DUST Search - Cal Scout Slot Progression

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Glantix wrote:

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Glantix wrote:

The problem with this is then the Adv CalScout and AmScout would be able to achieve their max scan range/precision respectively, which severely nullifies the point of running the prototype equivalents.

Yeah, that's kind of the point. Why should you be forced to run proto gear just to do what your suit is supposed to do? Not everyone can afford or is willing to run proto gear.

I understand this, but at the same time the proto suit should be able to do its job better than the advanced variant. If the CalScout had two lows at advanced, it would be able to scan just as far as the proto, and that just isn't right.

As I said, why don't we just wait and see?

A STD Gal logi can equip a proto scanner and be just as good as a PRO.

STD Cal assault can equip a proto RR and get the same reload bonus as a PRO.

Sentinels of all races get the same resistances across all tiers.

Etc etc.

Why should a Cal scout, which really only has dampening as its defense and scan range as its bonus, and an Amarr scout, which is terrible as a scanning suit even with two slots, be forced into a proto suit to make the best of their abilities?

There's nothing really to "experiment" with, it should be plain as day to see: Amarr scouts won't scan at all unless they're proto and Cal scouts won't damp well unless they're proto.

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Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1711	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:35:00 - [1] - Quote TL;DR Please keep current ADV Cal scout slot layout to make dampening viable. With the proposed change to the Cal scout slot progression, the ADV suit will have 4 highs and 1 low (the STD and PRO stay the same at 3:1 and 4:2, respectively). This makes dampening difficult for the lower tier suits, making the only truly "scouty" suit the proto. While I do think the STD scout is fine as is, I don't think it's fair to shorthand the ADV suit's ability for dampening. Please keep its 3:2 fitting to accommodate this.
Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 135	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:38:00 - [2] - Quote What does TL DR mean?
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 2109	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:39:00 - [3] - Quote too long, didn't read ^ Good idea on the ADV cal scout. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 524	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:43:00 - [4] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: TL;DR Please keep current ADV Cal scout slot layout to make dampening viable. With the proposed change to the Cal scout slot progression, the ADV suit will have 4 highs and 1 low (the STD and PRO stay the same at 3:1 and 4:2, respectively). This makes dampening difficult for the lower tier suits, making the only truly "scouty" suit the proto. While I do think the STD scout is fine as is, I don't think it's fair to shorthand the ADV suit's ability for dampening. Please keep its 3:2 fitting to accommodate this. You know this is the same layout as the Adv Min scout right? "One does not simply" run like a Raptor. Only mk.0 Scouts do ... wait... I'm still outclassed by Gal scouts.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1712	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:53:00 - [5] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: TL;DR Please keep current ADV Cal scout slot layout to make dampening viable. With the proposed change to the Cal scout slot progression, the ADV suit will have 4 highs and 1 low (the STD and PRO stay the same at 3:1 and 4:2, respectively). This makes dampening difficult for the lower tier suits, making the only truly "scouty" suit the proto. While I do think the STD scout is fine as is, I don't think it's fair to shorthand the ADV suit's ability for dampening. Please keep its 3:2 fitting to accommodate this. You know this is the same layout as the Adv Min scout right? Yes, but I hope we can make an exception to the progression rules based on functionality. It's unfair to have a scout that can't dampen properly below Proto suits, not to mention its new role as a long range scanner can't be done well either. There also doesn't seem to be any game breaking issues with it, since we have it currently. What's the problem?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2702	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:27:00 - [6] - Quote I agree. Adv should still be viable in terms of dampening. I don't think its a problem for the slot layout to be the same as minmatar for just the one level. This is how a minja feels
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1718	Posted - 2014.07.19 22:20:00 - [7] - Quote http://i.imgur.com/UEuOC.gif
Glantix Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.07.19 23:24:00 - [8] - Quote The problem with this is then the Adv CalScout and AmScout would be able to achieve their max scan range/precision respectively, which severely nullifies the point of running the prototype equivalents. I say keep the current layouts, at least for now. If they really don't work they can be changed at a later hotfix. I mean, wasn't that the idea behind these hotfixes? Change something, see of it works, and change it back if it doesn't?
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1718	Posted - 2014.07.19 23:31:00 - [9] - Quote Glantix wrote: The problem with this is then the Adv CalScout and AmScout would be able to achieve their max scan range/precision respectively, which severely nullifies the point of running the prototype equivalents. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Why should you be forced to run proto gear just to do what your suit is supposed to do? Not everyone can afford or is willing to run proto gear.
Glantix Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.07.19 23:37:00 - [10] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Glantix wrote: The problem with this is then the Adv CalScout and AmScout would be able to achieve their max scan range/precision respectively, which severely nullifies the point of running the prototype equivalents. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Why should you be forced to run proto gear just to do what your suit is supposed to do? Not everyone can afford or is willing to run proto gear. I understand this, but at the same time the proto suit should be able to do its job better than the advanced variant. If the CalScout had two lows at advanced, it would be able to scan just as far as the proto, and that just isn't right. As I said, why don't we just wait and see?

Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1718	Posted - 2014.07.19 23:55:00 - [11] - Quote Glantix wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Glantix wrote: The problem with this is then the Adv CalScout and AmScout would be able to achieve their max scan range/precision respectively, which severely nullifies the point of running the prototype equivalents. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Why should you be forced to run proto gear just to do what your suit is supposed to do? Not everyone can afford or is willing to run proto gear. I understand this, but at the same time the proto suit should be able to do its job better than the advanced variant. If the CalScout had two lows at advanced, it would be able to scan just as far as the proto, and that just isn't right. As I said, why don't we just wait and see? A STD Gal logi can equip a proto scanner and be just as good as a PRO. STD Cal assault can equip a proto RR and get the same reload bonus as a PRO. Sentinels of all races get the same resistances across all tiers. Etc etc. Why should a Cal scout, which really only has dampening as its defense and scan range as its bonus, and an Amarr scout, which is terrible as a scanning suit even with two slots, be forced into a proto suit to make the best of their abilities? There's nothing really to "experiment" with, it should be plain as day to see: Amarr scouts won't scan at all unless they're proto and Cal scouts won't damp well unless they're proto.
Glantix Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.07.20 03:24:00 - [12] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Glantix wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Glantix wrote: The problem with this is then the Adv CalScout and AmScout would be able to achieve their max scan range/precision respectively, which severely nullifies the point of running the prototype equivalents. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Why should you be forced to run proto gear just to do what your suit is supposed to do? Not everyone can afford or is willing to run proto gear. I understand this, but at the same time the proto suit should be able to do its job better than the advanced variant. If the CalScout had two lows at advanced, it would be able to scan just as far as the proto, and that just isn't right. As I said, why don't we just wait and see? A STD Gal logi can equip a proto scanner and be just as good as a PRO. STD Cal assault can equip a proto RR and get the same reload bonus as a PRO. Sentinels of all races get the same resistances across all tiers. Etc etc. Why should a Cal scout, which really only has dampening as its defense and scan range as its bonus, and an Amarr scout, which is terrible as a scanning suit even with two slots, be forced into a proto suit to make the best of their abilities? There's nothing really to "experiment" with, it should be plain as day to see: Amarr scouts won't scan at all unless they're proto and Cal scouts won't damp well unless they're proto. Well, I can't counter the first point you made about the other standard suits making the most of their bonuses. You are quite correct there. However, you mentioned that a CalScout only defense is dampening and that the Amarr won't have good scans at Adv. I will address the latter first. A fair number of CalScouts now only run one precision enhancer on their Adv fittings, and they work just fine, so the Amarr should be okay with only one high slot. Now to address your point about CalScouts dampening. You say that a CalScout's only defense is dampening, yet with four highs a CalScout can reach over 400 total shields and have its godly shield regen rates, I would say that that is also a good defense. Also, the only reason you would need a dampener is to dodge GaLogi scans and proto scans in general. This is something that should be left to the GalScout, you should not have to do the job of both the Caldari Scout and the Gallente Scout. A lot of people are going to complain about these slot layout changes, which is natural. But I am going to say this a third time, let us wait and see. Because honestly, if most of the CalScouts enjoy the slot layout changes, even if you hate it, I would call it a relative success.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1719	Posted - 2014.07.20 04:34:00 - [13] - Quote Glantix wrote: -Snip- I am a Cal scout, and what is more, I am strictly an EWar Cal scout. Yes, it is true that most my fits only have one complex precision mod, HOWEVER, I still have the ability to use more if there are scouts that can get under my basic scans. I even have a current enhanced suit with 3 complex mods. The difference is that with the Amarr scout, it won't have that option unless it pulls out a proto suit. This is alright if we're thinking of PCs and such, but there's no good reason why pub players should be forced into using proto suits. And 400 shield hp, or in other terms, about 1sec of MLT AR fire. It's really not that much. The scout's main defense is its speed, stealth, and scans. Lastly, since the Cal scout was stripped of its role as the scanner scout and now has the same dampening bonus as the Gal, it's no longer appropriate to call the Gal scout the "dampening scout." We won't need to wait and see what happens: Cal scouts won't be able to dampen effectively and with the lack of useful mods for highs, will be forced to brick extenders in the highs and either use armor plates or kinkats or whatever in the lows, effectively becoming assaults. [*]Amarr scouts won't be able to scan effectively, allowing scouts to run virtually without counter and making the Amarr a more worthless scout scanner.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 666	Posted - 2014.07.20 08:53:00 - [14] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Cal scouts won't be able to dampen effectively and with the lack of useful mods for highs, will be forced to brick extenders in the highs and either use armor plates or kinkats or whatever in the lows, effectively becoming assaults. Amarr scouts won't be able to scan effectively, allowing scouts to run virtually without counter and making the Amarr a more worthless scout scanner. CalScouts will be able to either scan all mediums/heavies within 90m permanently OR evade all scans (at PRO.) At STD/ADV, the CalScout can either: scan all mediums/heavies within 65m OR evade all non-PRO scans. That is fine,because as you say, why should they need to pull out PRO except I PC? Your argument is flawed. AmScouts will have a scan dB of 21.6 using their one high slot: this is sufficient to scan any Scout running 1 dampener unless it is Cal/Gal,who need to fit one module. This is in keeping with the 1-1 trade between scanning and dampening modules. And since the AmScout (armour) is trading a high slot to threaten everyone's lows (worth more EHP, especially to GalScouts) and, just as importantly, to their EWar kit (ie, range amps) that's pretty useful. Considering that they can also fit range amps/damps themselves and they're looking healthy. Your complaints look to be nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to not being the premier Scout (period) and now having a more defined role: long ranged passive scanner to catch mediums/heavies, and/or sacrificing fitting to catch low damp Scouts. Alt of Halla Murr.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 429	Posted - 2014.07.20 11:23:00 - [15] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Cal scouts won't be able to dampen effectively and with the lack of useful mods for highs, will be forced to brick extenders in the highs and either use armor plates or kinkats or whatever in the lows, effectively becoming assaults. Amarr scouts won't be able to scan effectively, allowing scouts to run virtually without counter and making the Amarr a more worthless scout scanner. CalScouts will be able to either scan all mediums/heavies within 90m permanently Dont know where you get 90m from. Cal scouts do 70m with 2 complex amps now. And CCP has said to nerfing the distance further. Its not just a dampner - its also the bonus from cloak. Gal will always be able to go under - and it is why the suit is also broken. Along with the wallhack passive 360 squad share Cal (soon to be Amarr)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 666	Posted - 2014.07.20 11:54:00 - [16] - Quote xAckie wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Cal scouts won't be able to dampen effectively and with the lack of useful mods for highs, will be forced to brick extenders in the highs and either use armor plates or kinkats or whatever in the lows, effectively becoming assaults. Amarr scouts won't be able to scan effectively, allowing scouts to run virtually without counter and making the Amarr a more worthless scout scanner. CalScouts will be able to either scan all mediums/heavies within 90m permanently Dont know where you get 90m from. Cal scouts do 70m with 2 complex amps now. And CCP has said to nerfing the distance further. Its not just a dampner - its also the bonus from cloak. Gal will always be able to go under - and it is why the suit is also broken. Along with the wallhack passive 360 squad share Cal (soon to be Amarr) 20 1.5 (Range Amp 5) = 30 1.5 (CalScout 5 after Charlie) = 45 1.45 (Complex Amp) = 65.25 (STD/ADV CalScout) 1.3915 (Complex Amp: 45%* .87 Stacking penalty) = 90.79 (PRO CalScout) Alt of Halla Murr.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 429	Posted - 2014.07.20 14:39:00 - [17] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: xAckie wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Cal scouts won't be able to dampen effectively and with the lack of useful mods for highs, will be forced to brick extenders in the highs and either use armor plates or kinkats or whatever in the lows, effectively becoming assaults. Amarr scouts won't be able to scan effectively, allowing scouts to run virtually without counter and making the Amarr a more worthless scout scanner. CalScouts will be able to either scan all mediums/heavies within 90m permanently Dont know where you get 90m from. Cal scouts do 70m with 2 complex amps now. And CCP has said to nerfing the distance further. Its not just a dampner - its also the bonus from cloak. Gal will always be able to go under - and it is why the suit is also broken. Along with the wallhack passive 360 squad share Cal (soon to be Amarr) 20 1.5 (Range Amp 5) = 30 1.5 (CalScout 5 after Charlie) = 45 1.45 (Complex Amp) = 65.25 (STD/ADV CalScout) 1.3915 (Complex Amp: 45%* .87 Stacking penalty) = 90.79 (PRO CalScout) yep but as said CCP looking at nerfing range. If not. would love squad wide 90m wallhacks CCP Rattati wrote: This is under review, and I am looking at reducing Range amplifiers to 30% instead of the current 45%.


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