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Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 487	Posted - 2014.07.03 06:32:00 - [1] - Quote Scouts need to have 2 sidearm slots. They don't need and shouldn't have light weapons. I mean, I don't really have any problem with "OP Scouts" or anything like that, and this isn't really a QQ, but this is something that just doesn't feel right. I honestly don't think its that subtle. I run basic Amarr scouts, btw. I feel more survivable using a MD than in my proto Cal Assault. CAPTURE CA-LARGE BLASTER TURRETS TO DESTROY ENEMY MCC
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 898	Posted - 2014.07.03 06:50:00 - [2] - Quote I am okay with them having 'specialist' weapon variants. That still leaves a lot of light weapons, but generally slightly weaker, in compensation for being easier to fit. Dust/Eve transfers
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 487	Posted - 2014.07.03 06:52:00 - [3] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I am okay with them having 'specialist' weapon variants. That still leaves a lot of light weapons, but generally slightly weaker, in compensation for being easier to fit. makes sense CAPTURE CA-LARGE BLASTER TURRETS TO DESTROY ENEMY MCC
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6275	Posted - 2014.07.03 06:54:00 - [4] - Quote Shut up. Fixing Scouts can is not a one hit hammer problem. There are multiple problems with the Scout Suits but a solution certainly isn't to Give scouts two side arms 1. The Hit Detection is god awful, this is primarily a reason why scouts are a huge nuisance as they are now. When you couple bad hit detection plus speed PLUS 550+ eHP you're going to have an OP fit. 2. Fix Brick Tanking among scouts, there's no reason for further analysis. Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. 3. Buff Assaults, because in this ecosystem of scouts, they have no predator in their environment. This is causing them to become invasive. Introducing a Natural predator to the Scouts will result in a more balanced ecosystem. see you space cowboy...
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 487	Posted - 2014.07.03 06:59:00 - [5] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. I think it's simple math. I don't think we need a huge amount of overhaul for an easy problem. /shrug CAPTURE CA-LARGE BLASTER TURRETS TO DESTROY ENEMY MCC
Vicious Minotaur 1033	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:05:00 - [6] - Quote So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. I am a minotaur.
jerrmy12 kahoalii New Age Empire. 1593	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:07:00 - [7] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Scouts need to have 2 sidearm slots. They don't need and shouldn't have light weapons. I mean, I don't really have any problem with "OP Scouts" or anything like that, and this isn't really a QQ, but this is something that just doesn't feel right. I honestly don't think its that subtle. I run basic Amarr scouts, btw. I feel more survivable using a MD than in my proto Cal Assault. http://i.imgur.com/LXiOUEi.gif Closed beta vet. If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
Varoth Drac the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 156	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:10:00 - [8] - Quote There are no suit v suit natural counters and neither should there be. In many ways heavies counter scouts, despite people saying it's the other way round. Yes scouts can combat heavies, that is balance. In my opinion the whole Rock Paper Scissors thing people go on about is rubbish. Buff assaults. Proto logis are fine. Buff the lower tiers (apart from adv Amarr and Minmatar which are awesome).
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6276	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:13:00 - [9] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. I think it's simple math. I don't think we need a huge amount of overhaul for an easy problem. /shrug High Speed + High Damage = Typical Scout (If scout was fixed >:[ ) -------->Somewhere in the middle Assaults are here. <-------- High Damage + High Health = Typical Heavy see you space cowboy...
jerrmy12 kahoalii New Age Empire. 1593	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:16:00 - [10] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Midas Fool wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. I think it's simple math. I don't think we need a huge amount of overhaul for an easy problem. /shrug High Speed + High Damage + medium hp = Typical Scout (If scout was fixed >:[ ) -------->medium speed + medium hp = typical assault <-------- High Damage + High Health = Typical Heavy Fixed. Closed beta vet. If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic

Hakyou Brutor G0DS AM0NG MEN 820	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:17:00 - [11] - Quote Scout: 1 Light, 1 Side, 1 Equip (minmatar scout gets 2 equip), 2 Nades Assault: 1 Light, 1 Side, 2 Equip, 3 Nades Logi: 1 Light, 3-4 Equip, 2 Nades Heavy: 1 Heavy (NO LIGHT WEAPONS ALLOWED), 1 Side, 2 Nades Commando: 2 Light, 1 Nade, 1 Equip EH? "I never pull out" ~Ace Boone, 2014.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6276	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:20:00 - [12] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Midas Fool wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. I think it's simple math. I don't think we need a huge amount of overhaul for an easy problem. /shrug High Speed + High Damage + medium hp = Typical Scout (If scout was fixed >:[ ) -------->medium speed + medium hp + Medium Damage = typical assault <-------- High Damage + High Health = Typical Heavy Fixed. Affixed see you space cowboy...*
jerrmy12 kahoalii New Age Empire. 1593	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:20:00 - [13] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Scout: 1 Light, 1 Side, 1 Equip (minmatar scout gets 2 equip), 2 Nades Assault: 1 Light, 1 Side, 2 Equip, 3 Nades Logi: 1 Light, 3-4 Equip, 2 Nades Heavy: 1 Heavy (NO LIGHT WEAPONS ALLOWED), 1 Side, 2 Nades Commando: 2 Light, 1 Nade, 1 Equip EH? hahaha Closed beta vet. If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
Bojo The Mighty Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno 3953	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:32:00 - [14] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Scouts need to have 2 sidearm slots. They don't need and shouldn't have light weapons. I mean, I don't really have any problem with "OP Scouts" or anything like that, and this isn't really a QQ, but this is something that just doesn't feel right. I honestly don't think its that subtle. I run basic Amarr scouts, btw. I feel more survivable using a MD than in my proto Cal Assault. Bahahahaha Also BS you know you never should use an Armor tank suit with the MD you need dat strafe & -20% to explosives. Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
Mike De Luca Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 144	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:34:00 - [15] - Quote I came in here expecting to laugh....and I was correct what i think of when charging fg
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 487	Posted - 2014.07.03 07:35:00 - [16] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Midas Fool wrote: Scouts need to have 2 sidearm slots. They don't need and shouldn't have light weapons. I mean, I don't really have any problem with "OP Scouts" or anything like that, and this isn't really a QQ, but this is something that just doesn't feel right. I honestly don't think its that subtle. I run basic Amarr scouts, btw. I feel more survivable using a MD than in my proto Cal Assault. Bahahahaha Also BS you know you never should use an Armor tank suit with the MD you need dat strafe & -20% to explosives. You'd think so. CAPTURE CA-LARGE BLASTER TURRETS TO DESTROY ENEMY MCC
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2782	Posted - 2014.07.03 09:56:00 - [17] - Quote **** off. No. If I can't run a Plasma Cannon scout anymore, you will have taken away my one last reason to give a damn about Dust. First I get my favorite sidearm nerfed into a frustrating mess, and now you want to take away my favorite light weapon? My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 869	Posted - 2014.07.03 11:21:00 - [18] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: There are no suit v suit natural counters and neither should there be. In many ways heavies counter scouts, despite people saying it's the other way round. Yes scouts can combat heavies, that is balance. In my opinion the whole Rock Paper Scissors thing people go on about is rubbish. Buff assaults. Proto logis are fine. Buff the lower tiers (apart from adv Amarr and Minmatar which are awesome). So a suit that's slower yet has less armor,and less combat potential is ok? I understand the sidearm,but being slower with less armor? By that logic scouts should be as fast as heavies.
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 2131	Posted - 2014.07.03 13:06:00 - [19] - Quote Just make the use of armor and shields worse for scouts. Armor adds more weight, should decrease Sprint and all movement speeds. It should also effect your scan profile, heavier footsteps should be detected easier. Shields should raise hitbox size and also effect scan profile, due to the electronics being used. Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
Tom Hamp Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 34	Posted - 2014.07.03 13:12:00 - [20] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. whoa hold up kill off the shotgun scout that's the old school style I like better than rifled scouts thank you and highly recommend. the lonely guy

Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 262	Posted - 2014.07.03 13:21:00 - [21] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Scouts need to have 2 sidearm slots. They don't need and shouldn't have light weapons. I mean, I don't really have any problem with "OP Scouts" or anything like that, and this isn't really a QQ, but this is something that just doesn't feel right. I honestly don't think its that subtle. I run basic Amarr scouts, btw. I feel more survivable using a MD than in my proto Cal Assault. I'm almost speechless.... almost.... heavies shouldn't use light weapons, logis should be side arm only and now scouts need 2 side arm slots.... what the actual f.uck? what game are you people playing? out of all the problems this game has, putting aside the fact that its a dying game, this is the kind of crap people feel the need to write a forum thread on... this game was supposed to be about diversity, it's deep fitting system and skill tree were there to provide versatility and ingenuity. one of the most alluring aspects of this game is how much choice is given to the player in how they want to fight, and so many of you just want to nerf that stuff into oblivion. midas you need to think outside the box for a bit. realize everyone wants to play differently and that this point is the only thing ccp ever got right with dust.... why would you want to remove options from the scout simply because YOU don't think it feels right, after all you are already given the option to use 2 side arms if you want ( believe it or not you can fit one in the the light weapon slot) so why would you want to remove the light weapon from the scout option, when there are many who enjoy a different playstyle, either with rail rifle, shot gun, etc etc? does this idea fix the game? does it make the game more fun? does it create balance? meh....
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 408	Posted - 2014.07.03 13:21:00 - [22] - Quote **** no but then how can I be a true sniper.You want me to be a freak en heavie sniper.Scouts should be snipers.Terrible idea Feel the pain of my knives and the piercing pain your skull has felt to my pistol.I am the Assassin.
Orchi Aizen Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2014.07.03 13:24:00 - [23] - Quote Hell no,not going to happen.You do that take light weapons off heavies and we'll talk
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1883	Posted - 2014.07.03 13:43:00 - [24] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. The suits that get the most eHP also are the only ones who get the freedom to run with the highest DPS weapon and the best AV weapon in the game while my assault suit cannot. Is that "Freedom to Fit"? No, it's called "balance". Scout's advantage is it's scans, speed, regen, strafing ability, damps, 2 equip slots and access to cloaks. Not to mention their additional jumping height and sprint speed allow them to toss RE's ridiculously far, and that's cutting out the broken hit boxes and issues with brick tanking. They don't ALSO need access to high powered weaponry. And buffing assaults won't fix THAT large of a gap without making the assault game-breakingly good. TL;DR: Balance>Everything Edit: I'm open to better ideas if I hear them, but this is something that makes sense to me. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 263	Posted - 2014.07.03 14:31:00 - [25] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. The suits that get the most eHP also are the only ones who get the freedom to run with the highest DPS weapon and the best AV weapon in the game while my assault suit cannot. Is that "Freedom to Fit"? No, it's called "balance". Scout's advantage is it's scans, speed, regen, strafing ability, damps, 2 equip slots and access to cloaks. Not to mention their additional jumping height and sprint speed allow them to toss RE's ridiculously far, and that's cutting out the broken hit boxes and issues with brick tanking. They don't ALSO need access to high powered weaponry. And buffing assaults won't fix THAT large of a gap without making the assault game-breakingly good. TL;DR: Balance>Everything Edit: I'm open to better ideas if I hear them, but this is something that makes sense to me. I respectfully disagree baal... balance is not greater than everything... not greater than fun. not greater than staying true to core gameplay balance is smoke and mirrors, it doesn't exist, it cannot exist. the reason it cant is because of the player, you cannot balance the player. case in point; with all those abilities that a scout has, and all those limitations on your assault suit, have you ever killed a scout? ever kill the same one over and over again? ever been on the boards above scouts using your assault? you see where I'm going I'll dispense with the interrogation... there are serious issues with every build, and some are far superior to others and while I agree all gear in the game needs serious adjustment, all fits in comparison to other fits and tweaking accordingly is by far the only way to get the best result... and even then once the player is thrown into the mix you will still encounter variables you did not expect which can make anything at any time seem OP or UP. and I'm sorry but restricting light weapons to any suit is not the answer...
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 701	Posted - 2014.07.03 14:33:00 - [26] - Quote And logis shouldn't have a weapon, and heavy's can't have a sidearm, and assaults only get their light weapon and nothing else, commandos lose their EQ slot...so on, so forth. Id like personally to have a light suit variant that has only 2 sidearm slots, but has much better dampening and speed "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Scheneighnay McBob Cult of Gasai 5548	Posted - 2014.07.03 15:01:00 - [27] - Quote Cut down their CPU and PG maybe, but not slots directly. pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
Reign Omega BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 495	Posted - 2014.07.03 15:57:00 - [28] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: And logis shouldn't have a weapon, and heavy's can't have a sidearm, and assaults only get their light weapon and nothing else, commandos lose their EQ slot...so on, so forth. Id like personally to have a light suit variant that has only 2 sidearm slots, but has much better dampening and speed Ladies and gentlemen.... I give you... The pilot suit Observe the public trust. Protect the innocent. Uphold the law.
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1883	Posted - 2014.07.03 19:06:00 - [29] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. The suits that get the most eHP also are the only ones who get the freedom to run with the highest DPS weapon and the best AV weapon in the game while my assault suit cannot. Is that "Freedom to Fit"? No, it's called "balance". Scout's advantage is it's scans, speed, regen, strafing ability, damps, 2 equip slots and access to cloaks. Not to mention their additional jumping height and sprint speed allow them to toss RE's ridiculously far, and that's cutting out the broken hit boxes and issues with brick tanking. They don't ALSO need access to high powered weaponry. And buffing assaults won't fix THAT large of a gap without making the assault game-breakingly good. TL;DR: Balance>Everything Edit: I'm open to better ideas if I hear them, but this is something that makes sense to me. I respectfully disagree baal... balance is not greater than everything... not greater than fun. not greater than staying true to core gameplay balance is smoke and mirrors, it doesn't exist, it cannot exist. the reason it cant is because of the player, you cannot balance the player. case in point; with all those abilities that a scout has, and all those limitations on your assault suit, have you ever killed a scout? ever kill the same one over and over again? ever been on the boards above scouts using your assault? you see where I'm going I'll dispense with the interrogation... there are serious issues with every build, and some are far superior to others and while I agree all gear in the game needs serious adjustment, all fits in comparison to other fits and tweaking accordingly is by far the only way to get the best result... and even then once the player is thrown into the mix you will still encounter variables you did not expect which can make anything at any time seem OP or UP. and I'm sorry but restricting light weapons to any suit is not the answer... Balance is not adjusted based on individual player skill v player skill, but on class v class. It is game balance, not "handicap the good players and carebear the bad players", nor is it "leave one class brokenly OP so we can say everything is customizable". For instance, throughout Chromosome the assault suit was by and far the best suit in the game, with the heavy playing a close second. Scouts were semi viable and Logi's were borderline good. That was not game balance. Good players were able to make due with bad suits, but that doesn't mean it was fair to the players who wanted to play that class but couldn't properly because it wasn't worth getting rolled every match. Basically the problem right now isn't that the scout's strengths are too strong and need to be tweaked down. It's that it has so many that it can fill far too many roles, leaving the medium suits completely lacking by comparison in pretty much every way except the logi having an additional equipment slot and assaults being the tiniest bit tankier. So... which scout traits would you trade off to keep the light weapon that would also bring the suit close to balanced? Their speed? Their scans? Their damps? Their cloak bonus? Their tiny hitboxes? Like I said, I'd be happy to hear ideas, but Middas is the only one so far who has put a sensible (from a game balance perspective) idea forward. Everyone else here just went into rage mode instead of coming up with a solid counter proposal, so I felt I should chime in. I respect the hell out of your opinion Seymor, if you've got a solid option I'd be more than happy to hear it. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 3061	Posted - 2014.07.03 19:13:00 - [30] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Shut up. Fixing Scouts can is not a one hit hammer problem. There are multiple problems with the Scout Suits but a solution certainly isn't to Give scouts two side arms 1. The Hit Detection is god awful, this is primarily a reason why scouts are a huge nuisance as they are now. When you couple bad hit detection plus speed PLUS 550+ eHP you're going to have an OP fit. 2. Fix Brick Tanking among scouts, there's no reason for further analysis. Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. 3. Buff Assaults, because in this ecosystem of scouts, they have no predator in their environment. This is causing them to become invasive. Introducing a Natural predator to the Scouts will result in a more balanced ecosystem. Dont forget the 2 equipment slots BS

Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1885	Posted - 2014.07.03 20:10:00 - [31] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Shut up. Fixing Scouts can is not a one hit hammer problem. There are multiple problems with the Scout Suits but a solution certainly isn't to Give scouts two side arms 1. The Hit Detection is god awful, this is primarily a reason why scouts are a huge nuisance as they are now. When you couple bad hit detection plus speed PLUS 550+ eHP you're going to have an OP fit. 2. Fix Brick Tanking among scouts, there's no reason for further analysis. Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them. 3. Buff Assaults, because in this ecosystem of scouts, they have no predator in their environment. This is causing them to become invasive. Introducing a Natural predator to the Scouts will result in a more balanced ecosystem. What good is a predator who cannot see or scan his prey but his prey can see and scan him? There is nothing about the assault suit that makes it a "scout hunter". PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 277	Posted - 2014.07.03 20:21:00 - [32] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. The suits that get the most eHP also are the only ones who get the freedom to run with the highest DPS weapon and the best AV weapon in the game while my assault suit cannot. Is that "Freedom to Fit"? No, it's called "balance". Scout's advantage is it's scans, speed, regen, strafing ability, damps, 2 equip slots and access to cloaks. Not to mention their additional jumping height and sprint speed allow them to toss RE's ridiculously far, and that's cutting out the broken hit boxes and issues with brick tanking. They don't ALSO need access to high powered weaponry. And buffing assaults won't fix THAT large of a gap without making the assault game-breakingly good. TL;DR: Balance>Everything Edit: I'm open to better ideas if I hear them, but this is something that makes sense to me. I respectfully disagree baal... balance is not greater than everything... not greater than fun. not greater than staying true to core gameplay balance is smoke and mirrors, it doesn't exist, it cannot exist. the reason it cant is because of the player, you cannot balance the player. case in point; with all those abilities that a scout has, and all those limitations on your assault suit, have you ever killed a scout? ever kill the same one over and over again? ever been on the boards above scouts using your assault? you see where I'm going I'll dispense with the interrogation... there are serious issues with every build, and some are far superior to others and while I agree all gear in the game needs serious adjustment, all fits in comparison to other fits and tweaking accordingly is by far the only way to get the best result... and even then once the player is thrown into the mix you will still encounter variables you did not expect which can make anything at any time seem OP or UP. and I'm sorry but restricting light weapons to any suit is not the answer... Balance is not adjusted based on individual player skill v player skill, but on class v class. It is game balance, not "handicap the good players and carebear the bad players", nor is it "leave one class brokenly OP so we can say everything is customizable". For instance, throughout Chromosome the assault suit was by and far the best suit in the game, with the heavy playing a close second. Scouts were semi viable and Logi's were borderline good. That was not game balance. Good players were able to make due with bad suits, but that doesn't mean it was fair to the players who wanted to play that class but couldn't properly because it wasn't worth getting rolled every match. Basically the problem right now isn't that the scout's strengths are too strong and need to be tweaked down. It's that it has so many that it can fill far too many roles, leaving the medium suits completely lacking by comparison in pretty much every way except the logi having an additional equipment slot and assaults being the tiniest bit tankier. So... which scout traits would you trade off to keep the light weapon that would also bring the suit close to balanced? Their speed? Their scans? Their damps? Their cloak bonus? Their tiny hitboxes? Like I said, I'd be happy to hear ideas, but Middas is the only one so far who has put a sensible (from a game balance perspective) idea forward. Everyone else here just went into rage mode instead of coming up with a solid counter proposal, so I felt I should chime in. I respect the hell out of your opinion Seymor, if you've got a solid option I'd be more than happy to hear it. the respect is mutual. first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu. personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops. this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly.
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1885	Posted - 2014.07.03 20:44:00 - [33] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: the respect is mutual. first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu. personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops. this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 280	Posted - 2014.07.03 21:10:00 - [34] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: the respect is mutual. first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu. personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops. this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. this is an interesting idea, I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't this kind of update require the dreaded sony q/a process? even if ccp would do a major update like that they better do a lot of other things too lol... it seems like it would work but it's radically different from how the mechanics of the suits work by making them have to use a specific piece of equipment. wouldn't all other suits need something similar to balance this?
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1887	Posted - 2014.07.03 21:39:00 - [35] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: the respect is mutual. first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu. personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops. this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. this is an interesting idea, I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't this kind of update require the dreaded sony q/a process? even if ccp would do a major update like that they better do a lot of other things too lol... it seems like it would work but it's radically different from how the mechanics of the suits work by making them have to use a specific piece of equipment. wouldn't all other suits need something similar to balance this? I've always believed each class should be unique and specialized for different things. I've also been in agreement with KAGEHOSHI for a while that the basic frame suits should have more utility than simply more expensive starter suits to get you to the point that you can unlock the cheaper, good suits. As for the specializations... The Logi has only one weapon but extra equips. The heavy has access to all weapons but is slow, fat and has very poor regen/scans/damps or equips. The Commando gains an equipment slot and a swap to 2 light slots in exchange for the loss of grenades. The assault.... is broken, so we'll ignore it for now. The scout would gain a unique ability passively that every other suit has to sacrifice pg/cpu for, in exchange it cannot equip anything BUT a cloak. Imho it's forced equipment parallels the heavy's forced no equipment very nicely. As for it requiring a clientside update, very likely. But I didn't say my idea fit into CCP's parameters for patches. I just thought I'd mention it since your idea reminded me of it. The problem remains that as long as the pg/cpu for the cloak remains high, nerfing the scout's pg/cpu won't be the right fix for the job. You could reduce the cloak's pg/cpu.... but that's a whole other debate PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2014.07.03 22:50:00 - [36] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: the respect is mutual. first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu. personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops. this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. it seems like it would work but it's radically different from how the mechanics of the suits work by making them have to use a specific piece of equipment. wouldn't all other suits need something similar to balance this? I've always believed each class should be unique and specialized for different things. I've also been in agreement with KAGEHOSHI for a while that the basic frame suits should have more utility than simply more expensive starter suits to get you to the point that you can unlock the cheaper, good suits. As for the specializations... The Logi has only one weapon but extra equips. The heavy has access to all weapons but is slow, fat and has very poor regen/scans/damps or equips. The Commando gains an equipment slot and a swap to 2 light slots in exchange for the loss of grenades. The assault.... is broken, so we'll ignore it for now. The scout would gain a unique ability passively that every other suit has to sacrifice pg/cpu for, in exchange it cannot equip anything BUT a cloak. Imho it's forced equipment parallels the heavy's forced no equipment very nicely. As for it requiring a clientside update, very likely. But I didn't say my idea fit into CCP's parameters for patches. I just thought I'd mention it since your idea reminded me of it. The problem remains that as long as the pg/cpu for the cloak remains high, nerfing the scout's pg/cpu won't be the right fix for the job. You could reduce the cloak's pg/cpu.... but that's a whole other debate this is why I think a reduction to there overall ehp would help... I'm not a numbers guy but just for an example give them say 25 base shields and 25 base armor and just enough pg/cpu that they can either fit a cloak and a proto weapon or a tank and nothing better than an adv weapon but no cloak. couple this with fixing their hitbox, and make the cloak a bit more cloaky again and they would be much more scouty...and I don't think a client side update would be required
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 490	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:09:00 - [37] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. Pretty big elephant though. Just sitting there. Shhhhhhhh. Anything but lowering damage potential though, right? CAPTURE CA-LARGE BLASTER TURRETS TO DESTROY ENEMY MCC
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1891	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:12:00 - [38] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: the respect is mutual. first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu. personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops. this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. it seems like it would work but it's radically different from how the mechanics of the suits work by making them have to use a specific piece of equipment. wouldn't all other suits need something similar to balance this? I've always believed each class should be unique and specialized for different things. I've also been in agreement with KAGEHOSHI for a while that the basic frame suits should have more utility than simply more expensive starter suits to get you to the point that you can unlock the cheaper, good suits. As for the specializations... The Logi has only one weapon but extra equips. The heavy has access to all weapons but is slow, fat and has very poor regen/scans/damps or equips. The Commando gains an equipment slot and a swap to 2 light slots in exchange for the loss of grenades. The assault.... is broken, so we'll ignore it for now. The scout would gain a unique ability passively that every other suit has to sacrifice pg/cpu for, in exchange it cannot equip anything BUT a cloak. Imho it's forced equipment parallels the heavy's forced no equipment very nicely. As for it requiring a clientside update, very likely. But I didn't say my idea fit into CCP's parameters for patches. I just thought I'd mention it since your idea reminded me of it. The problem remains that as long as the pg/cpu for the cloak remains high, nerfing the scout's pg/cpu won't be the right fix for the job. You could reduce the cloak's pg/cpu.... but that's a whole other debate this is why I think a reduction to there overall ehp would help... I'm not a numbers guy but just for an example give them say 25 base shields and 25 base armor and just enough pg/cpu that they can either fit a cloak and a proto weapon or a tank and nothing better than an adv weapon but no cloak. couple this with fixing their hitbox, and make the cloak a bit more cloaky again and they would be much more scouty...and I don't think a client side update would be required Once again it is a fantastic theory, but the complex armor plate gives 135 (I.... think) armor hp. 2 of those (pretty sure every scout has at least 2 lows) on for less than the cost of the cloak, and you are already at 320 eHP with 25/25 base HP. Or 3 basics (85 a piece I think) would leave you at 305 with plenty extra pg/cpu to spare for additional shield modules. And the biggest issue would be the NPE, new players would shy away from anything that could be killed by a couple stray bullets. I believe the easiest solution, in line with your thinking, would have to be to instead focus on drastically cutting the Gal and Cal scout's module layouts instead. This prevents an unnecessary nerf to the Amarr and Min-scouts who are already under performing compared to these two. Unfortunately, that will be scoffed at almost as much as the light weapon removal because it would look like this: Cal: STD 1/0 ADV 2/0 PRO 4/0 They have all the scans or shield tank they want, but in return they cannot armor tank or damp at all without a cloak. (beyond passives) Gal: STD 0/1 ADV 0/2 PRO 0/4 They have all the damps and armor tank they want, but in return they cannot shield tank or scan without a scanner. (beyond passives) PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Espartoi Orkz Clan 295	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:16:00 - [39] - Quote "ingenuity" in Dust514 fittings....where?. Shoot Smash Stomp Chop. Am a Giant Realistic Flying Tiger.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15713	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:22:00 - [40] - Quote but but but sniper rifles and shotguns! CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked

Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 491	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:26:00 - [41] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: but but but sniper rifles and shotguns! lol Funny that there is no scouts with bonuses to light weapons. I wonder if any of them have a bonus to a sidearm.... Where are the bonuses to snipers and shotguns? On Assaults and Commandos? No way... CAPTURE CA-LARGE BLASTER TURRETS TO DESTROY ENEMY MCC
Gaurdian Satyr Glitched Connection 296	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:30:00 - [42] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. freedom to fit huh? hmg and forge scouts now confirmed NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR CONSOLE OR PC
Reign Omega BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 497	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:34:00 - [43] - Quote Gaurdian Satyr wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: So, lets kill off: shotgun scouts sniper scouts marksman scouts AV scouts and any other scout type that uses light weapons... For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off? The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings. freedom to fit huh? hmg and forge scouts now confirmed Within the limits of reasonable physics. Imagine a little guy carrying a gun bigger than he? But a big man carrying a small gun...No problem. Observe the public trust. Protect the innocent. Uphold the law.


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