DUST Search - Hotfix Charlie - Finally Balancing the Rifles

Monkey MAC wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

This is a ridiculous suggestion.

You're looked at range and DPS. That's it. Nothing else.

What about any of the following factors?

Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio
This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel.

Clip size
The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS

Charge time
Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first

Overheat
This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std

Damage per clip
If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor

Hipfire accuracy
As I said earlier this and ADS accuracy need to be adjusted in a similar fashion

Recoil
Longer range less recoil, since paralax will even it out to the same as short range

Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever)
Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate.

Damage profile
If we assume that projectile profile is fixed lieu, then this is only strengthens my balance further.

How can you possibly think this is something remotely approaching balanced?

How can you possibly think this anything but balanced?
P.s thank you for actually having a discussion.


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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15104	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:02:00 - [1] - Quote This is a ridiculous suggestion. You're looked at range and DPS. That's it. Nothing else. What about any of the following factors? Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio Clip size Charge time Overheat Damage per clip Hipfire accuracy Recoil Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Damage profile How can you possibly think this is something remotely approaching balanced? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15105	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:41:00 - [2] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This is a ridiculous suggestion. You're looked at range and DPS. That's it. Nothing else. What about any of the following factors? Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel. Clip size The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS Charge time Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first Overheat This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std Damage per clip If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor Hipfire accuracy As I said earlier this and ADS accuracy need to be adjusted in a similar fashion Recoil Longer range less recoil, since paralax will even it out to the same as short range Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate. Damage profile If we assume that projectile profile is fixed lieu, then this is only strengthens my balance further. How can you possibly think this is something remotely approaching balanced? How can you possibly think this anything but balanced? P.s thank you for actually having a discussion. Rate of fire vs damage per shot ratio This physically makes no difference to the weapons operation only it's feel. It does make a difference to the weapon operation. The feel has an effect on how you work the weapon. If you have a very high rate of fire weapon you can use spray and pray attacks. If you have high damage per shot, your shots tend to be more measured. That will affect how you play, and also the effect of weapons. Clip size The Combat Rifle has the Largest clip, shortest time to empty and fastest reload, so this you simply make it so that all 3 factors added together results in a similar sustained DPS Charge time Rarely factors charge time is currently minimal and can be ignored completly if you shoot first 'Minimal'? It has an effect. Look at the DPS differences between rifles you're proposing. Check how much DPS you lose in the first second of an engagement to charge time. To call that effect minimal would be to call your proposed changes minimal. Overheat This is much the same as clip size, it's a non factor on the Assault and only serves to limit the subsequent shots to similar of the tac on the std [u]It's more restrictive. Once overheated, you can't fire, switch to a sidearm, sprint, reload, or change to equipment, and it takes longer to cool down than it does to reload. The effect is somewhat similar to clip size but it isn't the same. Damage per clip If the sustained DPS is balanced this is a non-factor [u]How do you define sustained DPS as 'balanced'? In the same way as your rifle scaling of DPS vs range? I have similar thoughts on the next couple of points which I omitted. Just as a sliding scale? Near-complete homogeneity except for that sliding scale? Hipfire accuracy Real fire rate (You don't fire a semi-automatic or burst at its full rate, ever) Yet being able to fire the Burst Combat Rifle at its full rate is exactly one of the reasons it's broken, futhermore you CAP the maximum fire rate so it easily achievable, automatically making it the real fire rate. [u]No. You can't fire a combat rifle at its full rate. For one thing your DPS calculation is flawed because there's an enforced fire delay between bursts. And you're not going to be able to hit the trigger at the precise millisecond that the delay finishes. It doesn't happen. Such a thing is so precise modded controllers struggle with it sometimes even with the exceptional trigger rate. You can fire a CR at a rapid rate, yes. But you never attain the full fire rate. As for suggesting capping the fire rate so viciously... Have you ever tried using, say, a scrambler pistol? Tap the trigger twice in rapid succession. How many times does it fire? If you do it at a reasonable rate, the answer is once. That's because you have oversampling. That'll drop the real DPS value well below your theoretical value. What kind of balance do you want to achieve with these changes? What you're suggesting is near-complete homogeneity, reducing the differences between the weapons massively. In the end, all you are suggesting is a DPS vs range and accuracy slider. Rifle balance is imperfect. This is, however, absolutely not the way to do it. How can I think it's anything but balanced? Because it's a completely stupid set of changes. I'm struggling to explain this to you because frankly the idea seems so utterly idiotic that I don't understand how you can see this as sane. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 15107	Posted - 2014.07.03 00:41:00 - [3] - Quote I'm going to sleep now, so I'll keep this one brief. 1. Shots do not buffer when oversampling enough that you can get anywhere near the maximum fire rate, regardless of what it's set at. Those ion pistol shots you fired? You tapped the trigger more times than you fired shots, or you were firing slowly. 2. The feel of the weapon most certainly does affect the weapon operation. It's not just personal 'style', it changes the way you play and the effectiveness of an option in certain situations - and thus, the weapon operation. 3. Are you suggesting shortening charge? Charge is a good mechanic. Why? 4. I'm sensing some SCR hate here. You suggest its advantages as its 'problems'. Do you believe it's overpowered? If so, why do you think it's the least used rifle? It's apparently not because of the overheat - in your own words, that's easily avoidable. Quote: That's exactly what I want hemogeny, you shouldn't be choosing a weapon simply because it has the best DPS/Range ratio, because that is what we currently have, the majority of the playerbase chooses their rifles based on which one will kick the most *** over the greatest variety of range. If the rifles are balanced then the DPS and range shouldn't need to be considered so closely. You choose your prefered ramge, then choose your preffered race from each variant set. Your choice on why you choose a specific weapon is because that weapon best suits your style. Not because it's the best weapon out of the roster. Homogeneity is the 'easy' balance solution. You can balance everything very easily by making it the same, of course. That kills variety, though. It is a bad solution. In the rifles we have at the moment, there is variety. Quite a bit of it. When you propose homogeneity in the items, though, all potential variety is lost. The only variety you're leaning towards is the DPS vs range slider and whether you tap the trigger repeatedly or hold it down. To kill off variety and make things the same would 'balance' rifles. The game would be much worse off for it, though. It's very easy to balance things when you kill variety. The easy option is certainly very attractive when going off a single spreadsheet. It does lead you to terrible conclusions and poor solutions, though. For example, you conclude that the assault combat rifle is the worst of the assault variants. Really? Can you guess which of the assault variants is the most used competitively? Or by, say, Nyain San, who certainly have a good eye for genuinely effective options? This is spreadsheet warrioring with little regard for how it'll actually work out. It shouldn't be about having people select the 'best' option. It should be about people selecting the option which fits their playstyle and they like the most. A DPS vs range slider is not sufficient for real variety. It is entirely possible to have a set of rifles which have significant differences to create a genuinely rich variety of rifles rather than a shallow slider option. Think harder about it. What are the problems with rifles right now? Why are these problems? Which ones need fixing? How would you fix it to ensure real variety? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.