The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks.

While I like the thoughts, I'm still of the mind that Logi's, being the more specialized variant of the Medium Suits, should have one less total slot than Assaults. The Assault numbers looked good, for the most part, but the Logi's ended up having more slots at Proto than the Assaults in many cases. 12 Total Slots, which is a good number from what I've looked at, on Assaults, allows for some Slot versatility.

On Assaults, you take 1 for a LW, 1 for a SA, 1 for a Grenade, and 1 for an EQ, that leaves you 8 Module slots, giving you 5/3, 4/4, 3/5 splits as you put in your spreadsheet.

If you then follow with Logi's having 1 less Total Slot (using the precedent set by the Commando having 1 less slot than Sentinels), the Gallente have 6 Module slots, the Minmatar have 6, the Caldari have 7 and the Amarr have 6. Those number allow great versatility, with 5/1, 2/4, 3/3, 2/4, 1/5 being a decent number of Proto layouts for Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr, while the Caldari have a decent number, though 5/2 or 4/3 would be best for them.

I like suits to look different from each other when constructing them, too much symmetry right now with Slot Configurations.

The bigger problem I can see about giving Assaults only 12 Slots; Scouts are sitting at 11 at Proto. Might not make people happy. But, at 13 on the Assaults, you only have 5/4 and 4/5 splits for Modules, which is boring.

My 2 cents, but, +1.

Note, all proposed slots are for Proto suits, as its easier to discuss them.

All medium frame suits need an increase of EHP. Click link below for the explanation.

Brokerib, your idea would definitely increase the use of assault suits. But 6 slots at standard may be a tad too strong. I also feel that the most diverse(most fitting slots) class of suits should be the basic suits to give players a reason to use basic suits over their more specialized counter parts.

Thanks Appia!

That is what you call balance to the game

I still believe assaults should have super fast regeneration.

This allows them to respond to threats faster than any other unit after a battle, since they don't have to wait to regenerate or get logistics support, they can charge straight in, knowing that by the time they're in battle they will have full HP.

This would drive logis to extinction.

change one suit at a time. buff the assault and see how the logi fairs against it. dont buff and nerf.

This would drive logis to extinction.

TLDR [i]

Current Assault:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_2/2_3/2_4/3
Gal_1/3_2/3_3/4
Min_3/1_3/2_5/2
Am_2/1_2/2_3/3

Proposed Assault:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_4/2_5/2_5/3
Gal_2/4_2/5_3/5
Min_3/3_4/3_4/4
Am_3/3_3/4_3/5

Current Logi:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4
Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5
Min_2/2_3/3_4/4
Am_2/2_3/3_3/4

Proposed Logi:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3
Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4
Min_3/2_3/3_4/3
Am_2/3_3/3_3/4

How so? Honestly, I'm ignorant when it comes to what makes a good Logi.
The lower-end Logis appear to have bad slot configs; no harm in normalizing those.
But why do high-end Logis need sufficient slots to out-Assault an Assault?

How so? Honestly, I'm ignorant when it comes to what makes a good Logi.
The lower-end Logis appear to have bad slot configs; no harm in normalizing those.
But why do high-end Logis need sufficient slots to out-Assault an Assault?


Agreed.
How can we buff Assaults such that they not be out-Assaulted by Logis (and others)?
Could it be something simple, like +1 Slot and Better Regen?

Agreed. However LogiFrame =/= Support Logi Fitting.

Avoiding the return of the killer bee swarm is important but there needs to be a rework on Logi suits and fits not just a nerf.
Support Logi (and I cringe that I have to make that distinction in the first place) are already barely viable even as it stands a further nerf will likely see that last bit of viability evaporate.

Further 1:1 meta level suit comparison cannot tell the whole story, ISK, and more importantly SP cost to run a suit must be accounted for as well. A logi suit which has spec'ed into and fielded a full suite of equipment plus mods in all slots has put more into their fitting SP/ISK wise, thus is at a higher "risk" level than a 'killer bee' who's focused only on DPS/HP (or an assault who's focused the same way). True balance requires a viable Assault suit without nerfing the logi to the point that it's non-viable and without dismissing the fundamental risk vs reward dynamic which should be maintained/established game wide (to wit; if your SP and ISK investment to field a fit is higher, your potential earnings and tactical effectiveness should scale up accordingly).

0.02 ISK
Cross

@ Thread: To truly fix the Assault, we need to give it more role definition than "I'm faster than a Heavy, more tanky than a scout, and I can kill any logi 9/10 times". If that method is employed the assault role will always either be UP or OP because of it's flexibility. We need to add incomparables to the Assault role to make it shine, not just fiddle with the numbers.


0.02 ISK
Cross

This would drive logis to extinction.

Agreed. However LogiFrame =/= Support Logi Fitting.

Avoiding the return of the killer bee swarm is important but there needs to be a rework on Logi suits and fits not just a nerf.
Support Logi (and I cringe that I have to make that distinction in the first place) are already barely viable even as it stands a further nerf will likely see that last bit of viability evaporate.

Further 1:1 meta level suit comparison cannot tell the whole story, ISK, and more importantly SP cost to run a suit must be accounted for as well. A logi suit which has spec'ed into and fielded a full suite of equipment plus mods in all slots has put more into their fitting SP/ISK wise, thus is at a higher "risk" level than a 'killer bee' who's focused only on DPS/HP (or an assault who's focused the same way). True balance requires a viable Assault suit without nerfing the logi to the point that it's non-viable and without dismissing the fundamental risk vs reward dynamic which should be maintained/established game wide (to wit; if your SP and ISK investment to field a fit is higher, your potential earnings and tactical effectiveness should scale up accordingly).

0.02 ISK
Cross

Not really.

Amarr Logi is still needed for links

Don't rep without a Min Logi

LOL at Nanohives when they aren't either spammed or dropped by Cal

Gal Logi still is king of scans

Also: Assaults only have equip slot.

Logi's will still have a role. Just not as a slayer.

Thought free-flow:

The only thing I can think of that would negate the logi-slayer without nerfing the logi's survivability would be to give the logi suits a damage resistance bonus as well as a damage output nerf at the same time.... and even if that was something the community was up for, implementing it could be tricky. You would have to give a % nerf per tier to weapon damage which would only get more cumbersome the further up you went in the skill.... Unless you made the damage reduction a part of the suits themselves. Would that even be possible? Like a 5% damage reduction built into logi suits? I dunno, anyway....

This has been another episode of "Baal Omniscient's been up all night and has been letting his mind wander". Join us next time for rambling thoughts on HMG ranges, swarm launcher lock-on bugs and how bad low-tier nanohives are.

This is probably my scout bias showing here (most of my fits are sub 300 EHP), but how much health does a Logi need to be viable in combat? Because what we're talking about with the modules is really health.

Using the module layout I've suggested, along with the current modules and base values, you end up with the following (using the Min and Amarr as examples of the lowest and highest possible, and assuming proto skills on all):

Min Logi
4 x complex shield extenders
3 x complex plate
= 951

Ama Logi
3 x complex shield extenders
4 x complex plate
= 1075

Now compare with the Assaults:

Min Ass
4 x complex shield extender
4 x complex plate
= 1128

Ama
3 x complex shield extenders
5 x complex plate
= 1271

Less than 200EHP difference between the racial Assault and Logi. And that's assuming everyone is brick tanking. At that level of EHP, I would have thought a Logi would be quite survivable in combat?

Now how about if the Assaults aren't brick tanking, and decide to fit something additional (one high/one low)? The Assault fit looks like:

Min Ass
3 x complex shield extenders
3 x complex plate
= 935

Ama Ass
2 x complex shield extenders
4 x complex plate
= 1078

Which is pretty much bang on with a fully bricked Logi. An Assault gets to fit one high and one low slot, and still run the same EHP as a logi of the same archtype, while the Logi gets to run 3 more equipment and one less weapon (Min) or two more equipment (Amarr). Does that seem unreasonable from a balance perspective, within the scope of the current modules and base stats?

I understand I'm not accounting for the rest of the base stats (speed/regen/precision/etc), but from a straight fitting perspective it makes sense to me.

TLDR Assaults are still underperforming. Even if the Alpha Scout changes work as intended, the Logi-slayer will re-emerge as the Assult of choice. Assaults need a buff.

The reason the Gal scout has been abused, in addition to the issues with de-cloaking and armor plate, is that Assault are under performing. So players looking for a slayer fit migrated from the Logi slayer to the Scout after 1.8 to be more effective slayers, because the Assault has been unable to compete with either.

The Logi-Slayer is still alive and well, and will be back once the Scout Alpha fixes are in, assuming they work as intended. The Assault will still be a worse option than the Logi unless some changes are made in the medium balance, to make the Assault viable in it's role.

Medium/Light/Heavy balance:
The following suggestion is based on the concept that the core strength of the Medium class should be versatility.

Lights are fast and evasive, but have low EHP and limited PG/CPU. Heavies are tough and dangerous, but slow have limited slots and equipment. Mediums should be versatile and able to cover a number of roles as dictated by the battle. Not as well as suits specialised for that purpose, but at least well enough to make them viable in those roles, in addition to being able to shine in either support (Logi) or attack (Assault).

Assault/Logi balance:
Further to the balance between suit classes, is the balance within the Medium class itself. To fill their roles as the most versatile frames, each of the Assault and Logi need to bring something different to the table. Logi's should allow for the greatest versatility of equipment modules, while Assault should have the greatest versatility in dropsuit modules. This should allow both of them to shine in their areas of expertise, while still being versatile enough to fill multiple other roles, as needed.

As it currently stands, Logi's beat out the Assault as they are the most versatile in both, being able to fit the more equipment, as well as the greatest number of modules, while having more PG and CPU.

To fix this, I'd propose the following three changes:

1. Slot layout change:

Current Assault:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_2/2_3/2_4/3
Gal_1/3_2/3_3/4
Min_3/1_3/2_5/2
Am_2/1_2/2_3/3

Proposed Assault:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_4/2_5/2_5/3
Gal_2/4_2/5_3/5
Min_3/3_4/3_4/4
Am_3/3_3/4_3/5

Current Logi:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4
Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5
Min_2/2_3/3_4/4
Am_2/2_3/3_3/4

Proposed Logi:
___ Std_Ad_Pro
Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3
Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4
Min_3/2_3/3_4/3
Am_2/3_3/3_3/4

With Assaults having 6 modules slots at standard, 7 at advanced and 8 at proto.
Logi's move to 5 at standard, 6 at advanced, and 7 at proto. Logi's maintain a significant advantage through the number of equipment slots, but will no longer be able to out tank or out fit Assaults when it comes to modules, making Assault viable as Assaults.

I understand this is a nerf to Logi's and I apologise to Logi players, but at the moment each racial variant outshines it's Assault counterpart at proto by at least 1 module slot, in addition to at least two equipment slots. The module slot allows the Logi to compensate for the greater base EHP of the Assault, and the equipment allows them to bring more to the table. There is no way for the Assault to compete.

2. PG/CPU normalisation

With the removal of slots from the Logi and addition of slots to the Assault, PG and CPU will need to be reconsidered and normalised for both. CCP Rattati has already mentioned that PG/CPU will need to be reworked to force players to make choices on their fit.

3. Equipment slot changes

If the Cal Logi loses the additional module slots to balance against the others, then they will need to be upped to 4 equipment slots. Alternately, to maintain diversity, increase the Cal logi module count to 5/3 at proto and maintain the three equipment slots.
Leave the Amarr at 3 equipment slots and maintain their sidearm. It's a good point of differentiation and makes for an intersting suit.

4. Bonus change - Grenade slot

As an option, and to provide a real point of differentiation for the Assault, give them a secondary grenade slot.

With the changes to grenade numbers and (upcoming) change to damage, granade spam should no longer be a major issue. The ability to carry two different types of grenade simultaniously makes the Assault much more versatile on the battlefield, and able to resopnd to different threats effectively on the fly (shield tanks, armor tanks, and/or AV).

To ensure that it doesn't reintroduce grenade spam, the implementation should be made so that changing between grenades requires the use of the equipment wheel, and that throwing all of your currently equiped grenades does not result in a change to the other set. That way the player will need to manual change between sets to use them.

Thanks for your time, comments and suggestions welcome.

o7

This is probably my scout bias showing here (most of my fits are sub 300 EHP), but how much health does a Logi need to be viable in combat? Because what we're talking about with the modules is really health.

Using the module layout I've suggested, along with the current modules and base values, you end up with the following (using the Min and Amarr as examples of the lowest and highest possible, and assuming proto skills on all):

Min Logi
4 x complex shield extenders
3 x complex plate
= 951

Ama Logi
3 x complex shield extenders
4 x complex plate
= 1075

Now compare with the Assaults:

Min Ass
4 x complex shield extender
4 x complex plate
= 1128

Ama
3 x complex shield extenders
5 x complex plate
= 1271

Less than 200EHP difference between the racial Assault and Logi. And that's assuming everyone is brick tanking. At that level of EHP, I would have thought a Logi would be quite survivable in combat?

Now how about if the Assaults aren't brick tanking, and decide to fit something additional (one high/one low)? The Assault fit looks like:

Min Ass
3 x complex shield extenders
3 x complex plate
= 935

Ama Ass
2 x complex shield extenders
4 x complex plate
= 1078

Which is pretty much bang on with a fully bricked Logi. An Assault gets to fit one high and one low slot, and still run the same EHP as a logi of the same archtype, while the Logi gets to run 3 more equipment and one less weapon (Min) or two more equipment (Amarr). Does that seem unreasonable from a balance perspective, within the scope of the current modules and base stats?

I understand I'm not accounting for the rest of the base stats (speed/regen/precision/etc), but from a straight fitting perspective it makes sense to me.