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Atiim wrote:

@manboar thunder fist

As for that Forge Gunner, considering how the max damage of an IAFG is 1983HP (1785HP against Shields), I highly doubt you're being truthful unless he hit your weakspot (which would be working as intended, as you exposed you weak spot).

He's not, unless it's a crap fit Python. One thing about hardeners: they're good, when they're on, but even complex hardeners have a crazy cool down, taking a pilot out of the fight longer than if he had simply retreated. I don't find them very useful and think they actually turn to the AVer's favor.

The typical passive tanked python has about 3-3.1k shield ehp, so by your own numbers it takes 3 shots to down a Python. The first hit is granted because the Python is unaware, and now the second shot is charging. By the time the pilot has assessed the situation, activated his AB, and began the acceleration away (typically up), the second shot is either shot or almost there. Since the python has a 125m/s velocity w/ an AB and the forge has a 400m range, the Python has 3.2 seconds to escape, so accounting for evasive maneuvering and acceleration, the forge does have a chance to kill it if he's a good shot.

You don't even need to "brick tank" to survive 3 volleys, but with that fitting I displayed you'd still be able to survive even if all 3 of the volleys were to connect, while still having ample time to escape outside of their lock range (1.73s).

I really don't believe that any 1 AVer should be able to easily solo an ADS, especially one fitted with an AB, that would be completely imbalanced if more than one AVer decided to fight. Now, you have to admit that even as an ADS pilot, you either runaway from AV or focus completely on it whenever it's attacking you. You have to, or else you'll die or you can't do what you were doing. This is AV's role: to deter and preoccupy vehicles, not necessarily kill them.

Yes, the Matari Commando is necessary if you have the intent of killing an Assault Dropship (or well built HAV). Without it, you're only dealing 1000HP, which can easily be negated by a Python touting a Shield Hardener (reducing it to 600HP).

See above. Killing shouldn't be the goal for a single AVer, deterrence should be.

No, Assault Dropships should not cost as much as AV fittings. AVers put themselves at risk to literally every weapon in the game besides Swarm Launchers and AV Grenades (which ironically are also AV weapons).

ADSs on the other hand, only put themselves at risk to AV weapons (less than 10% of the weapons in DUST 514), and KDSs. Because of this, your odds of dying are much less than the AVer, which equates to a higher price.

@Kallas Hallytyr

eHP includes the base Armor, not just Shield HP.

I usually find my armor to be inconsequential, but numbers are numbers I guess.

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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4702	Posted - 2014.09.01 22:25:00 - [31] - Quote Jammeh McJam wrote: Atiim wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 3 swarm volleys kill ads Can't comment on the other claims, but this claim is false. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true. - Pro(5) Swarmer They do as long as the person doesn't run and doesn't tank. Tank as in like 3100 shield python and 4000+ armor incubus. My 2555 shield dies in 3 volleys easy to pro 5 swarmser. Proficiency doesn't effect Shield Damage, so with the -20% you've got 3834 eHP against a Swarm Launcher. 3 Volleys deals 3744HP, so you'll be left with 90HP (dangerously low). However, you should already be out of their lock range well before 4.2s anyways. That is assuming however, that they aren't using Damage Modifiers... Atiim noone tanks dropships... Now I'm confused. One pilot says 3 proto volleys are guaranteed to drop an ADS. The next pilot says only if they're high proficiency and damage amp'd. The next pilot says only if the ADS isn't HP tanked. The next pilot says no one HP tanks an ADS. So which is it? PS: I run damage amp'd proficiency 5 proto swarms; I have never solo'd a Python or Incubus; I have landed an entire clip on numerous occasions. PPS: I don't think I should be able to solo a Python or Incubus in one clip. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3066	Posted - 2014.09.01 22:26:00 - [32] - Quote Jammeh McJam wrote: Atiim wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 3 swarm volleys kill ads Can't comment on the other claims, but this claim is false. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true. - Pro(5) Swarmer They do as long as the person doesn't run and doesn't tank. Tank as in like 3100 shield python and 4000+ armor incubus. My 2555 shield dies in 3 volleys easy to pro 5 swarmser. Proficiency doesn't effect Shield Damage, so with the -20% you've got 3834 eHP against a Swarm Launcher. 3 Volleys deals 3744HP, so you'll be left with 90HP (dangerously low). However, you should already be out of their lock range well before 4.2s anyways. That is assuming however, that they aren't using Damage Modifiers... Atiim noone tanks dropships... Snugglz did and while Derrith active tanks his when he hits his shield booster he gains 900 shield and 2555+900=3455 3455*20%=4146 ehp vs swarms. Tanker/Logi/Assault
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 99	Posted - 2014.09.01 23:05:00 - [33] - Quote Shooter Somewhere wrote: 2 particle cannon shots take out ads 3 swarm volleys kill ads 2 afg shots destroy ads 1 40k gorgon rammer burns ads 1 bump with a building decimates ads 1: Wrong. 7-8 kill your ADS you must have poor skills if it takes only 2. 2: only 3? suggest your a wanna be python stomper which is why. and my python it takes 4 and im out on the 1st so you suck 3: 2 AFK? it should take 3. again what a poorly built ADS. 4. a 40k burns your ADS? WRONG AGAIN. it evaporates it in mid air. 5. your a really crap pilot I have to be throw into a building by AV. my inc rams into buildings to straighten it out my ptython handles itself fine on a little bump. practice with Myron's first buddy sure AV is OP but that does not mean everything else that wants to kill you is as well. 1. Do you even pc bro? 2 shots from a dmg mod particle cannon will wreck 2. 3 wirykomi swarm volleys with dmg mods or proficiency or minmando will kill the average ads. A fw brick tank variations might survive in couple hundred hp 3. You clearly don't play against the best forge gunners so don't even comment 4. What is even your point here? My gorgon costs 26000 5. If a swarm launcher knocks me into something I die. Must you insult your intelligence by resorting to name calling? It's adapt that drop ships have unique texture properties different to tanks resulting in high collision damage Please get good before you comment on someone else's ability to Fly or ill rip your python a new one NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 99	Posted - 2014.09.01 23:19:00 - [34] - Quote The last thing I want is an op ads... It needs to be a high skill vehicle sure But remember pilots need to learn to fly too... You can't simply comment on the best pilots like derrith and espeon... Anyone with a swarm launcher can use it. How are people meant to learn to fly with the av ideas you are suggesting? I myself run an av swarm commando with gauged hives and a gal sentinel with iafg... If you have any issues with vehicle survivabilitu I am willing to sit there and let you shoot at me provided you pay when I am shown to be correct and die NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2544	Posted - 2014.09.01 23:34:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Now I'm confused. One pilot says 3 proto swarm volleys are guaranteed to drop any ADS. The next pilot says only if the swarms are high proficiency and damage amp'd. The next pilot says only if the ADS isn't HP tanked. The next pilot says no one HP tanks the ADS. So which is it? PS: I run damage amp'd proficiency 5 proto swarms; I have never solo'd a Python or Incubus; I have landed an entire clip on both on numerous, separate occasions. PPS: I don't think any swarmer should be able to solo a Python or Incubus in one clip. One pilot is wrong the next pilot is only half right the next pilot is right the next pilot is clearly not a proper pilot, 95% of all ADS fits I've seen have some form of tank on them. Watch this video to lose your panties
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1953	Posted - 2014.09.01 23:57:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Now I'm confused. One pilot says 3 proto swarm volleys are guaranteed to drop any ADS. The next pilot says only if the swarms are high proficiency and damage amp'd. The next pilot says only if the ADS isn't HP tanked. The next pilot says no one HP tanks the ADS. So which is it? PS: I run damage amp'd proficiency 5 proto swarms; I have never solo'd a Python or Incubus; I have landed an entire clip on both on numerous, separate occasions. PPS: I don't think any swarmer should be able to solo a Python or Incubus in one clip. It doesn't matter specific numbers. All that matters is that unless the ADS retreats, it will be dead soon. When it retreats, you've won for now. It is an undeniable FACT that every form of AV is guaranteed to prevent the ADS from doing what it wants to do. It is impossible for ANY ADS, not matter how tanky or agile, to ignore any form of AV and keep even 50% of its killing potential. The AV will either threaten the ADS through continuous fire, thus forcing the ADS to flee, or will knock the ADS around so much it will be unable to target anything. Every AV proponent in this freakin' game is too myopic (there's a new one for your vocabulary). They don't see how distracting they are and how much thought I have to put into countering them. If they put as much thought into countering ME, they'd really give me a run for my money (I know, because I have an alt that has specced into swarms and I've wrecked ADSs. And I'm only lvl3 using a CBR and a Min Assault for Christ's sake!)
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 100	Posted - 2014.09.02 00:45:00 - [37] - Quote Forge guns are already impressive at killing drop ships... They can target from 300 m You don't even render for me at 300m... Forge guns require a degree of skill in aiming. Swarms can fire 3 volleys in less than 5 seconds. A pilot should not be forced to run complex 120mm plate just to "survive" 1 swam launcher Tanks can kill infantry much more efficiently and have higher base hp than all but one special fit of ads, a fit that results in a repair rate of 75/s +25% with skills. I would suggest a buff to assault swarms giving them a faster speed but less damage for drop ships. The standard swarms would travel slower but pack a larger punch. This would finally give it a purpose and add some speciality vs ds in comparison to tanks. Undoubtedly commandos carrying an assault and a standard swarm would be extreme av specialists prepared for both threats NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
Atiim 11793	Posted - 2014.09.02 00:52:00 - [38] - Quote @manboar thunder fist Good job on that Strawman. Though if you must know, I do indeed fly Assault Dropships and I can even show you in-game if you'd like. As for that Forge Gunner, considering how the max damage of an IAFG is 1983HP (1785HP against Shields), I highly doubt you're being truthful unless he hit your weakspot (which would be working as intended, as you exposed you weakspot). You don't even need to "brick tank" to survive 3 volleys, but with that fitting I displayed you'd still be able to survive even if all 3 of the volleys were to connect, while still having ample time to escape outside of their lock range (1.73s). Yes, the Matari Commando is necessary if you have the intent of killing an Assault Dropship (or well built HAV). Without it, you're only dealing 1000HP, which can easily be negated by a Python touting a Shield Hardener (reducing it to 600HP). That's less than what a MLT AV Grenade would be. At that point you'd be better off trying to kill it with a Breach MD. No, Assault Dropships should not cost as much as AV fittings. AVers put themselves at risk to literally every weapon in the game besides Swarm Launchers and AV Grenades (which ironically are also AV weapons). ADSs on the other hand, only put themselves at risk to AV weapons (less than 10% of the weapons in DUST 514), and KDSs. Because of this, your odds of dying are much less than the AVer, which equates to a higher price. @Kallas Hallytyr eHP includes the base Armor, not just Shield HP. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 100	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:07:00 - [39] - Quote Max dmg with or without dmg mods? Why should an ads have a weak spot like that anyway? Swarms always chase from behind if an ads is running and so will always connect on the weak spot if they can catch up to a fleeing ads... At that mark the extra damage would kill the ads you claimed "would be on low hp". Maybe it should be a tiny panel like tanks have to genuinely make it a skill shot. Love how you change your numbers so easily... 600 dmg to suit your cause and shock the audience when you mentioned 3 swarms do 3744 earlier . A hardener is an active module and once it's down the ads must retreat... Not like it can stay for long with the hardener anyway NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
Atiim 11793	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:08:00 - [40] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: PPS: I don't think any swarmer should be able to solo a Python or Incubus in one clip. Indeed. The only vehicle that should ever go down in 3 Swarms are: LAVs Base / Poorly Fitted HAVs Base / Poorly Fitted DSs Base / Poorly Fitted ADSs DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND

Joel II X Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3235	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:10:00 - [41] - Quote Lies. An adv swarm won't kill an ads with three err swarms. At least the Pythons. Then again... 0 prof and not on a minmatar Commando...
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 100	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:11:00 - [42] - Quote The point of this thread is not to debate on the ehp and fittings of various pilots... But to ensure swarms aren't continuously buffed until they give no ads a chance like you're rooting for them to be. And your "vulnerable to others argument " doesn't work here, flux grenades can down a python flying low, tanks shoot at ads pilots, people try to ram, not to mention we are all constantly engaged in a battle against each other for air superiority NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 100	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:14:00 - [43] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Lies. An adv swarm won't kill an ads with three err swarms. At least the Pythons. Then again... 0 prof and not on a minmatar Commando... Depends on the fit. It won't get a 4247 inky or a 2555 hardened/boosted python By I've killed ads proto pilots with dmg mods on cbr7s when they don't run away after the first 2 volleys NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1959	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:18:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: @manboar thunder fist As for that Forge Gunner, considering how the max damage of an IAFG is 1983HP (1785HP against Shields), I highly doubt you're being truthful unless he hit your weakspot (which would be working as intended, as you exposed you weak spot). He's not, unless it's a crap fit Python. One thing about hardeners: they're good, when they're on, but even complex hardeners have a crazy cool down, taking a pilot out of the fight longer than if he had simply retreated. I don't find them very useful and think they actually turn to the AVer's favor. The typical passive tanked python has about 3-3.1k shield ehp, so by your own numbers it takes 3 shots to down a Python. The first hit is granted because the Python is unaware, and now the second shot is charging. By the time the pilot has assessed the situation, activated his AB, and began the acceleration away (typically up), the second shot is either shot or almost there. Since the python has a 125m/s velocity w/ an AB and the forge has a 400m range, the Python has 3.2 seconds to escape, so accounting for evasive maneuvering and acceleration, the forge does have a chance to kill it if he's a good shot. You don't even need to "brick tank" to survive 3 volleys, but with that fitting I displayed you'd still be able to survive even if all 3 of the volleys were to connect, while still having ample time to escape outside of their lock range (1.73s). I really don't believe that any 1 AVer should be able to easily solo an ADS, especially one fitted with an AB, that would be completely imbalanced if more than one AVer decided to fight. Now, you have to admit that even as an ADS pilot, you either runaway from AV or focus completely on it whenever it's attacking you. You have to, or else you'll die or you can't do what you were doing. This is AV's role: to deter and preoccupy vehicles, not necessarily kill them. Yes, the Matari Commando is necessary if you have the intent of killing an Assault Dropship (or well built HAV). Without it, you're only dealing 1000HP, which can easily be negated by a Python touting a Shield Hardener (reducing it to 600HP). See above. Killing shouldn't be the goal for a single AVer, deterrence should be. No, Assault Dropships should not cost as much as AV fittings. AVers put themselves at risk to literally every weapon in the game besides Swarm Launchers and AV Grenades (which ironically are also AV weapons). ADSs on the other hand, only put themselves at risk to AV weapons (less than 10% of the weapons in DUST 514), and KDSs. Because of this, your odds of dying are much less than the AVer, which equates to a higher price. @Kallas Hallytyr eHP includes the base Armor, not just Shield HP. I usually find my armor to be inconsequential, but numbers are numbers I guess. My responses in italics.
Atiim 11793	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:19:00 - [45] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Max dmg with or without dmg mods? Why should an ads have a weak spot like that anyway? Swarms always chase from behind if an ads is running and so will always connect on the weak spot if they can catch up to a fleeing ads... At that mark the extra damage would kill the ads you claimed "would be on low hp". Maybe it should be a tiny panel like tanks have to genuinely make it a skill shot. ADSs should have weakspots so that they'll be punished for standing there in one spot without being aware of their surroundings. It's not an issue if you're constantly rotating. Though that situation would only happen if you were running in a perfectly straight line, which shouldn't be a valid way of evading Swarms anyways. manboar thunder fist wrote: Love how you change your numbers so easily... 600 dmg to suit your cause and shock the audience when you mentioned 3 swarms do 3744 earlier . A hardener is an active module and once it's down the ads must retreat... Not like it can stay for long with the hardener anyway In that case I'm referring to damage per volley. When I mentioned values such as 3k or 4k I was referring to an entire clip. Though I admit that it could be misleading if misinterpreted, so I'll clarify here. If that pilot is running a Shield Hardener, you'll only be dealing 1800 DPM (damage per magazine), which is still pathetically low. Though I fail to see how ADSs being forced to retreat when their mods are down is a problem. You seem to forget that current HAVs are balanced around a "waves of opportunity" philosophy. edit: Isn't there a skill which increases the Up-time of Modules, as well as another skill which decreases their downtime? Perhaps you should should spec into those. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 100	Posted - 2014.09.02 01:30:00 - [46] - Quote Sorry your highness but incubus hardeners are pathetic . The weak spots are excessively large and aren't hard to hit at all, they can be seen from all angles of the ship. Swarms can also cut corners, be invisible and knockback dropships. It seems the majority of problems you point out involve pythons tanking present av. Perhaps the lack of anti shield av and the current armor tipped explosive damage profiles are the issue that should be addressed rather than flat buffs. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 970	Posted - 2014.09.02 03:19:00 - [47] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Now I'm confused. One pilot says 3 proto swarm volleys are guaranteed to drop any ADS. The next pilot says only if the swarms are high proficiency and damage amp'd. The next pilot says only if the ADS isn't HP tanked. The next pilot says no one HP tanks the ADS. So which is it? PS: I run damage amp'd proficiency 5 proto swarms; I have never solo'd a Python or Incubus; I have landed an entire clip on both on numerous, separate occasions. PPS: I don't think any swarmer should be able to solo a Python or Incubus in one clip. Well, what I can tell you for a fact is this: my Python has 3100+ something shields (not ingame right now). 3 volleys of proto swarms without dmg mods take down my shields to 180. Next volley kills me if I don't have time to recharge shields. Now, what I prefer to do is fight, not run. So I take your 3 volleys and hope to every miracle there are that there's no more AV and try to kill you during your reload, if I fail, I'm dead, afterburner will not save me anymore at that point. If I try to kill you while you are not reloading I have to be very lucky to land a shot / enough shots to kill you with all the knockback going on.
rob cap lad Savage Bullet 5	Posted - 2014.09.07 11:29:00 - [48] - Quote [quote=manboar thunder fist]Before you assume the worst let me point out a few facts: 2 particle cannon shots take out ads 3 swarm volleys kill ads 2 afg shots destroy ads 1 40k gorgon rammer burns ads 1 bump with a building decimates ads Also consider this: Even with afterburner on after 1st volley hits the second volley of swarm always connects With 1 volley of swarms it is possible for fg to 1 shot ads Afterburner provides acceleration boost NOT speed boost Fuel injector does provide speed boost Typical ads costs 500k and requires sp in vehicles, dropships, assault dropships, factional dropships, armour upgrades, armour optimisation, armour repair, armour composition, shield upgrades, shield optimisation, shield depleted recharge, core skills and all small turret skills. Typical proto swarm requires any dropsuit, weaponry, light weaponry and swarm launcher + proficiency and reload. And costs 60k Losing an ads a match is not viable economically. Currently swarms severely damage and kill ads in one clip... The good pilots use their afterburner and flight skills to dodge the 3rd volley of swarms. There are maye maximum 200 ads pilots, 30 max do pc There are countless swarm launchers and any 2 av infantry working together will kill ads easily as you know manboar i have my swarm maxed and a lvl 4 mim commando and how fast did i kill yo? what i 2 shots ya i have expericencd both ads and swarms but i think the swarms are even right. but loseing a 500k ads is stupid i mean us swarms but theres no way we should lose 500k that fast right. supp buds if you need a logi or av guy you came to the right place mail me if u do rob cap lad


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