EXACTLY!!!! If they are going to put AV back to 1.6 then they should have the same vehicles and module slots available.

Small Blaster ROF and dispersion were increased to make it easier to hit infantry, the intent was buff.

How did Rail and dmg mod nerf change AV-Vehicle balance?

The only change like Atiim says, PLC buff, AV grenade slight buff, two bugfixes and rep nerf. LB was never supposed to be anti-infantry.

@OP: The excessive force used against vehicles is just AV players getting vengeance for the BS they've out up with for the last 6 months. It'll die down when FotM chaser tankers die out and only GOOD tankers actually run tanks.

Good tankers still do good, scrub tankers are the ones pissing and moaning everywhere. MLT tanks no longer require a scout with 4+ RE's to kill or a forge gunner hiding on a tower, and it never should have required that.

Alright. So, at first, I thought it was going to be awesome watching all of the nerfs on vehicles b/c it would make AV so much easier. Now it is so unbelievably easy NO ONE IS USING VEHICLES. And the few that do get completely annihilated.

The fact that there are no vehicles in ambush not only blows my mind but is completely indicative of how bad players are and that CCP has to make changes so that bad players can still be bad players BUT without vehicles.

Vehicle Rep nerf = fine but unnecessary
-Good players didn't need that much reps and bad players died anyway with triple rep maddy's

I actually like the changes to RE's. nothing like doing almost 10k Effective Damage with only 3 Proto RE's

MLT Racials = unnecessary but sure why not

What is even more hilarious is that vehicles are easy to destroy even with swarms yet people aren't pulling out AV in Domination.

Anyway, those are my points.

Glad to see that scouts can shoot an entire shot out of their shotgun still and be completely invisible for that first shot.

It's crazy isn't it, most of my matches I run a forge with the intent to run tanks down. They might call out a MLT tank or two, even a STD tank every now and again. But you forge those down like they are nothing and they don't want to play anymore. Very sad:(

Or, they drive into the redline just to kill your LAV, only to be dropped by the redline, like one particular tanker the other day. Twice he did that, and once he jumped out with intent to kill me but nope, redline killed him. Must have been pretty butthurt over the 3 other tanks I killed prior to those 2

I don't know what game you guys are playing. I still see tank and DS spam in every match.

Small Blaster ROF and dispersion were increased to make it easier to hit infantry, the intent was buff.

How did Rail and dmg mod nerf change AV-Vehicle balance?

The only change like Atiim says, PLC buff, AV grenade slight buff, two bugfixes and rep nerf. LB was never supposed to be anti-infantry.

Small Blaster ROF and dispersion were increased to make it easier to hit infantry, the intent was buff.

How did Rail and dmg mod nerf change AV-Vehicle balance?

The only change like Atiim says, PLC buff, AV grenade slight buff, two bugfixes and rep nerf. LB was never supposed to be anti-infantry.

Alright. So, at first, I thought it was going to be awesome watching all of the nerfs on vehicles b/c it would make AV so much easier. Now it is so unbelievably easy NO ONE IS USING VEHICLES. And the few that do get completely annihilated.

The fact that there are no vehicles in ambush not only blows my mind but is completely indicative of how bad players are and that CCP has to make changes so that bad players can still be bad players BUT without vehicles.

Vehicle Rep nerf = fine but unnecessary
-Good players didn't need that much reps and bad players died anyway with triple rep maddy's

I actually like the changes to RE's. nothing like doing almost 10k Effective Damage with only 3 Proto RE's

MLT Racials = unnecessary but sure why not

What is even more hilarious is that vehicles are easy to destroy even with swarms yet people aren't pulling out AV in Domination.

Anyway, those are my points.

Glad to see that scouts can shoot an entire shot out of their shotgun still and be completely invisible for that first shot.

BAMM, Dev owns OP.

I will tell you why people don't use tanks like they used to, it's because they are no longer FOTM.
I still see plenty of Tankers playing and roling around, the only difference is if you have dedicated AV on the other side that AV does it's job effectively.

The large blaster, fired in small bursts in more than accurate enough to deal with the majority of infantry enemies at about 35m and the small blaster now works better than before.

Railguns are now no longer the be all and end all of vehicle-vehicle fights and missile turrets are having a resurgence.
Futhermore more tanks are actually attempting more 'unique' fits and we are seeing a larger number of Dropships (all varieties).

AV is now no lomger a lost cause (a few tweaks and we are perfect) and does it's advertised job effectively.
What more could you want?

All the changes that were made were perfectly fine the reason why there is less tanks on the fields is because a lot of the fotm tankers are gone now that they can't run their glass cannons as efficiently as before and as for av it's pretty good right now forges may be just a little too powerful but all in all okay and the only tanks that get killed by solo av are the tanks that are still trying to run glass cannon fits

Ratatts reply was to another player and not myself. I never stated anything about rail nerfs being an issue. Another example of someone who just likes attention.



A) Other players basically stated this
B) Other players also believe AV isn't fine now and have stated as such

Is there some unofficial rule where people read the OP then the DEV post and then a post on the last page and then reply? Why do people insist on only reading what they want to read?

And no, the changes were not fine. They were done too quickly without gathering data. Only a moron buys a house without looking at what is inside and just predicts what it might look at. You look at it and sometimes even put a down payment to hold it longer. They made too many changes too quickly and people aren't adapting.

To the other people. Good players are suffering as well.

That being said, it looks like triple hardened Shield Tanks are where it is at. Those things are beasts right now.

It's pretty much exactly in response to your post. You complained that tanks were underpowered (which they are not)
Rattatai outlined what few chamges were made.

Sounds like he owns you to me.

Im hardly suffering, as an AV player, I hardly suffering as a Pilot either.
The Dev's have months worth of data to look at, its not exactly like this has been a snap descision by Rattatai, they spent plenty of time in consultation with players, you can even see these threads in the archive subforum.

I'm just going to chalk this up to you being an idiot.

I never once said tanks were under powered.

Now it is so unbelievably easy NO ONE IS USING VEHICLES. And the few that do get completely annihilated.

I stated, numerous times, that the changes to vehicles were too much too quickly.

I'm just going to chalk this up to you being an idiot.

I never once said tanks were under powered. I stated, numerous times, that the changes to vehicles were too much too quickly. Someone else posted about rails and than Ratatti posted a reply.

Now it is so unbelievably easy NO ONE IS USING VEHICLES. And the few that do get completely annihilated.
Sounds like that's exactly what you said

At some point you also inferred that AV is suffering. It isn't suffering stupid. It's thriving. Why would I say anything otherwise?
To the other people. Good players are suffering as well.
You said even good players were suffering, I said I wasn't suffering in either of dedicated 'vehicle-based' roles

I'm going to stop receiving notifications for this topic to avoid becoming dumber by spending more of my time on you.

Small Blaster ROF and dispersion were increased to make it easier to hit infantry, the intent was buff.

How did Rail and dmg mod nerf change AV-Vehicle balance?

The only change like Atiim says, PLC buff, AV grenade slight buff, two bugfixes and rep nerf. LB was never supposed to be anti-infantry.

Small Blaster ROF and dispersion were increased to make it easier to hit infantry, the intent was buff.

How did Rail and dmg mod nerf change AV-Vehicle balance?

The only change like Atiim says, PLC buff, AV grenade slight buff, two bugfixes and rep nerf. LB was never supposed to be anti-infantry.

{Snips for space}
1. The blaster Nerf was warranted, as the blasters were so accurate that 5 day old scrubs were walking around in somas killing everything, all though I do not support not seeing a new skill that reduces the insane amount of dispersion for those that have put 10-20 million sp into vehicles and are forced to have the same ability to hit infantry as someone that has put 0 SP into vehicles.

2.Damage mods needed a Nerf, but not at the proto level, Damage mods at Proto needed to start at 30%, and then downgrade per tier down to 20% for Adv and 10% for basic. Starting at 20% at complex, I cannot justify it over a 40% shield hardener on a Gunloggi, or over a booster to run and outstrafe opponents. The 30% of damage mods were the only thing keeping it competitive vs Shield plates or shield hardness, just with a quicker cool down. Although a stacking penalty should be applied, allowing for the effective use of 1 Damage mod instead of double or triple for increased nerf

3. Heavy repper nerf was unjustified. The main portion of the heavy repper QQ, was because of triple rep tanks. This caused a concern for AV because much of AV is burst damage and not super high alpha damage . This allowed triple rep Madrugar's to rep through this damage. So I of course thought the natural oder of things would be to apply a stacking penalty to reppers so that people may still stack them, but by time the third complex is applied, it would only rep maybe 30-50hp/s (Compared to the 145). Instead all heavy reps have been nerfed by roughly 20%-25%, hurting shield tanks more than hurting armor tanks. Armor tankers are still stacking triple reps (With slightly less success) while shield tankers who used to rely on heavy reps to replenish health in between firefights, are now having to wait more Time in between fights to be able to get back into the action, and into what little action there is left because of what happened to Rails.

4. Rail damage was fine where it was, because now, at proto level, i can no longer 1 shot proto sentinels with a 280,000 ISK rail cannon, without a damage mod, with a well placed and accurate shot. But the ROF of a rail and the overheat nerfs at the same time are horrendous. For tankers, its like "Here use a Boundless HMG for 4 months and do good", and now all of a sudden its "Here use a burst hmg now, no boundless for you". Rail tanking is an art, and messing with the ROF has hurt that art. But allowing a tanker to fire one less shot before overheat at the same time is wrong.

This may look good on paper, but in actual game hurts the actual usage. Rail tank battles before Bravo used to be epic skill and tactic battles, where cycling mods and tearing down the enemy when theres were off was effective. Now, I literally sat on Home point by myself the other day in a PC and watched as my rail tanker and an enemy rail tanker went in circles and played 'ring around the rosy' around a water tower for 5 whole minutes before either tank died, the whole time listening to my compadre laugh maniacally about how bad rail tanks have become and how useless they are.

Small Blaster ROF and dispersion were increased to make it easier to hit infantry, the intent was buff.

How did Rail and dmg mod nerf change AV-Vehicle balance?

The only change like Atiim says, PLC buff, AV grenade slight buff, two bugfixes and rep nerf. LB was never supposed to be anti-infantry.

Alright. So, at first, I thought it was going to be awesome watching all of the nerfs on vehicles b/c it would make AV so much easier. Now it is so unbelievably easy NO ONE IS USING VEHICLES. And the few that do get completely annihilated.

The fact that there are no vehicles in ambush not only blows my mind but is completely indicative of how bad players are and that CCP has to make changes so that bad players can still be bad players BUT without vehicles.

Vehicle Rep nerf = fine but unnecessary
-Good players didn't need that much reps and bad players died anyway with triple rep maddy's

I actually like the changes to RE's. nothing like doing almost 10k Effective Damage with only 3 Proto RE's

MLT Racials = unnecessary but sure why not

What is even more hilarious is that vehicles are easy to destroy even with swarms yet people aren't pulling out AV in Domination.

Anyway, those are my points.

Glad to see that scouts can shoot an entire shot out of their shotgun still and be completely invisible for that first shot.

ill explain

1 the forge gun isnt glitchin and works

2 your patch gave av balls again that is all
from 1.7 i have said popping tanks with av was doable granted it took allot more skill than it does now..

the armor repper nerfs were not needed module stacking penalties were needed..buts its whatever tanks are still viable av is more viable..

it takes very little strafing game to avoid the average blaster...but thats mostly because the average tanker has no gungame those that know how to control they're fire still rip av to pieces.

the only issues i see is there is no strong counter vs posted av anymore

rails are much weaker vs infantry because of the 4 round overheat..and the smaller clip...but the over heat on the rail and the clip size needed a nerf though/...i think it would be less of an issue
also there is a serious lack of variety with vehicle modules
if ccp brought out the older modules for turrets and speed though

so in short

bring back over drives and chassis
bring back active and passive heat sink modules
bring back turret tracking computers for rotation enhancement

and i feel it would be more balanced.

{Snips for space}
I'm sorry to henhanced/ay this, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few things. I'll try to go in order.

1. I agree with the basis of this, but a SP sink for accuracy is not a good thing. It would be like HMG's starting off with 3x the spread and getting a tighter spread as you level up the skill (obviously doesn't translate in SP terms, but the comparison is solid due to the recticule). In this state, a basic tier HMG user might kill a heavy but the spread would be too great to kill anything with a smaller hitbox unless you are right on top of them, whereas a proto tier heavy can have the current spread and kill all suits. Basically you're saying new players get to fight other tanks, but PRO tankers get to kill infantry too. I won't quote Ratatti again about his stance on large turrets (it's all over the place now), but large blasters are NOT meant to go slaughtering infantry with.

2. Agreed.

3. Anything less than a 50% stacking penalty wouldn't have reduced the effectiveness enough to allow swarms and PLC's to beat the rep rate, but I do agree that a stacking penalty was a better way to go.

4. There should have been a large RoF drop, but the damage per shot should have stayed the same. The RoF basically let you 2 shot fully fitted and skilled dropships and ADS's out of the sky before they even had time to pull up the wheel, which is wrong.

To everything else, I cannot speak as I am not a tanker. This is what I observe as an AV player and dropship pilot who wants a challenge killing a tank but not to feel completely useless when they roll in, and also as a player who has been posting in these forums regularly and playing Dust for 2 years now.

Oh, one last thing. LAV's hunting tanks is a GOOD thing. They have turrets that are a threat to you now, so they are a distraction tactic for infantry to use against you. And it's also likely to cut down on jihad jeeps since people will likely get a lot more satisfaction feeling as though they are fighting a tank head to head in this way. Tanks can easily kill LAV's still (or run away or run over their car), and a tanker who sticks around long enough to get dropped by a LAV probably deserved to loose his tank. Who knows, maybe instead of proto hreavies popping out of their tanks with HMG's to kill infantry, we'll see swarms or forges hopping out to deal with LAV's lol

And those laughs are not laughs at tankers, but laughs of joy about finally being able to kill tanks again. It's just a lot of chest thumping since we swarmers have been out done by C4 and forge guns for over 6 months now. All of the crowing should die down before long, just ride it out. The same thing happened with tankers in 1.7.