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Who should win the EWAR race, the scanner or the scanned?

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Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1393	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:06:00 - [1] - Quote In past builds, the maxed out scanner was always able to scan his enemies. As it sits today, a scout with a few dampners wins the EWAR race in that nobody can scan him. Which is right? Which is better for gameplay? Should the scanner or the scanned win the EWAR race?
NAV HIV The Generals Anime Empire. 2024	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:20:00 - [2] - Quote Specific Race + Specific Suit = Specialized Suites No longer a 1 scanner and 360 jump for all...
Thumb Green Raymond James Corp 1312	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:20:00 - [3] - Quote The scanner. I figure it's the same as cryptography, nothing is uncrackable. At the RJC we don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard. Fix supply depots
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 190	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:38:00 - [4] - Quote i dont see why someone using a piece of equipment, while giving up non of his defensive or killing power should always scan someone who is using all or most of his lows for damps deader than A line flares with pockets in the knees
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 4421	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:46:00 - [5] - Quote I think people should be able to get under scans, but I think it should be a situation where they are not a serious threat when doing so. They should be made of glass. I always thought it would be cool to have a stealth uplink. Like 5 spawns and it's done. In other words the completely undetectable scout comes in a drops an uplink, squad spawns in. What I don't like is a dude that is not detectable going beast mode killing everything that moves all game. Level 4 Forum Warrior Very, very bitter vet PSN: wbrom42
The Infected One Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1378	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:47:00 - [6] - Quote It should go to the damped unit. Only because scans are a squad shared feature, where as damps are only on a single unit. You can scan a whole area (passive or active) and your whole squad can see them, except for the super squishy guy who has used all his low slots for damps. If there was a mechanic in place or a piece of equipment that could dampen everyone within a specific range of said dampener, then I would say that it should go to the scanner, but as it sits right now, it has to go to the dampener. I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS? --. . - + ..-. ..- -.-. -.- . -..
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1394	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:48:00 - [7] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: i dont see why someone using a piece of equipment, while giving up non of his defensive or killing power should always scan someone who is using all or most of his lows for damps That's a good point, but remember there are both active and passive scanners, and your comments only apply to active scanners. What about passive scanning? Should the passive dampener always win the passive scanning race?
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 4421	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:49:00 - [8] - Quote The Infected One wrote: It should go to the damped unit. Only because scans are a squad shared feature, where as damps are only on a single unit. You can scan a whole area (passive or active) and your whole squad can see them, except for the super squishy guy who has used all his low slots for damps. If there was a mechanic in place or a piece of equipment that could dampen everyone within a specific range of said dampener, then I would say that it should go to the scanner, but as it sits right now, it has to go to the dampener. I actually agree with this. You win Level 4 Forum Warrior Very, very bitter vet PSN: wbrom42
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4529	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:49:00 - [9] - Quote No matter how hard I try, I can't hide my fat squadmates ... but I can see for them :-) Whatever value my scans have is multiplied as my squad size grows. My "hiding" skills do not scale, nor do they add value to my squad. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1603	Posted - 2014.08.27 18:57:00 - [10] - Quote Dampeners should win. BUT, only by a very small margin. As in, the best scanner, using all his slots to scan (or in GalLogis case, using the best scanner at lvl 5 GalLogi) should only be beat by someone using all his slots to dampen (ie: the GalScout with 4 dampeners) The race should end up in the dampeners favor, but it should be neck and neck the entire way. Rest in peace, oh Captain, my Captain.

bamboo x Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1043	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:13:00 - [11] - Quote nothing should be able to get under Gal Logi's Focused. Because that thing is so goddamn hard to use it's pathetic. 40 second cooldown, and with max skills im pretty sure only 7 seconds visibility *Eternal Beings* - #76 in All Time WP - #90 in All Time Kills. Member since day one, 10 months ago.
Cruor Abominare Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 138	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:15:00 - [12] - Quote Since the scout revisit the balance is that a cloak with two damps will avoid every suit scan in the game. Its the trade off for being so damn squishy. That said no one can hide from the gal logi with proto focus scans which is always a good fall back. However no one seems to want to run gal logi and would rather complain.
Riruodo Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 31	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:22:00 - [13] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Dampeners should win. BUT, only by a very small margin. As in, the best scanner, using all his slots to scan (or in GalLogis case, using the best scanner at lvl 5 GalLogi) should only be beat by someone using all his slots to dampen (ie: the GalScout with 4 dampeners) The race should end up in the dampeners favor, but it should be neck and neck the entire way. I think this works, but I also think the other way would be a little better. If there were no such thing as cloaks I think dampners should win fairly easily because it still takes skill to know when to strike and to stay in a target's blind spot as they run around. However, with cloaks, I think there should be a counter to them, but you would have to specialize in countering them. So either give up a ton of high slots (maybe all) for precision enhancers, or run a proto scanner. Scanning should win, but just barely. You have to want to scan everything, and you have to pay a lot of isk and sp to do so. In the same way that scouts have a bonus to cloak fittings, I think logis should have a bonus to scanner fittings. Other suits can use scanners, but only a dedicated logi should use the proto scanners. My other car is Utena
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1394	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:23:00 - [14] - Quote Cruor Abominare wrote: Since the scout revisit the balance is that a cloak with two damps will avoid every suit scan in the game. Its the trade off for being so damn squishy. That said no one can hide from the gal logi with proto focus scans which is always a good fall back. However no one seems to want to run gal logi and would rather complain. FYI: Double dampened and cloaked scouts evade even the best Gal Logi focused scanner.
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 192	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:38:00 - [15] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Monty Mole Clone wrote: i dont see why someone using a piece of equipment, while giving up non of his defensive or killing power should always scan someone who is using all or most of his lows for damps That's a good point, but remember there are both active and passive scanners, and your comments only apply to active scanners. What about passive scanning? Should the passive dampener always win the passive scanning race? gonna say yes because of what other people have pointed out, damps are for you and you only. scans passive or otherwise can be shared deader than A line flares with pockets in the knees
TechMechMeds Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 5393	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:42:00 - [16] - Quote I reckon dampeners should win but only just vs precision modules. Proto active snanners should beat dampener modules but only just. The active scanner costs more and you have to equip and use it, it also has a cool down. It is also the thing that the gal logi is good at, so let it shine the way my min logi does when I have a core focussed rep tool on a brick heavy, farming the sht out of people while I play spectator mode. The question would also be "how much of x should beat x etc?". I don't know lol. You guys can talk about it lol. My hometown beat Manchester united. Git gud man utd. 4-0
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3584	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:49:00 - [17] - Quote I like where it is now. Those with precision, or a Gal Logi with a focused scanner, force scouts to give up tank, speed, range etc in order to dampen enough to be tacnet invisible. And even then, all but Gal scout have to be cloaked at the time, otherwise they will still show up. Waves of opportunity and all. You also have to remember scouts invest a TON of SP in order to be able to do these things. They have to max their dampening skills, go at least lvl 4 on a scout race in order to adequately fit a cloak, THEN put SP in cloaks all the way to lvl 5 because the proto cloak is the only one that has a significant enough bonus to dampening to be worth it. Being able to pick someone up on tacnet is always a greater advantage than simply being invisible on tacnet, which is why scouts should be able to, given significant sacrifice, beat scanners. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 193	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:52:00 - [18] - Quote changing active scanners to only being able to scan between certain ranges like for instance 13 to 18 db might be interesting, just numbers i pulled out my ass deader than A line flares with pockets in the knees
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3584	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:54:00 - [19] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: changing active scanners to only being able to scan between certain ranges like for instance 13 to 18 db might be interesting, just numbers i pulled out my ass I think scouts making maximum sacrifice should be able to beat scanners while with a proto cloak, as they do now (13 is too low, 14 is where Gal Logi with focus scanner is now). That being said, I kind of like the idea of a dB range on a scanner. This would punish less dampened scouts without really being a burden to heavies and mediums who are already showing up on scout shared passive scans. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 647	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:01:00 - [20] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Specific Race + Specific Suit = Specialized Suites No longer a 1 scanner and 360 jump for all... no one even bothers to use focused scanner+proto gal logi.. [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 647	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:04:00 - [21] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: i dont see why someone using a piece of equipment, while giving up non of his defensive or killing power should always scan someone who is using all or most of his lows for damps iirc damps also lower the time you are visable if you DO get scanned so your on for a fraction of the time mediums and heavys are on for just gotta be cautious and wait out the "you have been scanned" text [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1120	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:06:00 - [22] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I think people should be able to get under scans, but I think it should be a situation where they are not a serious threat when doing so. They should be made of glass. I always thought it would be cool to have a stealth uplink. Like 5 spawns and it's done. In other words the completely undetectable scout comes in a drops an uplink, squad spawns in. What I don't like is a dude that is not detectable going beast mode killing everything that moves all game. I agree with you Thor . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 647	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:06:00 - [23] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: In past builds, the maxed out scanner was always able to scan his enemies. As it sits today, a scout with a few dampners wins the EWAR race in that nobody can scan him. Which is right? Which is better for gameplay? Should the scanner or the scanned win the EWAR race? scanner should win. cause then people might actually start useing active scanners again.. but then you need to share active scanning for whole team AND get points for intel assists not just IN-squad. [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4542	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:14:00 - [24] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Cruor Abominare wrote: Since the scout revisit the balance is that a cloak with two damps will avoid every suit scan in the game. Its the trade off for being so damn squishy. That said no one can hide from the gal logi with proto focus scans which is always a good fall back. However no one seems to want to run gal logi and would rather complain. FYI: Double dampened Gal Scouts (13.36db) and double dampened & cloaked Cal Scouts (14.15db) evade even the best Gal Logi focused scanner (15db). Not sure where you're getting your numbers. Max Skill GalScout + 2 Complex Damps = 16 dB Max Skill CalScout + 2 Complex Damps = 16 dB Here's the math ... Keep in mind ... * dB values always round to the nearest whole * Ties go to the scanner Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
medomai grey WarRavens 931	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:43:00 - [25] - Quote Detection should win simply because we have this item in game that makes players visibly harder to detect. When you combine visually harder to detect with immunity to EWAR detection, what counter do you have? What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 4427	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:52:00 - [26] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Cruor Abominare wrote: Since the scout revisit the balance is that a cloak with two damps will avoid every suit scan in the game. Its the trade off for being so damn squishy. That said no one can hide from the gal logi with proto focus scans which is always a good fall back. However no one seems to want to run gal logi and would rather complain. FYI: Double dampened Gal Scouts (13.36db) and double dampened & cloaked Cal Scouts (14.15db) evade even the best Gal Logi focused scanner (15db). Not sure where you're getting your numbers. Max Skill GalScout + 2 Complex Damps = 16 dB Max Skill CalScout + 2 Complex Damps = 16 dB Here's the math ... Keep in mind ... * dB values always round to the nearest whole * Ties go to the scanner We've been testing the numbers in battles. We've found some weird stuff where you can actually scan out past the ranges for moving targets as well. I'm not sure if I was supposed to share that yet, but yeah. Level 4 Forum Warrior Very, very bitter vet PSN: wbrom42
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4547	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:11:00 - [27] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Cruor Abominare wrote: Since the scout revisit the balance is that a cloak with two damps will avoid every suit scan in the game. Its the trade off for being so damn squishy. That said no one can hide from the gal logi with proto focus scans which is always a good fall back. However no one seems to want to run gal logi and would rather complain. FYI: Double dampened Gal Scouts (13.36db) and double dampened & cloaked Cal Scouts (14.15db) evade even the best Gal Logi focused scanner (15db). Not sure where you're getting your numbers. Max Skill GalScout + 2 Complex Damps = 16 dB Max Skill CalScout + 2 Complex Damps = 16 dB Here's the math ... Keep in mind ... * dB values always round to the nearest whole * Ties go to the scanner We've been testing the numbers in battles. We've found some weird stuff where you can actually scan out past the ranges for moving targets as well. I'm not sure if I was supposed to share that yet, but yeah. Pretty sure that math is right, but there's always a chance the Devs wired the wrong bonuses. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aramis Madrigal SVER True Blood Public.Disorder. 291	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:22:00 - [28] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: The scanner. I figure it's the same as cryptography, nothing is uncrackable. I would argue that deception always outpaces detection of deception (I can support with evidence if you like). I think the investment to remain undetectable is probably a little low right now, but 360 permascans make running an EWAR scout a completely untenable position. A piece of equipment shouldn't relegate an entire play style to the trash heap. I say this as someone who most frequently runs a gal scout and gal logi. -Aramis
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1606	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:26:00 - [29] - Quote Aramis Madrigal wrote: Thumb Green wrote: The scanner. I figure it's the same as cryptography, nothing is uncrackable. I would argue that deception always outpaces detection of deception (I can support with evidence if you like). I think the investment to remain undetectable is probably a little low right now, but 360 permascans make running an EWAR scout a completely untenable position. A piece of equipment shouldn't relegate an entire play style to the trash heap. I say this as someone who most frequently runs a gal scout and gal logi. -Aramis Indeed that equipment should, if one invests their skills and modules to make it such. Just as someone should have to invest themselves heavily in gear and skills in order to become hidden. The two should be nearly equal, and frankly, dampening should only win out in the battle of passive scans, which require no effort to obtain and are always on, and should lose the battle with active scans, which require player input and only last a small duration. Rest in peace, oh Captain, my Captain.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3588	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:26:00 - [30] - Quote Aramis Madrigal wrote: Thumb Green wrote: The scanner. I figure it's the same as cryptography, nothing is uncrackable. I would argue that deception always outpaces detection of deception (I can support with evidence if you like). I think the investment to remain undetectable is probably a little low right now, but 360 permascans make running an EWAR scout a completely untenable position. A piece of equipment shouldn't relegate an entire play style to the trash heap. I say this as someone who most frequently runs a gal scout and gal logi. -Aramis In what way is the investment to remain undetectable low? You can always tell a Millford Minja



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