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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1883
   |
Posted - 2014.07.03 13:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:So, lets kill off:
shotgun scouts
sniper scouts
marksman scouts
AV scouts
and any other scout type that uses light weapons...
For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off?
The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings.
The suits that get the most eHP also are the only ones who get the freedom to run with the highest DPS weapon and the best AV weapon in the game while my assault suit cannot. Is that "Freedom to Fit"? No, it's called "balance".
Scout's advantage is it's scans, speed, regen, strafing ability, damps, 2 equip slots and access to cloaks. Not to mention their additional jumping height and sprint speed allow them to toss RE's ridiculously far, and that's cutting out the broken hit boxes and issues with brick tanking. They don't ALSO need access to high powered weaponry. And buffing assaults won't fix THAT large of a gap without making the assault game-breakingly good.
TL;DR: Balance>Everything
Edit: I'm open to better ideas if I hear them, but this is something that makes sense to me.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1883
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 19:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Vicious Minotaur wrote:So, lets kill off:
shotgun scouts
sniper scouts
marksman scouts
AV scouts
and any other scout type that uses light weapons...
For what reason, exactly? Oh, it doesn't "feel right?" It would feel "more right" to restrict scouts to sidearms? Is that it? Why? Why should entire playstyles be killed off? Why should DUSTs whole "freedom to fit" shtick be partially killed off?
The whole: "it doesn't feel right" ain't cutting it out as a reason. This community and even Rattati need more to go on than just feelings. For all we know, it could totally be bowel movements causing those feelings.
The suits that get the most eHP also are the only ones who get the freedom to run with the highest DPS weapon and the best AV weapon in the game while my assault suit cannot. Is that "Freedom to Fit"? No, it's called "balance". Scout's advantage is it's scans, speed, regen, strafing ability, damps, 2 equip slots and access to cloaks. Not to mention their additional jumping height and sprint speed allow them to toss RE's ridiculously far, and that's cutting out the broken hit boxes and issues with brick tanking. They don't ALSO need access to high powered weaponry. And buffing assaults won't fix THAT large of a gap without making the assault game-breakingly good. TL;DR: Balance>Everything Edit: I'm open to better ideas if I hear them, but this is something that makes sense to me. I respectfully disagree baal... balance is not greater than everything... not greater than fun. not greater than staying true to core gameplay balance is smoke and mirrors, it doesn't exist, it cannot exist. the reason it cant is because of the player, you cannot balance the player. case in point; with all those abilities that a scout has, and all those limitations on your assault suit, have you ever killed a scout? ever kill the same one over and over again? ever been on the boards above scouts using your assault? you see where I'm going I'll dispense with the interrogation... there are serious issues with every build, and some are far superior to others and while I agree all gear in the game needs serious adjustment, all fits in comparison to other fits and tweaking accordingly is by far the only way to get the best result... and even then once the player is thrown into the mix you will still encounter variables you did not expect which can make anything at any time seem OP or UP. and I'm sorry but restricting light weapons to any suit is not the answer...
Balance is not adjusted based on individual player skill v player skill, but on class v class. It is game balance, not "handicap the good players and carebear the bad players", nor is it "leave one class brokenly OP so we can say everything is customizable". For instance, throughout Chromosome the assault suit was by and far the best suit in the game, with the heavy playing a close second. Scouts were semi viable and Logi's were borderline good. That was not game balance. Good players were able to make due with bad suits, but that doesn't mean it was fair to the players who wanted to play that class but couldn't properly because it wasn't worth getting rolled every match.
Basically the problem right now isn't that the scout's strengths are too strong and need to be tweaked down. It's that it has so many that it can fill far too many roles, leaving the medium suits completely lacking by comparison in pretty much every way except the logi having an additional equipment slot and assaults being the *tiniest* bit tankier.
So... which scout traits would you trade off to keep the light weapon that would also bring the suit close to balanced? Their speed? Their scans? Their damps? Their cloak bonus? Their tiny hitboxes? Like I said, I'd be happy to hear ideas, but Middas is the only one so far who has put a sensible (from a game balance perspective) idea forward. Everyone else here just went into rage mode instead of coming up with a solid counter proposal, so I felt I should chime in.
I respect the hell out of your opinion Seymor, if you've got a solid option I'd be more than happy to hear it. 
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1885
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 20:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Shut up.
Fixing Scouts can is not a one hit hammer problem. There are multiple problems with the Scout Suits but a solution certainly isn't to Give scouts two side arms
1. The Hit Detection is god awful, this is primarily a reason why scouts are a huge nuisance as they are now. When you couple bad hit detection plus speed PLUS 550+ eHP you're going to have an OP fit.
2. Fix Brick Tanking among scouts, there's no reason for further analysis. Any sound minded individual knows that Speed + High Damage + High Health among infantry in a game like this is not a good idea. You can have one or the two, not exceed in all of them.
3. Buff Assaults, because in this ecosystem of scouts, they have no predator in their environment. This is causing them to become invasive. Introducing a Natural predator to the Scouts will result in a more balanced ecosystem.
What good is a predator who cannot see or scan his prey but his prey can see and scan him? There is nothing about the assault suit that makes it a "scout hunter".
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
|
Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1885
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 20:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:the respect is mutual.
first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu.
personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops.
this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly.
While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods.
I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak).
You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like.
I said that..... and all I heard was crickets.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
|
Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1887
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 21:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:the respect is mutual.
first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu.
personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops.
this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. this is an interesting idea, I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't this kind of update require the dreaded sony q/a process? even if ccp would do a major update like that they better do a lot of other things too lol... it seems like it would work but it's radically different from how the mechanics of the suits work by making them have to use a specific piece of equipment. wouldn't all other suits need something similar to balance this?
I've always believed each class should be unique and specialized for different things. I've also been in agreement with KAGEHOSHI for a while that the basic frame suits should have more utility than simply more expensive starter suits to get you to the point that you can unlock the cheaper, good suits.
As for the specializations...
The Logi has only one weapon but extra equips. The heavy has access to all weapons but is slow, fat and has very poor regen/scans/damps or equips. The Commando gains an equipment slot and a swap to 2 light slots in exchange for the loss of grenades. The assault.... is broken, so we'll ignore it for now. The scout would gain a unique ability passively that every other suit has to sacrifice pg/cpu for, in exchange it cannot equip anything BUT a cloak. Imho it's forced equipment parallels the heavy's forced no equipment very nicely.
As for it requiring a clientside update, very likely. But I didn't say my idea fit into CCP's parameters for patches.  I just thought I'd mention it since your idea reminded me of it.
The problem remains that as long as the pg/cpu for the cloak remains high, nerfing the scout's pg/cpu won't be the right fix for the job. You could reduce the cloak's pg/cpu.... but that's a whole other debate 
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
|
Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1891
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:the respect is mutual.
first off I think giving them a second equip slot was dumb... I get it was to give them a cloak and still have a slot ( or I assume this) and I think it was the wrong move. I say take that extra slot back and make it so the most bricked tank scout cant have more than 300 hp and make that only possible at the expense of better weapon or any equipment, so reduced pg/cpu.
personally I believe a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. stealth and speed are their strengths, they are not frontline assault troops.
this change while keeping their speed scans/damps should keep them viable while defining their role more clearly. While I like this idea, it does come with some quirks. The PG/CPU of the cloak is massive, so for any scout (especially non-proto scouts) who fits one will indeed have very little room for eHP if their CPU/PG is reduced. However.... if they opt not to fit a cloak, they get all of that lost pg/cpu to use for HP mods. I proposed a few weeks ago that the equipment slots be taken out all together from the scout class (not the basic frame suits, just the scout specialization) and give them a built-in a cloak module so they are forced to run with a cloak as their equipment. This way you could reduce their pg/cpu to prevent eHP tanking and allow them to cloak Each suit tier would have it's tier's cloak built in (STD suit/STD cloak, ADV suit/ADV cloak, PRO suit/Pro cloak). You leave the basic frame as it is so that if a scout WANT'S to run equipment, he has the option to do so (since you have to have light basic frame at ADV level to unlock the scout specialization anyway, giving your basic frames an actual purpose). By sacrificing his passive scans, damps and racial abilities and running a basic light frame suit, a scout can run 2 equips for whatever purpose they like. I said that..... and all I heard was crickets. it seems like it would work but it's radically different from how the mechanics of the suits work by making them have to use a specific piece of equipment. wouldn't all other suits need something similar to balance this? I've always believed each class should be unique and specialized for different things. I've also been in agreement with KAGEHOSHI for a while that the basic frame suits should have more utility than simply more expensive starter suits to get you to the point that you can unlock the cheaper, good suits. As for the specializations... The Logi has only one weapon but extra equips. The heavy has access to all weapons but is slow, fat and has very poor regen/scans/damps or equips. The Commando gains an equipment slot and a swap to 2 light slots in exchange for the loss of grenades. The assault.... is broken, so we'll ignore it for now. The scout would gain a unique ability passively that every other suit has to sacrifice pg/cpu for, in exchange it cannot equip anything BUT a cloak. Imho it's forced equipment parallels the heavy's forced no equipment very nicely. As for it requiring a clientside update, very likely. But I didn't say my idea fit into CCP's parameters for patches. I just thought I'd mention it since your idea reminded me of it. The problem remains that as long as the pg/cpu for the cloak remains high, nerfing the scout's pg/cpu won't be the right fix for the job. You could reduce the cloak's pg/cpu.... but that's a whole other debate this is why I think a reduction to there overall ehp would help... I'm not a numbers guy but just for an example give them say 25 base shields and 25 base armor and just enough pg/cpu that they can either fit a cloak and a proto weapon or a tank and nothing better than an adv weapon but no cloak. couple this with fixing their hitbox, and make the cloak a bit more cloaky again and they would be much more scouty...and I don't think a client side update would be required
Once again it is a fantastic theory, but the complex armor plate gives 135 (I.... think) armor hp. 2 of those (pretty sure every scout has at least 2 lows) on for less than the cost of the cloak, and you are already at 320 eHP with 25/25 base HP. Or 3 basics (85 a piece I think) would leave you at 305 with plenty extra pg/cpu to spare for additional shield modules. And the biggest issue would be the NPE, new players would shy away from anything that could be killed by a couple stray bullets.
I believe the easiest solution, in line with your thinking, would have to be to instead focus on drastically cutting the Gal and Cal scout's module layouts instead. This prevents an unnecessary nerf to the Amarr and Min-scouts who are already under performing compared to these two. Unfortunately, that will be scoffed at almost as much as the light weapon removal because it would look like this:
Cal:
STD 1/0
ADV 2/0
PRO 4/0
They have all the scans or shield tank they want, but in return they cannot armor tank or damp at all without a cloak. (beyond passives)
Gal:
STD 0/1
ADV 0/2
PRO 0/4
They have all the damps and armor tank they want, but in return they cannot shield tank or scan without a scanner. (beyond passives)
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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