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Atiim
11769
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Posted - 2014.09.01 03:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
manboar thunder fist wrote:Before you assume the worst let me point out a few facts:
2 particle cannon shots take out ads
3 swarm volleys kill ads
2 afg shots destroy ads
1 40k gorgon rammer burns ads
1 bump with a building decimates ads
3 Volleys do not kill a Python. With 2 Shield Extenders I can get it to 3886 eHP, which is enough to negate 3 volleys of a maxed out Swarm Launcher (3294HP), while still having an Afterburner to escape if I'm stupid enough to stand there.
As for the Incubus, 2 Armor Plates allows you to get to 5011 eHP, which is also enough to negate 3 volleys from a maxed out Swarm Launcher (4547HP), and still having Armor Reps and an Afterburner to escape with ease.
2 AFG shots wouldn't kill either of these builds; crashing into buildings and being rammed by MLT Dropships are issues only faced by incompetent pilots.
manboar thunder fist wrote:Also consider this:
Even with afterburner on after 1st volley hits the second volley of swarm always connects
False. I've been hit by the first volley but managed to outrun the second numerous times.
With 1 volley of swarms it is possible for fg to 1 shot ads
Sure if you've got a Base Python standing still and exposing it's weakspot. Otherwise run a single FG shot (even Wyrikomi Breach) will not OHK an ADS of any kind. As for SL volleys, a single volley can't even OHK a MLT LAV.
Afterburner provides acceleration boost NOT speed boost
False. Afterburners yield a 150% Air Speed increase.
Fuel injector does provide speed boost
manboar thunder fist wrote:Typical ads costs 500k and requires sp in vehicles, dropships, assault dropships, factional dropships, armour upgrades, armour optimisation, armour repair, armour composition, shield upgrades, shield optimisation, shield depleted recharge, core skills and all small turret skills.
Typical proto swarm requires any dropsuit, weaponry, light weaponry and swarm launcher + proficiency and reload. And costs 60k
Sure, any Dropsuit can use a Swarm Launcher, but if you have the intent on actually killing things, you'll need to get a Minmatar Commando.
With that in mind, let's look at all the skills needed
- Dropsuit Command III
- Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits III
- Minmatar Commando Dropsuits V
- Dropsuit Upgrades I
- Dropsuit Core Upgrades III
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Electronics V
- Armor Plating III
- Armor Repair Systems III
- Dropsuit Engineering V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Weaponry IV
- Light Weapon Operation IV
- Swarm Launcher Operation V
- Swarm Launcher Proficiency V
- Swarm Launcher Reload Speed V
- Swarm Launcher Ammo Capacity V
- Combat Rifle Operation V
- Combat Rifle Proficiency III
Note: Combat Rifle skills are necessary unless you intend to run nothing but a Swarm Launcher on you AV suit, in which case even an Ion Pistol will kill you with ease. Prof. III is needed as it'll allow you to kill Sentinels if they hop out of their vehicle.
There are other skills which can improve your AV rig, but they aren't exactly nessescities so I removed them from the list. Though with the skills you stated, your AV rig will be getting killed by Flaylocks as you have no secondary.
As for only being 60k ISK, let me show you an optimal Swarm Launcher fitting.
It allows you to carry 4 Nanohives, which removes the ability for Pilots to wear you down via attrition, you have the ability to fight back if they hop out the vehicle, you have a good 'tank', and you're dealing maximum SL damage.
The cost of this suit is actually 142,665 ISK, which assumes that you don't die at all (which is unlikely when facing a good Pilot and/or competent Infantry units).
manboar thunder fist wrote:Losing an ads a match is not viable economically.
Which will be changed in Hotfix Delta.
manboar thunder fist wrote:Currently swarms severely damage and kill ads in one clip... The good pilots use their afterburner and flight skills to dodge the 3rd volley of swarms. There are maye maximum 200 ads pilots, 30 max do pc
There are countless swarm launchers and any 2 av infantry working together will kill ads easily
See my earlier refute to your "kill in 1 clip" assertion. Quantity does not equate to Quality, so the second assertion is null.
Though V/AV balance (or any balance for that matter) is balanced based on a 1v1 engagement, so your final assertion is irrelevant in the same sense that me saying 2 ADSs will kill anything with ease is irrelevant.
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Atiim
11785
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Posted - 2014.09.01 15:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jammeh McJam wrote:@ atiim, can you link to the post where you heard that ADS price was being reduced in delta? It was supposed to be in charlie but it was taken out at the last minute, and i've seen nothing about it being in delta. The ONLY way to survive swarms in an ADS is to run, once swarms are made faster then that will no longer be possible.
CCP Rattati said that he was willing to make them cheaper
CCP Rattati wrote:
I would rather not go into this bitter dispute, but let's make something absolutely clear. An ADS pilot, can, with afterburners literally always avoid death. A solo swarm can not destroy an ADS, much less in 5 seconds and certainly not "every time he shows his face". The good pilots all know and admit this and are running crazy KDR's, especially if two proto swarmers and one proto forger are what is necessary to down an ADS, then one must admit it is in a good place. We are however, willing to make the ADS cheaper to fly so more people can skill into and enjoy them, and make swarm turn radius less drastic so skilled pilots can do combat maneuvers around buildings and terrain to avoid them.
While it's not a clear cut confirmation, one could make the logical assumption that since he's willing to make these changes now, it'll end up with Hotfix Delta.
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
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Atiim
11788
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Posted - 2014.09.01 17:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Anmol Singh wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:manboar thunder fist wrote:
3 swarm volleys kill ads
Can't comment on the other claims, but this claim is false. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true. - Pro(5) Swarmer They do as long as the person doesn't run and doesn't tank. Tank as in like 3100 shield python and 4000+ armor incubus. My 2555 shield dies in 3 volleys easy to pro 5 swarmser.
Proficiency doesn't effect Shield Damage, so with the -20% you've got 3834 eHP against a Swarm Launcher.
3 Volleys deals 3744HP, so you'll be left with 90HP (dangerously low). However, you should already be out of their lock range well before 4.2s anyways.
That is assuming however, that they aren't using Damage Modifiers...
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Atiim
11793
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Posted - 2014.09.02 00:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
@manboar thunder fist
Good job on that Strawman. Though if you must know, I do indeed fly Assault Dropships and I can even show you in-game if you'd like.
As for that Forge Gunner, considering how the max damage of an IAFG is 1983HP (1785HP against Shields), I highly doubt you're being truthful unless he hit your weakspot (which would be working as intended, as you exposed you weakspot).
You don't even need to "brick tank" to survive 3 volleys, but with that fitting I displayed you'd still be able to survive even if all 3 of the volleys were to connect, while still having ample time to escape outside of their lock range (1.73s).
Yes, the Matari Commando is necessary if you have the intent of killing an Assault Dropship (or well built HAV). Without it, you're only dealing 1000HP, which can easily be negated by a Python touting a Shield Hardener (reducing it to 600HP).
That's less than what a MLT AV Grenade would be. At that point you'd be better off trying to kill it with a Breach MD.
No, Assault Dropships should not cost as much as AV fittings. AVers put themselves at risk to literally every weapon in the game besides Swarm Launchers and AV Grenades (which ironically are also AV weapons).
ADSs on the other hand, only put themselves at risk to AV weapons (less than 10% of the weapons in DUST 514), and KDSs. Because of this, your odds of dying are much less than the AVer, which equates to a higher price.
@Kallas Hallytyr
eHP includes the base Armor, not just Shield HP.
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Atiim
11793
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Posted - 2014.09.02 01:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
PPS: I don't think any swarmer should be able to solo a Python or Incubus in one clip.
Indeed.
The only vehicle that should ever go down in 3 Swarms are:
- LAVs
- Base / Poorly Fitted HAVs
- Base / Poorly Fitted DSs
- Base / Poorly Fitted ADSs
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Atiim
11793
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Posted - 2014.09.02 01:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
manboar thunder fist wrote:Max dmg with or without dmg mods?
Why should an ads have a weak spot like that anyway? Swarms always chase from behind if an ads is running and so will always connect on the weak spot if they can catch up to a fleeing ads... At that mark the extra damage would kill the ads you claimed "would be on low hp". Maybe it should be a tiny panel like tanks have to genuinely make it a skill shot.
ADSs should have weakspots so that they'll be punished for standing there in one spot without being aware of their surroundings. It's not an issue if you're constantly rotating.
Though that situation would only happen if you were running in a perfectly straight line, which shouldn't be a valid way of evading Swarms anyways.
manboar thunder fist wrote:Love how you change your numbers so easily... 600 dmg to suit your cause and shock the audience when you mentioned 3 swarms do 3744 earlier
. A hardener is an active module and once it's down the ads must retreat... Not like it can stay for long with the hardener anyway
In that case I'm referring to damage per volley.
When I mentioned values such as 3k or 4k I was referring to an entire clip. Though I admit that it could be misleading if misinterpreted, so I'll clarify here.
If that pilot is running a Shield Hardener, you'll only be dealing 1800 DPM (damage per magazine), which is still pathetically low. Though I fail to see how ADSs being forced to retreat when their mods are down is a problem.
You seem to forget that current HAVs are balanced around a "waves of opportunity" philosophy.
edit: Isn't there a skill which increases the Up-time of Modules, as well as another skill which decreases their downtime? Perhaps you should should spec into those.
DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando
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