014.09.10 13:46:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The only thing we wanted was to increase the risk to rooftop forgegunners blapping the console. This scenario: line up perfectly, back away, hold the charge, walk 3 steps, release, charge another, if shot, retreat back, regain full health. Timing this with an Assault Forge is more difficult. The other changes mentioned here are all fine, and something we can keep tweaking over time. Breach, high alpha, low ROF and DPS, maybe longer range, no movement Standard, your normal DPS and range, medium alpha, medium range, primarily AV and heavy-counter Assault, high dps, low alpha, lower range, splash My interpretation: Breach, use teamwork to gank Standard, don't use Assault, highest DPS against vehicles, best variant against infantry, use this I think that increased dispersion is a much superior way of nerfing FG snipers while maintaining the std FG's ability to deal with infantry, if it is technically possible to have dispersion apply to the first shot.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 444	Posted - 2014.09.10 17:38:00 - [13] - Quote If anything you should have left the splash on the breach... If someone gets hit with the splash from that, they're going to get chance to run away. But leaving it on the fast firing variant is just asking for the pew-pewing of objectives to stay.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2710	Posted - 2014.09.10 17:48:00 - [14] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: If anything you should have left the splash on the breach... If someone gets hit with the splash from that, they're going to get chance to run away. But leaving it on the fast firing variant is just asking for the pew-pewing of objectives to stay. actually the standard versions were better for that. Easier to blap with.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 444	Posted - 2014.09.10 18:11:00 - [15] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: If anything you should have left the splash on the breach... If someone gets hit with the splash from that, they're going to get chance to run away. But leaving it on the fast firing variant is just asking for the pew-pewing of objectives to stay. actually the standard versions were better for that. Easier to blap with. I'd argue that the standard version was easier to direct hit with, while the assault was better at killing via continues splash damage... Meanwhile the Breach has a mega charge time, forces you to stand still and get shot yourself, and only allows aiming with 1 stick. Edit - But really I don't see the point of leaving splash damage on any of them.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2710	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:48:00 - [16] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: If anything you should have left the splash on the breach... If someone gets hit with the splash from that, they're going to get chance to run away. But leaving it on the fast firing variant is just asking for the pew-pewing of objectives to stay. actually the standard versions were better for that. Easier to blap with. I'd argue that the standard version was easier to direct hit with, while the assault was better at killing via continues splash damage... Meanwhile the Breach has a mega charge time, forces you to stand still and get shot yourself, and only allows aiming with 1 stick. Edit - But really I don't see the point of leaving splash damage on any of them. I'd trade splash on the assault for more ammo in the magazine and carried.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1271	Posted - 2014.09.11 12:12:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The only thing we wanted was to increase the risk to rooftop forgegunners blapping the console. This scenario: There's been heavy threads earlier by King Kobrah here. Even though I don't agree with splash being the problem, the focus is on rooftop forge snipers. Still the good way to handle forge sniping would be to fix the cosmetic only charge up shake. SUGGESTION: Make forge shots go where the sight is while shaking And all forges should shake again while holding a charge (maybe maybe not breach) It is supposed to be a balancing factor for aiming, but it is just the shake of the gun and sights - the shot still goes dead center. Which can be abused by having tape/monitor feature - but in skilled hands even that is not required. Hence the forge sniping issue. Having the shake REALLY affect where the forge shot goes does the following: - It would still be possible to kill infantry at extreme range, but it would take both skill and a bit of luck. Not just to have red reticle. - Far better way than to nerf forge damage at range, that would make it purely close up weapon =( - Far better way than to nerf forge damage vs infantry, that shot should still kill. And nerfing vs infantry only would make fg users even more defenseless against AR infantry in close - Shake would make it harder to lock down the entire map by forging from top of skyscrapers. It would still be possible to harass and occasionally kill, even tanks, but not godlike total domination - Forge would be still very powerful as it would still be easy to hit up to medium range (AV especially). AV implications of NOT having the shake: - Currently it is very hard to balance dropships as they have to face anti HAV weapons full on, even at extreme ranges. Shake would make DSs life easier (note that because that has NOT been the case, DSs were given protection by adding a lot of HP. Which in turn partially lead to swarm ineffectivity... Everything affects everything.) - Forge ranges were nerfed hard from 600m to 300m. The reason for the nerf was: Too effective at extreme range. Killing tanks, DSs and countersniping redline infantry. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1527	Posted - 2014.09.11 13:20:00 - [18] - Quote God damn I feel as if half the people talking about forges have never even used them! I might be by myself here but for infantry sniping the militia forge does just fine. I for one much prefer the ability to hold a charge to more damage and a faster firing sequence. Apart from the odd proto tanked out suit, even the Militia forge (with my skills) will one shot pretty much 95% of suits out there. And let me be clear, removing the splash wont do a damn thing to stop objective camping with a forge. But go ahead, remove the splash, anyone proficient with the forge wont really notice the removal anyway. It just means clearing equipment will be a pain in the ass, that's all. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 599	Posted - 2014.09.11 13:40:00 - [19] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: I for one much prefer the ability to hold a charge to more damage and a faster firing sequence. lolforgenoobs
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2720	Posted - 2014.09.11 16:01:00 - [20] - Quote Hey kerosini the only forge gun effective at shooting ADS down (without help) ias the assault forge. The barrel never stabilized and the final destination of your shot wobbles like a drunk. It's the only forge capable of pulling the triple shot needed to pop an ADS and the third shot is where it gets iffy. Everything else fires too slowly to kill anything but a thundering idiot. Even tanks usually escape. Its why most forge gunners use the assault to begin with. Past that teamwork is OP and forge guns should not be nerfed so you can feel safer in your dropship.

Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 177	Posted - 2014.09.13 12:09:00 - [21] - Quote I really don't see why forges need splash. They are av..dust isn't balanced ed on realism. And standard forge will still be used just because some people can't use assault forge for ****... If the assault is the only one that will be sniping it'll be great no more no skill forgers with mlt forges flinging death from towers :) no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 212	Posted - 2014.09.13 14:01:00 - [22] - Quote Yeah, I'll be using absolutely nothing but my assault variant after delta. A giant ball of energy not having any splash damage (dispersion of displaced energy at the point of combustion) is just a stupid concept. Also, I like to be able to actually defend myself with it when an a**hole comes at me with a shotgun or nova knives. Also on a side note, shouldn't the forge do bonus Shield damage? You know, swarms are explosive so they do more to armor and stuff... There being only two AV guns in the game.... One for armor maybe one for shield... G.L.O.R.Y solider, Master of the Heavy (Amarr & Gallente)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2769	Posted - 2014.09.13 14:23:00 - [23] - Quote Mortishai Belmont wrote: Yeah, I'll be using absolutely nothing but my assault variant after delta. A giant ball of energy not having any splash damage (dispersion of displaced energy at the point of combustion) is just a stupid concept. Also, I like to be able to actually defend myself with it when an a**hole comes at me with a shotgun or nova knives. Also on a side note, shouldn't the forge do bonus Shield damage? You know, swarms are explosive so they do more to armor and stuff... There being only two AV guns in the game.... One for armor maybe one for shield... The plasma cannon is the shield av. The forge gun fires the big ball because tank drivers screamed about not being able to see the hugeass fatsuit firing the nickel-iron slug from the railgun.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4840	Posted - 2014.09.13 14:54:00 - [24] - Quote If anything the breach is the one that should be getting a TON of splash damage. You can't even move with the damn thing. Talk about vulnerable.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4091	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:46:00 - [25] - Quote Wont stop people using them. Alot of times people go for the direct hit and not the splash damage. And when you look at your "killmail" and it says that the enemy did 1400HP damage to you with a single hit then i assure you it wasnt due to splash. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 102	Posted - 2014.09.13 16:02:00 - [26] - Quote Dust User wrote: CommanderBolt wrote: I for one much prefer the ability to hold a charge to more damage and a faster firing sequence. lolforgenoobs I also use the standard variant. Does that make me FG noob, despite placing second in the event? Besides, standard lets you walk around corners and blap fatties in the face with your forge. Youtube channel
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1278	Posted - 2014.09.13 21:41:00 - [27] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Hey kerosini the only forge gun effective at shooting ADS down (without help) ias the assault forge. The barrel never stabilized and the final destination of your shot wobbles like a drunk. It's the only forge capable of pulling the triple shot needed to pop an ADS and the third shot is where it gets iffy. Everything else fires too slowly to kill anything but a thundering idiot. Even tanks usually escape. Its why most forge gunners use the assault to begin with. Past that teamwork is OP and forge guns should not be nerfed so you can feel safer in your dropship. Agreed, the assault is superior. And true, assault has the shake - but it is cosmetic only. The shot goes always to same pixel. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
CommanderBolt TerranProtossZerg 1583	Posted - 2014.09.14 01:54:00 - [28] - Quote Dust User wrote: CommanderBolt wrote: I for one much prefer the ability to hold a charge to more damage and a faster firing sequence. lolforgenoobs Get outta here man, I may not be the best but I feel I'm pretty reasonable with the forges ;-) For purely infantry sniping you waste too many shots with the assault forge, or should I say I do. I mean if you know of a video or something with someone showcasing assault forge sniping then I would genuinely love to see it! If I could snipe dudes as fast as that assault forge cycles.... pwwoaahhh! Forge heaven! And note I am only talking about soldier pewing, not vehicle massacres. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!


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