DUST Search - Hotfix Charlie - Finally Balancing the Rifles

All Channels

General Discussions

Hotfix Charlie - Finally Balancing the Rifles

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2965	Posted - 2014.07.02 13:50:00 - [1] - Quote https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 1175	Posted - 2014.07.02 13:53:00 - [2] - Quote Dont even need to look at that to know that ScR rifles need nerfed to **** Nemo me impune lacessit CCP - Announcing games at the same time as killing the ones you love CCP - No Credibility
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 156	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:02:00 - [3] - Quote SCRs better not get nerfed. But if they reduce heat cost ALOT then I will be fine with the changes. Hard to kill fast armor tankers sometimes that are skilled. Over heat is a big issue.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2965	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:02:00 - [4] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: Dont even need to look at that to know that ScR rifles need nerfed to **** It is worth pointing out these DPS values are the absolute maximum. While most people can't achieve these values with standard controllers it shows the need for ROF caps. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2965	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:04:00 - [5] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: SCRs better not get nerfed. But if they reduce heat cost ALOT then I will be fine with the changes. Hard to kill fast armor tankers sometimes that are skilled. Over heat is a big issue. The Scrambler Rifle doesn't need a 'traditional nerf' but it needs a rate of fire cap (six rounds per second) in order to control that higher DPS. The same needs to be done to the Combat Rifle and Tactical Rifle My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Atiim Fooly Cooly. 10126	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:27:00 - [6] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: SCRs better not get nerfed. But if they reduce heat cost ALOT then I will be fine with the changes. Hard to kill fast armor tankers sometimes that are skilled. Over heat is a big issue. The Scrambler Rifle doesn't need a 'traditional nerf' but it needs a rate of fire cap (six rounds per second) in order to control that higher DPS. The same needs to be done to the Combat Rifle and Tactical Rifle I'd also say that it needs a hip-fire nerf, as it's too good in CQC for something that's supposed to be a long range weapon. Forum Warrior Proficiency V -HAND
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2328	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:29:00 - [7] - Quote Are you trolling? The RR is crap compared to CR. As is every other fine rifle, except perhaps the ScR. Time to put down the graphs and shoot more bad guys. You're just plain wrong. Try the CR. See for yourself. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 3449	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:29:00 - [8] - Quote The ACR is the best rifle. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2967	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:32:00 - [9] - Quote Atiim wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: SCRs better not get nerfed. But if they reduce heat cost ALOT then I will be fine with the changes. Hard to kill fast armor tankers sometimes that are skilled. Over heat is a big issue. The Scrambler Rifle doesn't need a 'traditional nerf' but it needs a rate of fire cap (six rounds per second) in order to control that higher DPS. The same needs to be done to the Combat Rifle and Tactical Rifle I'd also say that it needs a hip-fire nerf, as it's too good in CQC for something that's supposed to be a long range weapon. Yes this also rather necessary, the DPS and Range are not the only things that need to be balanced. Gallante ------- Minmatar --------- Amarr --------- Caldari DPS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Range Hipfire Accuracy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ADS Accuracy Kick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Recoil My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2967	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:34:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Are you trolling? The RR is crap compared to CR. As is every other fine rifle, except perhaps the ScR. Time to put down the graphs and shoot more bad guys. You're just plain wrong. Try the CR. See for yourself. No these numbers are real, the RR and ARR have the longest range, and nowhere near the lowest DPS, this is broken. I do agree however that the Burst Combat Rifle requires a ROB (Rate of Burst) cap so that no more than 4 bursts a second are possible My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2328	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:35:00 - [11] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: No these numbers are real ... That explains why Nyain San doesn't use Combat Rifles. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2967	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:36:00 - [12] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: The ACR is the best rifle. To the contrary it has one the lowest ranges and one of the lowest DPS values, you maybe confusing it with the Burst Combat Rifle, which is capable of being fired fully automatic and has considerbly more range. Secondly you may simply be encountering better players who use the ACR than the RR who sit in Sentinel Suits. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2967	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:38:00 - [13] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: No these numbers are real ... That explains why Nyain San doesn't use Combat Rifles. Precisely, look at the values as you can see the Scrambler Rifle has by far the highest 'achievable' DPS, however the RR has the longest range and highly competitive DPS, this is why they still are so well used. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2328	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:40:00 - [14] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: No these numbers are real ... That explains why Nyain San doesn't use Combat Rifles. Precisely, look at the values as you can see the Scrambler Rifle has by far the highest 'achievable' DPS, however the RR has the longest range and highly competitive DPS, this is why they still are so well used. I was pulling your chain. If you played Dust, you'd realize that Nyain San uses CR more than anything else. Seriously, you're missing something. Play the game. Test your theories. See that you are wrong. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect Dirt Nap Squad. 1405	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:42:00 - [15] - Quote I totally agree, buff the assault combat rifle
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2967	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:44:00 - [16] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: No these numbers are real ... That explains why Nyain San doesn't use Combat Rifles. Precisely, look at the values as you can see the Scrambler Rifle has by far the highest 'achievable' DPS, however the RR has the longest range and highly competitive DPS, this is why they still are so well used. Not precisely. I was pulling your chain. If you played Dust, you'd realize that Nyain San uses CR more than anything else. Personally I see them with shotgun's more often than not! But once again refer to my Rate of Burst Cap on Combat Rifles, I'm not saying the CR is balanced, infact what I'm saying is they are all broken. I do play regularly using an ACR, and still do moderately. But just because I can do well with the weapon does not mean that it or any other weapon is balanced. Furthermore the Projectile profile is broken, I have omitted this from the data in the graph. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 3449	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:47:00 - [17] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The ACR is the best rifle. To the contrary it has one the lowest ranges and one of the lowest DPS values, you maybe confusing it with the Burst Combat Rifle, which is capable of being fired fully automatic and has considerbly more range. Secondly you may simply be encountering better players who use the ACR than the RR who sit in Sentinel Suits. I'm encountering scouts using the ACR like its a long range shotgun. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2328	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:49:00 - [18] - Quote You should take this thread down. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2968	Posted - 2014.07.02 15:18:00 - [19] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: The ACR is the best rifle. To the contrary it has one the lowest ranges and one of the lowest DPS values, you maybe confusing it with the Burst Combat Rifle, which is capable of being fired fully automatic and has considerbly more range. Secondly you may simply be encountering better players who use the ACR than the RR who sit in Sentinel Suits. I'm encountering scouts using the ACR like its a long range shotgun. "Scouts" My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2968	Posted - 2014.07.02 15:20:00 - [20] - Quote This however is much more balanced https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OYGYch9cUVaM9jX06BTUC9pc5LY8w6wrtQHjMKn6z5w/edit?usp=sharing My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2

Izlare Lenix BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 754	Posted - 2014.07.02 15:44:00 - [21] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: Dont even need to look at that to know that ScR rifles need nerfed to **** Do you even use the ScR? Because if you did you would know it is the most balanced rifle in the game because of heat buildup and it has the worst damage profile. The ScR is the least used of all the rifles. And since most players will always flock to the most OP weapon available, the ScR being the least used proves for most players it's cons outweigh its pros. I have used the ScR for more than six months and I love it because I have adapted to it. But the Boundless CR is so much stronger than the viziam it's not even funny. I stopped useing the CR a while ago because it is too easy. At least with the ScR I have to aim properly and manage overheat. The CR is just point and shoot until reload. Players have always claimed the ScR is too strong yet the simple fact it has never filled the kill feed like CRs, RRs, Hmgs and shotguns disproves this claim. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2968	Posted - 2014.07.02 15:56:00 - [22] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Obodiah Garro wrote: Dont even need to look at that to know that ScR rifles need nerfed to **** Do you even use the ScR? Because if you did you would know it is the most balanced rifle in the game because of heat buildup and it has the worst damage profile. The ScR is the least used of all the rifles. And since most players will always flock to the most OP weapon available, the ScR being the least used proves for most players it's cons outweigh its pros. I have used the ScR for more than six months and I love it because I have adapted to it. But the Boundless CR is so much stronger than the viziam it's not even funny. I stopped useing the CR a while ago because it is too easy. At least with the ScR I have to aim properly and manage overheat. The CR is just point and shoot until reload. Players have always claimed the ScR is too strong yet the simple fact it has never filled the kill feed like CRs, RRs, Hmgs and shotguns disproves this claim. This is not necessarily what the graph shows, the graph only shows the highest achievable DPS, it does not show, damage profile or other limitations. However it does show the ScR needs a ROF cap so that it can NEVER reach the 800 DPS it currently can. What this shows is how there is no organization to the rifles, how some of the shortest range rifles also have the lowest damage. Etc etc. Because of the current state of rifles their is no tactical choice between races only mathematical! This why the Burst Combat Rifle and the RR are so prelevant. It needs proper balancing! My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Lea Silencio 0uter.Heaven 1546	Posted - 2014.07.02 16:17:00 - [23] - Quote The ScR is the LEAST used of all of the rifle variants. Confirmed by CCP. I know this has nothing to do with anything...just thought I would remind people. PurificationGäó It's what I do. Amarr Victor
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3926	Posted - 2014.07.02 16:40:00 - [24] - Quote OP, either your numbers are wrong or they're meaningless. RR is a pub gun these days; it can't compete with AR let alone CR any more, and a good ScR user wrecks everything without being able to touch that RoF. Lea Silencio wrote: The ScR is the LEAST used of all of the rifle variants. Confirmed by CCP. I know this has nothing to do with anything...just thought I would remind people. As a ScR user I would just like to emphasise that correlation =/= causation and just because it is unused doesn't necessarily mean it isn't OP (though I don't think it is). I think it could use an RoF cap to about 550 though. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Atiim Fooly Cooly. 10129	Posted - 2014.07.02 16:42:00 - [25] - Quote Lea Silencio wrote: The ScR is the LEAST used of all of the rifle variants. Confirmed by CCP. I know this has nothing to do with anything...just thought I would remind people. Quality Gëá Quantity The Swarm Launcher was the 3rd least used weapon in Uprising 1.3, but that doesn't change the fact that it was "OP" either; just a friendly reminder as well. Forum Warrior Proficiency V -HAND
Alpha 443-6732 BurgezzE.T.F 531	Posted - 2014.07.02 17:36:00 - [26] - Quote The CR is the only problem rifle at the moment. There are many more relevant factors to balance from instead of simply using dps and range. You would completely destroy balance with these changes. OP is either a troll or just ******* deluded.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:17:00 - [27] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: The CR is the only problem rifle at the moment. There are many more relevant factors to balance from instead of simply using dps and range. You would completely destroy balance with these changes. OP is either a troll or just ******* deluded. Thank you for your well structured and organized arguement. However, I am aware there is more to perfect balance than just range vs dps. However, however, Let's Assume that we fix the Combat Rifles profile. So that +20% Armour and -20% Shields All assault rifles have similar magazine sizes, so I put to you if you are balancing weapons off their 'feel', are you sure that is the best to balance. What difference does ROF make when the DPS is the same? Recoil make if the target is dead before it leaves the target? Sure there is more to it than that, but Range vs DPS is by far the most important factor! My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Tectonic Fusion 1837	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:23:00 - [28] - Quote I don't even. Facepalm. Epic fail. jackie chan face. /thread
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:30:00 - [29] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: I don't even. Facepalm. Epic fail. jackie chan face. /thread Fantastic data, brilliant arguments, unbelievable presentation! 10/10 My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Tectonic Fusion 1837	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:31:00 - [30] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: I don't even. Facepalm. Epic fail. jackie chan face. /thread Fantastic data, brilliant arguments, unbelievable presentation! 10/10 Very doge. Much epicness. Fantastic. 10/10 would fap to again.

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:49:00 - [31] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: I don't even. Facepalm. Epic fail. jackie chan face. /thread Fantastic data, brilliant arguments, unbelievable presentation! 10/10 Very doge. Much epicness. Fantastic. 10/10 would fap to again. So in short do you hve a reason in not believing in the balance? Arguements not allowed This isn't all balance is - True, but if the weapons DPS and Range aren't balanced, how do you expect to legitimately balance the rest? This would break current balance, we are almost balanced - False this would simply shift the balance. Is it balanced that Burst Blaster Rifle is the worst Rifle? Is it balanced that Minmatar weaponry is competitive because of an unbalanced profile? Is it balanced that the Scramblers have a higher DPS/m ratio because of specalised profile? The graph shows the sorry state the rifles are in, it shows EXACTLY why the BrRR and BuCR are the most commonly used weapons! My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15104	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:02:00 - [32] - Quote This is a ridiculous suggestion. You're looked at range and DPS. That's it. Nothing else. What about any of the following factors? Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio Clip size Charge time Overheat Damage per clip Hipfire accuracy Recoil Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Damage profile How can you possibly think this is something remotely approaching balanced? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:20:00 - [33] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This is a ridiculous suggestion. You're looked at range and DPS. That's it. Nothing else. What about any of the following factors? Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel. Clip size The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS Charge time Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first Overheat This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std Damage per clip If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor Hipfire accuracy As I said earlier this and ADS accuracy need to be adjusted in a similar fashion Recoil Longer range less recoil, since paralax will even it out to the same as short range Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate. Damage profile If we assume that projectile profile is fixed lieu, then this is only strengthens my balance further. How can you possibly think this is something remotely approaching balanced? How can you possibly think this anything but balanced? P.s thank you for actually having a discussion. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2775	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:30:00 - [34] - Quote Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. The Rifles are pretty damn close to balanced anyway, so why start over? You also have to realize that these changes would DRASTICALLY increase TTK, which is also in a good place for the most part. Again, why start from scratch when we are so close to finished and the DEVs are finally learning to take small steps with balancing.... Another thing I would like to point out is that is that the would literally break the ScR into a state where it would be preferable to use the Ion Pistol instead because fit would be easier to fit... Ur bad at balancing and u shud feel bad. :p My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Tectonic Fusion 1837	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:33:00 - [35] - Quote Worse hipfire if it gets less heat buildup. Just slightly though, and slightly worse hipfire.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15105	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:41:00 - [36] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This is a ridiculous suggestion. You're looked at range and DPS. That's it. Nothing else. What about any of the following factors? Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel. Clip size The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS Charge time Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first Overheat This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std Damage per clip If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor Hipfire accuracy As I said earlier this and ADS accuracy need to be adjusted in a similar fashion Recoil Longer range less recoil, since paralax will even it out to the same as short range Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate. Damage profile If we assume that projectile profile is fixed lieu, then this is only strengthens my balance further. How can you possibly think this is something remotely approaching balanced? How can you possibly think this anything but balanced? P.s thank you for actually having a discussion. Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel. It does make a difference to the weapon operation. The feel has an effect on how you work the weapon. If you have a very high rate of fire weapon you can use spray and pray attacks. If you have high damage per shot, your shots tend to be more measured. That will affect how you play, and also the effect of weapons. Clip size The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS Charge time Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first 'Minimal'? It has an effect. Look at the DPS differences between rifles you're proposing. Check how much DPS you lose in the first second of an engagement to charge time. To call that effect minimal would be to call your proposed changes minimal. Overheat This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std [u]It's more restrictive. Once overheated, you can't fire, switch to a sidearm, sprint, reload, or change to equipment, and it takes longer to cool down than it does to reload. The effect is somewhat similar to clip size but it isn't the same. Damage per clip If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor [u]How do you define sustained DPS as 'balanced'? In the same way as your rifle scaling of DPS vs range? I have similar thoughts on the next couple of points which I omitted. Just as a sliding scale? Near-complete homogeneity except for that sliding scale? Hipfire accuracy Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate. [u]No. You can't fire a combat rifle at its full rate. For one thing your DPS calculation is flawed because there's an enforced fire delay between bursts. And you're not going to be able to hit the trigger at the precise millisecond that the delay finishes. It doesn't happen. Such a thing is so precise modded controllers struggle with it sometimes even with the exceptional trigger rate. You can fire a CR at a rapid rate, yes. But you never attain the full fire rate. As for suggesting capping the fire rate so viciously... Have you ever tried using, say, a scrambler pistol? Tap the trigger twice in rapid succession. How many times does it fire? If you do it at a reasonable rate, the answer is once. That's because you have oversampling. That'll drop the real DPS value well below your theoretical value. What kind of balance do you want to achieve with these changes? What you're suggesting is near-complete homogeneity, reducing the differences between the weapons massively. In the end, all you are suggesting is a DPS vs range and accuracy slider. Rifle balance is imperfect. This is, however, absolutely not the way to do it. How can I think it's anything but balanced? Because it's a completely stupid set of changes. I'm struggling to explain this to you because frankly the idea seems so utterly idiotic that I don't understand how you can see this as sane. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:42:00 - [37] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. The Rifles are pretty damn close to balanced anyway, so why start over? You also have to realize that these changes would DRASTICALLY increase TTK, which is also in a good place for the most part. Again, why start from scratch when we are so close to finished and the DEVs are finally learning to take small steps with balancing.... Another thing I would like to point out is that is that the would literally break the ScR into a state where it would be preferable to use the Ion Pistol instead because fit would be easier to fit... Ur bad at balancing and u shud feel bad. :p TTK would actually be in general be the same, just more spread out. The ScR is a rather broken thing in my opinion anyway, in the Assault Version the Overheat is a non-factor unless you burn through 2 whole mags continously. As for the standard it serves little purpose but stop people spamming it, when you could just as easily put a max fire cap. I have no doubt it probably won't happen, at least maybe not here in DUST (maybe legion). As my graph shows we are nowhere near true balance, it's just what people 'feel' is right. The burst rifle, even with hotfix bravo is still the WORST rifle. There is no organization, there is no role or preferred range, it's just a higgeldpiggeldy mess that 'feels' like It's close to balance. I don't feel bad, as far as I'm concerned this is pure common sense. Since as far as I believe the easiest way to make things balanced is too have as little statistical difference between two weapons of the same role as possible. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2976	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:05:00 - [38] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [quote=Monkey MAC][quote=Arkena Wyrnspire] Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel. It does make a difference to the weapon operation. The feel has an effect on how you work the weapon. If you have a very high rate of fire weapon you can use spray and pray attacks. If you have high damage per shot, your shots tend to be more measured. That will affect how you play, and also the effect of weapons. Yes, exactly it's your style, nothing more. Caldari typically favour higher damage per shot while having lower DPS, while minmatar have lowest damge per shot and highest ROF Clip size The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS Charge time Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first 'Minimal'? It has an effect. Look at the DPS differences between rifles you're proposing. Check how much DPS you lose in the first second of an engagement to charge time. To call that effect minimal would be to call your proposed changes minimal. I would most definitely say minimal, but yes charge would be shortened anyway. Overheat This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std [u]It's more restrictive. Once overheated, you can't fire, switch to a sidearm, sprint, reload, or change to equipment, and it takes longer to cool down than it does to reload. The effect is somewhat similar to clip size but it isn't the same. It's also easier to avoid overheating in the first place. One of the problems with the Scrambler Rifle is you can drastically outclass everyone by simply spamming it for brute DPS, or you fire slower and drastically outclass them with sustained DPS, it am entirely unbalanced mechanic. Damage per clip If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor [u]How do you define sustained DPS as 'balanced'? In the same way as your rifle scaling of DPS vs range? I have similar thoughts on the next couple of points which I omitted. Just as a sliding scale? Near-complete homogeneity except for that sliding scale? Pretty much I would not expect sustained DPS to vary dramatically between rifles. Hipfire accuracy - Alreadh discussed Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate. [u]No. You can't fire a combat rifle at its full rate. For one thing your DPS calculation is flawed because there's an enforced fire delay between bursts. And you're not going to be able to hit the trigger at the precise millisecond that the delay finishes. It doesn't happen. Such a thing is so precise modded controllers struggle with it sometimes even with the exceptional trigger rate. You can fire a CR at a rapid rate, yes. But you never attain the full fire rate. So you can reach 6 shots a second, I know corps who train to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at fully automatic, because when you do it becomes broken. As for suggesting capping the fire rate so viciously... Have you ever tried using, say, a scrambler pistol? Tap the trigger twice in rapid succession. How many times does it fire? If you do it at a reasonable rate, the answer is once. That's because you have oversampling. That'll drop the real DPS value well below your theoretical value. Not necessarily, if pull the trigger on my Ion Pistol really quickly will continue to fire 1 or 2 shots after I stop. You buffer the shots. Or you use the overheat function to its maximum potential and yo use that to create the cap. Having wildly high potential DPS/ROF on semi-automatic/bursts weapons has been one of the main banes of this game since day one. What kind of balance do you want to achieve with these changes? What you're suggesting is near-complete homogeneity, reducing the differences between the weapons massively. In the end, all you are suggesting is a DPS vs range and accuracy slider. That's exactly what I want hemogeny, you shouldn't be choosing a weapon simply because it has the best DPS/Range ratio, because that is what we currently have, the majority of the playerbase chooses their rifles based on which one will kick the most *** over the greatest variety of range. If the rifles are balanced then the DPS and range shouldn't need to be considered so closely. You choose your prefered ramge, then choose your preffered race from each variant set. Your choice on why you choose a specific weapon is because that weapon best suits your style. Not because it's the best weapon out of the roster. Rifle balance is imperfect. This is, however, absolutely not the way to do it. How can I think it's anything but balanced? Because it's a completely stupid set of changes. I'm struggling to explain this to you because frankly the idea seems so utterly idiotic that I don't understand how you can see this as sane. Two sides of a mirror my friend! My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2776	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:19:00 - [39] - Quote Don't even get me started on oversampling... If Monkey understood it, he would have never suggested a fire rate of ~250 RPM for the ScR. He doesn't know fully what he's talking about methinks. Edit: Did you know my casual fire rate for the ScR is about 425 RPM? And and I can fire quite a bit faster than that if I need to(~500RPM). I would oversample every other trigger pull with a limited as hell fire rare like that. This is why I stopped using the ScP. My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Mejt0 Made in Poland... E-R-A 174	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:29:00 - [40] - Quote Stop looking at rifles with idea short range = highest dps, higher range = lower dps. Rifles in Dust are broken in terms of gun mechanism. Lack of recoil,kick etc., makes things like best/worst guns. With guns laser precision it all make no sense.q

Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2777	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:32:00 - [41] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: Stop looking at rifles with idea short range = highest dps, higher range = lower dps. Rifles in Dust are broken in terms of gun mechanism. Lack of recoil,kick etc., makes things like best/worst guns. With guns laser precision it all make no sense.q With tracking shooters, miniscule amounts of recoil/kick is fine. This isn't a twitch shooter. My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15107	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:41:00 - [42] - Quote I'm going to sleep now, so I'll keep this one brief. 1. Shots do not buffer when oversampling enough that you can get anywhere near the maximum fire rate, regardless of what it's set at. Those ion pistol shots you fired? You tapped the trigger more times than you fired shots, or you were firing slowly. 2. The feel of the weapon most certainly does affect the weapon operation. It's not just personal 'style', it changes the way you play and the effectiveness of an option in certain situations - and thus, the weapon operation. 3. Are you suggesting shortening charge? Charge is a good mechanic. Why? 4. I'm sensing some SCR hate here. You suggest its advantages as its 'problems'. Do you believe it's overpowered? If so, why do you think it's the least used rifle? It's apparently not because of the overheat - in your own words, that's easily avoidable. Quote: That's exactly what I want hemogeny, you shouldn't be choosing a weapon simply because it has the best DPS/Range ratio, because that is what we currently have, the majority of the playerbase chooses their rifles based on which one will kick the most *** over the greatest variety of range. If the rifles are balanced then the DPS and range shouldn't need to be considered so closely. You choose your prefered ramge, then choose your preffered race from each variant set. Your choice on why you choose a specific weapon is because that weapon best suits your style. Not because it's the best weapon out of the roster. Homogeneity is the 'easy' balance solution. You can balance everything very easily by making it the same, of course. That kills variety, though. It is a bad solution. In the rifles we have at the moment, there is variety. Quite a bit of it. When you propose homogeneity in the items, though, all potential variety is lost. The only variety you're leaning towards is the DPS vs range slider and whether you tap the trigger repeatedly or hold it down. To kill off variety and make things the same would 'balance' rifles. The game would be much worse off for it, though. It's very easy to balance things when you kill variety. The easy option is certainly very attractive when going off a single spreadsheet. It does lead you to terrible conclusions and poor solutions, though. For example, you conclude that the assault combat rifle is the worst of the assault variants. Really? Can you guess which of the assault variants is the most used competitively? Or by, say, Nyain San, who certainly have a good eye for genuinely effective options? This is spreadsheet warrioring with little regard for how it'll actually work out. It shouldn't be about having people select the 'best' option. It should be about people selecting the option which fits their playstyle and they like the most. A DPS vs range slider is not sufficient for real variety. It is entirely possible to have a set of rifles which have significant differences to create a genuinely rich variety of rifles rather than a shallow slider option. Think harder about it. What are the problems with rifles right now? Why are these problems? Which ones need fixing? How would you fix it to ensure real variety? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2976	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:41:00 - [43] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Don't even get me started on oversampling... If Monkey understood it, he would have never suggested a fire rate of ~250 RPM for the ScR. He doesn't know fully what he's talking about methinks. Edit: Did you know my casual fire rate for the ScR is about 425 RPM? And and I can fire quite a bit faster than that if I need to(~500RPM). I would oversample every other trigger pull with a limited as hell fire rare like that. This is why I stopped using the ScP. But that's exactly why it's also broken now, some people can barely mamage 5 pulls a second while some are using the same weapon with 8+ trigger pulls and getting massively overpowered damage. Is it fair to penalise the first guy for not being able to push a button quickly enough? Is it fair to reward the second guy because he can push a button really fast? Does it require skill to be able to push a button really quickly? As for 6 shots per second, yeah ok that is a little OTT but it gets my point across. Semi-Auto/Burst weapons should have an easily achievable max fire rate, otherwise it's use varies too much! I do understand over sampling, from mamy perspectives, however it easier to slow down then it is too speed up. A player should rarely feel the only reason they lost is because they failed to rapidly depress a button faster tham their opponent. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2778	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:52:00 - [44] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Don't even get me started on oversampling... If Monkey understood it, he would have never suggested a fire rate of ~250 RPM for the ScR. He doesn't know fully what he's talking about methinks. Edit: Did you know my casual fire rate for the ScR is about 425 RPM? And and I can fire quite a bit faster than that if I need to(~500RPM). I would oversample every other trigger pull with a limited as hell fire rare like that. This is why I stopped using the ScP. But that's exactly why it's also broken now, some people can barely mamage 5 pulls a second while some are using the same weapon with 8+ trigger pulls and getting massively overpowered damage. Is it fair to penalise the first guy for not being able to push a button quickly enough? Is it fair to reward the second guy because he can push a button really fast? Does it require skill to be able to push a button really quickly? As for 6 shots per second, yeah ok that is a little OTT but it gets my point across. Semi-Auto/Burst weapons should have an easily achievable max fire rate, otherwise it's use varies too much! I do understand over sampling, from mamy perspectives, however it easier to slow down then it is too speed up. A player should rarely feel the only reason they lost is because they failed to rapidly depress a button faster tham their opponent. If you can't manage to fire a semiautomatic weapon more than 5 times per second, don't use semiautomatics. Period . Don't punish people with fast trigger fingers because some people can't do what they can. That's like putting a speed limit on the 500m Dash in the Olympics so that anyone can compete. It's silly. The first guy isn't being penalized for anything other than his own shortcomings. Your idea would penalize people such as myself, and reward nobody. Semiautomatics/Bursts by their very nature have varied DPS. Why take that away from them? If all you really want is a homogenic shooter, go away from Dust please. My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2976	Posted - 2014.07.03 01:05:00 - [45] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I'm going to sleep now, so I'll keep this one brief. 1. Shots do not buffer when oversampling enough that you can get anywhere near the maximum fire rate, regardless of what it's set at. Those ion pistol shots you fired? You tapped the trigger more times than you fired shots, or you were firing slowly. 2. The feel of the weapon most certainly does affect the weapon operation. It's not just personal 'style', it changes the way you play and the effectiveness of an option in certain situations - and thus, the weapon operation. 3. Are you suggesting shortening charge? Charge is a good mechanic. Why? 4. I'm sensing some SCR hate here. You suggest its advantages as its 'problems'. Do you believe it's overpowered? If so, why do you think it's the least used rifle? It's apparently not because of the overheat - in your own words, that's easily avoidable. Quote: That's exactly what I want hemogeny, you shouldn't be choosing a weapon simply because it has the best DPS/Range ratio, because that is what we currently have, the majority of the playerbase chooses their rifles based on which one will kick the most *** over the greatest variety of range. If the rifles are balanced then the DPS and range shouldn't need to be considered so closely. You choose your prefered ramge, then choose your preffered race from each variant set. Your choice on why you choose a specific weapon is because that weapon best suits your style. Not because it's the best weapon out of the roster. Homogeneity is the 'easy' balance solution. You can balance everything very easily by making it the same, of course. That kills variety, though. It is a bad solution. In the rifles we have at the moment, there is variety. Quite a bit of it. When you propose homogeneity in the items, though, all potential variety is lost. The only variety you're leaning towards is the DPS vs range slider and whether you tap the trigger repeatedly or hold it down. To kill off variety and make things the same would 'balance' rifles. The game would be much worse off for it, though. It's very easy to balance things when you kill variety. The easy option is certainly very attractive when going off a single spreadsheet. It does lead you to terrible conclusions and poor solutions, though. For example, you conclude that the assault combat rifle is the worst of the assault variants. Really? Can you guess which of the assault variants is the most used competitively? Or by, say, Nyain San, who certainly have a good eye for genuinely effective options? This is spreadsheet warrioring with little regard for how it'll actually work out. It shouldn't be about having people select the 'best' option. It should be about people selecting the option which fits their playstyle and they like the most. A DPS vs range slider is not sufficient for real variety. It is entirely possible to have a set of rifles which have significant differences to create a genuinely rich variety of rifles rather than a shallow slider option. Think harder about it. What are the problems with rifles right now? Why are these problems? Which ones need fixing? How would you fix it to ensure real variety? Hmm see that's where opinions differ, by removing such unorganised values it allows you too make much more variety by making each rifle vary in style. If the range and DPS are uniform/proportional then there is more creative leeway within other aspects of the weapons. By eliminating them fro the choice, your weapon is less about which is the most effective, where corps like Nyan Sian don't all up choosing the same weapon (personally I see them running Burst Combat Rifles and Rail Rifles amd Shotguns more than the Assault Combat Rifle). You assume that I merely want each rifle to be almost exactly the same, the truth is, I wamt the exact opposit, I want each races rifles to be unique in style, the problem is so long as some have greater DPS/pm than others we will contine in a buff/nerf cycle. It's eaither they are all much the same style, or they all uniform DPS/Range 1. Felt like it to me, wether you believe me or not is your perogative, as I explained which do you do? Penalise someone because they can't tap fast enough? Or reward someome because they tap, too fast? 2. That's style, if you have 2 weapons same DPS, different ROF, they can still be used in the same circumstances the only difference is percieved by the user. I prefer high ROF not because it makes more accurate , or because I can afford to miss more shots, I just like the feel. 60% accuracy will always give those 2 weapins the same DPS, irrespective of ROF. 3. I was under the impression you didn't like it, if you wish to maintain a longer charge, you give a shorter reload such that: Charge + TTE + Reload == TTE + Reload Changes the feel of the weapin with out changing it's sustained DPS. Balanced 4. I neither hate nor love the ScR anymore than any other rifle I don't use. But yes I believe it's overpowered, the only reason it's not more prominent, is because in the current armour based climate it's profile holds it back. However soon as there is greater balance (and thus popularity) in shields it will become overpowered. It's an overpowered rifle in an unbalanced environment. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2976	Posted - 2014.07.03 01:13:00 - [46] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Don't even get me started on oversampling... If Monkey understood it, he would have never suggested a fire rate of ~250 RPM for the ScR. He doesn't know fully what he's talking about methinks. Edit: Did you know my casual fire rate for the ScR is about 425 RPM? And and I can fire quite a bit faster than that if I need to(~500RPM). I would oversample every other trigger pull with a limited as hell fire rare like that. This is why I stopped using the ScP. But that's exactly why it's also broken now, some people can barely mamage 5 pulls a second while some are using the same weapon with 8+ trigger pulls and getting massively overpowered damage. Is it fair to penalise the first guy for not being able to push a button quickly enough? Is it fair to reward the second guy because he can push a button really fast? Does it require skill to be able to push a button really quickly? As for 6 shots per second, yeah ok that is a little OTT but it gets my point across. Semi-Auto/Burst weapons should have an easily achievable max fire rate, otherwise it's use varies too much! I do understand over sampling, from mamy perspectives, however it easier to slow down then it is too speed up. A player should rarely feel the only reason they lost is because they failed to rapidly depress a button faster tham their opponent. If you can't manage to fire a semiautomatic weapon more than 5 times per second, don't use semiautomatics. Period . Don't punish people with fast trigger fingers because some people can't do what they can. That's like putting a speed limit on the 500m Dash in the Olympics so that anyone can compete. It's silly. The first guy isn't being penalized for anything other than his own shortcomings. Your idea would penalize people such as myself, and reward nobody. Semiautomatics/Bursts by their very nature have varied DPS. Why take that away from them? If all you really want is a homogenic shooter, go away from Dust please. So you think it's fair that because you have a faster trigger finger you should be rewarded? That's like saying I should be paid more because I can touchtype faster than someone else! It's like saying your not allowed to play bowling because you bowl too slow! The reason I came to DUST was to get away from the games where all you do is choose the gun at the far end of the tree. I came here so that when I played, my weapon wasn't awsome because it was a lvl 32 unlock, but because I made it awsome. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2778	Posted - 2014.07.03 01:48:00 - [47] - Quote Guess what? I make ScRs awesome with my fingers. If you take that from me, you would be a hypocrite. My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon.
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 787	Posted - 2014.07.03 05:28:00 - [48] - Quote Lea Silencio wrote: The ScR is the LEAST used of all of the rifle variants. Confirmed by CCP. I know this has nothing to do with anything...just thought I would remind people. i would say its because it takes the most skill to use and there is not many skilled people playing this game so they chose a different rifle but i think the ScR is a top gun. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
Jett Pezzin Terminal Courtesy 192	Posted - 2014.07.03 05:48:00 - [49] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: No these numbers are real ... That explains why Nyain San doesn't use Combat Rifles. Yes they do. ^.^
Cheydinhal Guard Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 115	Posted - 2014.07.03 06:56:00 - [50] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: SCRs better not get nerfed. But if they reduce heat cost ALOT then I will be fine with the changes. Hard to kill fast armor tankers sometimes that are skilled. Over heat is a big issue. The Scrambler Rifle doesn't need a 'traditional nerf' but it needs a rate of fire cap (six rounds per second) in order to control that higher DPS. The same needs to be done to the Combat Rifle and Tactical Rifle The Tac AR finally gets a good RoF buff and becomes somewhat more useful, and you want it nerfed again? Unbelievable. You filthy amarr, with your golden guns and your sparkling merc quarters....Curse you.. GalLogi to the end

Mejt0 Made in Poland... E-R-A 177	Posted - 2014.07.09 17:28:00 - [51] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Lea Silencio wrote: The ScR is the LEAST used of all of the rifle variants. Confirmed by CCP. I know this has nothing to do with anything...just thought I would remind people. i would say its because it takes the most skill to use and there is not many skilled people playing this game so they chose a different rifle but i think the ScR is a top gun. Youre paethic. What skill does ScR needs? Do you need skills to hold trigger with HMG? NO Hardest and most rewarding gun in this game, is as everybody knows (no, its not ScR..you amarians) Plasma Cannon. Its fhard to use it, and it does reward much with OHK. You have one shoot. You OHK and youre winner, you miss and youre looser.
Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2875	Posted - 2014.07.09 17:32:00 - [52] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Lea Silencio wrote: The ScR is the LEAST used of all of the rifle variants. Confirmed by CCP. I know this has nothing to do with anything...just thought I would remind people. i would say its because it takes the most skill to use and there is not many skilled people playing this game so they chose a different rifle but i think the ScR is a top gun. Youre paethic. What skill does ScR needs? Do you need skills to hold trigger with HMG? NO Hardest and most rewarding gun in this game, is as everybody knows (no, its not ScR..you amarians) Plasma Cannon. Its fhard to use it, and it does reward much with OHK. You have one shoot. You OHK and youre winner, you miss and youre looser. They were comparing the rifles. And it would be right to say that out of the 4 main rifles, the ScR takes to most skill to master. My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon. Please unnerf ScPs and fix IoPs...


Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.