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[suggestion] Assault suit changes/medium balance

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Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1205	Posted - 2014.05.25 04:28:00 - [1] - Quote TLDR Assaults are still underperforming. Even if the Alpha Scout changes work as intended, the Logi-slayer will re-emerge as the Assult of choice. Assaults need a buff. The reason the Gal scout has been abused, in addition to the issues with de-cloaking and armor plate, is that Assault are under performing. So players looking for a slayer fit migrated from the Logi slayer to the Scout after 1.8 to be more effective slayers, because the Assault has been unable to compete with either. The Logi-Slayer is still alive and well, and will be back once the Scout Alpha fixes are in, assuming they work as intended. The Assault will still be a worse option than the Logi unless some changes are made in the medium balance, to make the Assault viable in it's role. Medium/Light/Heavy balance: The following suggestion is based on the concept that the core strength of the Medium class should be versatility. Lights are fast and evasive, but have low EHP and limited PG/CPU. Heavies are tough and dangerous, but slow have limited slots and equipment. Mediums should be versatile and able to cover a number of roles as dictated by the battle. Not as well as suits specialised for that purpose, but at least well enough to make them viable in those roles, in addition to being able to shine in either support (Logi) or attack (Assault). Assault/Logi balance: Further to the balance between suit classes, is the balance within the Medium class itself. To fill their roles as the most versatile frames, each of the Assault and Logi need to bring something different to the table. Logi's should allow for the greatest versatility of equipment modules, while Assault should have the greatest versatility in dropsuit modules. This should allow both of them to shine in their areas of expertise, while still being versatile enough to fill multiple other roles, as needed. As it currently stands, Logi's beat out the Assault as they are the most versatile in both, being able to fit the more equipment, as well as the greatest number of modules, while having more PG and CPU. To fix this, I'd propose the following three changes: 1. Slot layout change: Current Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/2_3/2_4/3 Gal_1/3_2/3_3/4 Min_3/1_3/2_5/2 Am_2/1_2/2_3/3 Proposed Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_4/2_5/2_5/3 Gal_2/4_2/5_3/5 Min_3/3_4/3_4/4 Am_3/3_3/4_3/5 Current Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4 Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5 Min_2/2_3/3_4/4 Am_2/2_3/3_3/4 Proposed Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3 Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4 Min_3/2_3/3_4/3 Am_2/3_3/3_3/4 With Assaults having 6 modules slots at standard, 7 at advanced and 8 at proto. Logi's move to 5 at standard, 6 at advanced, and 7 at proto. Logi's maintain a significant advantage through the number of equipment slots, but will no longer be able to out tank or out fit Assaults when it comes to modules, making Assault viable as Assaults. I understand this is a nerf to Logi's and I apologise to Logi players, but at the moment each racial variant outshines it's Assault counterpart at proto by at least 1 module slot, in addition to at least two equipment slots. The module slot allows the Logi to compensate for the greater base EHP of the Assault, and the equipment allows them to bring more to the table. There is no way for the Assault to compete. 2. PG/CPU normalisation With the removal of slots from the Logi and addition of slots to the Assault, PG and CPU will need to be reconsidered and normalised for both. CCP Rattati has already mentioned that PG/CPU will need to be reworked to force players to make choices on their fit. 3. Equipment slot changes If the Cal Logi loses the additional module slots to balance against the others, then they will need to be upped to 4 equipment slots. Alternately, to maintain diversity, increase the Cal logi module count to 5/3 at proto and maintain the three equipment slots. Leave the Amarr at 3 equipment slots and maintain their sidearm. It's a good point of differentiation and makes for an intersting suit. 4. Bonus change - Grenade slot As an option, and to provide a real point of differentiation for the Assault, give them a secondard grenade slot. With the changes to grenade numbers and (upcoming) change to damage, granade spam should no longer be a major issue. The ability to carry two different types of grenade simultaniously makes the Assault much more versatile on the battlefield, and able to resopnd to different threats effectively on the fly (shield tanks, armor tanks, and/or AV). To ensure that it doesn't reintroduce grenade spam, the implementation should be made so that changing between grenades requires the use of the equipment wheel, and that throwing all of your currently equiped grenades does not result in a change to the other set. That way the player will need to manual change between sets to use them. Thanks for your time, comments and suggestions welcome. o7 Knowledge is power
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 4885	Posted - 2014.05.25 05:10:00 - [2] - Quote I like the Assaults being king of dropsuit slots. It makes more sense to me, as Versatility should be their calling card. Also. 4/4 Min Assault ? YES PLEASE. I can finally dual tank that suit decently! I like the grenade idea. This means an assault can soften an objective with flux, and then toss a locus in. Great way to clear a room. Or they can run some extra AV for their squad? I like these changes. Seems good to me. Though I am only a scout. We need some assault players to look at this. Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 275	Posted - 2014.05.25 18:57:00 - [3] - Quote +1 My idea of what assaults should be is the class that is never the best choice for any one job, but the 2nd best choice for every job. Jack of all trades, master of none. Increasing modules means they can fit a stronger tank + damage mods (to stand against sentinels/commandos) OR E-war equipment to deal with scouts. Scouts themselves could still be a "2nd best" choice as equipment carriers, but I don't see that as a huge threat. I am wary however of a 2nd grenade slot. Honestly, I think there are programming and maybe even art asset barriers that would prevent it from ever happening in Dust, though perhaps the suggestion could carry on to Legion. My personal opinion on grenade spam was that removing one from the pocket was unwarrented; it doesn't change anything when you are standing on top of a nanohive or next to a supply depot. Grenade spam was a resupply issue, not "how many can I carry." Perhaps Assaults could just get a flat bonus to carry +1 grenade of whatever type is equipped?
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2818	Posted - 2014.06.05 03:51:00 - [4] - Quote Sorry I hadn't seen this when you posted it. I love this. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2124	Posted - 2014.06.05 10:12:00 - [5] - Quote The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Appia Nappia 862	Posted - 2014.06.05 10:51:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PHGBWRvIUvn4HOsFcFzLr-Jckt5hMC_8kGpb7RQzOeI/edit?usp=sharing Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2142	Posted - 2014.06.05 11:59:00 - [7] - Quote Much appreciated, what a difference it makes to read and use like this "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1301	Posted - 2014.06.05 12:34:00 - [8] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PHGBWRvIUvn4HOsFcFzLr-Jckt5hMC_8kGpb7RQzOeI/edit?usp=sharing Thanks Appia! Knowledge is power
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1263	Posted - 2014.06.05 12:34:00 - [9] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PHGBWRvIUvn4HOsFcFzLr-Jckt5hMC_8kGpb7RQzOeI/edit?usp=sharing While I like the thoughts, I'm still of the mind that Logi's, being the more specialized variant of the Medium Suits, should have one less total slot than Assaults. The Assault numbers looked good, for the most part, but the Logi's ended up having more slots at Proto than the Assaults in many cases. 12 Total Slots, which is a good number from what I've looked at, on Assaults, allows for some Slot versatility. On Assaults, you take 1 for a LW, 1 for a SA, 1 for a Grenade, and 1 for an EQ, that leaves you 8 Module slots, giving you 5/3, 4/4, 3/5 splits as you put in your spreadsheet. If you then follow with Logi's having 1 less Total Slot (using the precedent set by the Commando having 1 less slot than Sentinels), the Gallente have 6 Module slots, the Minmatar have 6, the Caldari have 7 and the Amarr have 6. Those number allow great versatility, with 5/1, 2/4, 3/3, 2/4, 1/5 being a decent number of Proto layouts for Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr, while the Caldari have a decent number, though 5/2 or 4/3 would be best for them. I like suits to look different from each other when constructing them, too much symmetry right now with Slot Configurations. The bigger problem I can see about giving Assaults only 12 Slots; Scouts are sitting at 11 at Proto. Might not make people happy. But, at 13 on the Assaults, you only have 5/4 and 4/5 splits for Modules, which is boring. My 2 cents, but, +1. Note, all proposed slots are for Proto suits, as its easier to discuss them. I think I'm over Dust now...
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 802	Posted - 2014.06.05 12:38:00 - [10] - Quote All medium frame suits need an increase of EHP. Click link below for the explanation. Brokerib, your idea would definitely increase the use of assault suits. But 6 slots at standard may be a tad too strong. I also feel that the most diverse(most fitting slots) class of suits should be the basic suits to give players a reason to use basic suits over their more specialized counter parts. Medium frame EHP is not medium

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1301	Posted - 2014.06.05 12:43:00 - [11] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: Appia Nappia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PHGBWRvIUvn4HOsFcFzLr-Jckt5hMC_8kGpb7RQzOeI/edit?usp=sharing While I like the thoughts, I'm still of the mind that Logi's, being the more specialized variant of the Medium Suits, should have one less total slot than Assaults. The Assault numbers looked good, for the most part, but the Logi's ended up having more slots at Proto than the Assaults in many cases. 12 Total Slots, which is a good number from what I've looked at, on Assaults, allows for some Slot versatility. On Assaults, you take 1 for a LW, 1 for a SA, 1 for a Grenade, and 1 for an EQ, that leaves you 8 Module slots, giving you 5/3, 4/4, 3/5 splits as you put in your spreadsheet. If you then follow with Logi's having 1 less Total Slot (using the precedent set by the Commando having 1 less slot than Sentinels), the Gallente have 6 Module slots, the Minmatar have 6, the Caldari have 7 and the Amarr have 6. Those number allow great versatility, with 5/1, 2/4, 3/3, 2/4, 1/5 being a decent number of Proto layouts for Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr, while the Caldari have a decent number, though 5/2 or 4/3 would be best for them. I like suits to look different from each other when constructing them, too much symmetry right now with Slot Configurations. The bigger problem I can see about giving Assaults only 12 Slots; Scouts are sitting at 11 at Proto. Might not make people happy. But, at 13 on the Assaults, you only have 5/4 and 4/5 splits for Modules, which is boring. My 2 cents, but, +1. Note, all proposed slots are for Proto suits, as its easier to discuss them. Very reasonable suggestions, I had it structed so that it was 5 equipment slots for Sentinels, 6 for Scouts, 7 for Logi's, and 8 for Assaults, as module slots drive versatility, but looking at the overall slot count is good to The only thing I would add is a caution about only looking at slot count. As HP/Stam/Speed/Regen/EWAR/bonuses/etc are also different between the suits, they need to be considered as part of the whole as well. Knowledge is power
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1301	Posted - 2014.06.05 12:49:00 - [12] - Quote medomai grey wrote: All medium frame suits need an increase of EHP. Click link below for the explanation. Brokerib, your idea would definitely increase the use of assault suits. But 6 slots at standard may be a tad too strong. I also feel that the most diverse(most fitting slots) class of suits should be the basic suits to give players a reason to use basic suits over their more specialized counter parts. Definately agree with the HP issue, but should be somewhat mitigated by the additional slots. Any increase would need to be balanced to ensure Assaults don't step too far into the realm of the heavy. Knowledge is power
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 23	Posted - 2014.06.05 13:16:00 - [13] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Appia Nappia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PHGBWRvIUvn4HOsFcFzLr-Jckt5hMC_8kGpb7RQzOeI/edit?usp=sharing Thanks Appia! That is what you call balance to the game "I don't even know anymore"
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 23	Posted - 2014.06.05 13:17:00 - [14] - Quote BlazeXYZ wrote: Brokerib wrote: Appia Nappia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The only way I can study this is with a neat spreadsheet, I just told Kagehoshi the same thing. I am interested but this text format is just not user friendly to me. I appreciate the effort, and thanks. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PHGBWRvIUvn4HOsFcFzLr-Jckt5hMC_8kGpb7RQzOeI/edit?usp=sharing Thanks Appia! That is what you call balance to the game "I don't even know anymore"
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 238	Posted - 2014.06.05 14:10:00 - [15] - Quote About time that the Galente logi got some love, I've been pointing out the fact that it was 0/2 on slots for a few patches now but no one cared since other logis were available or just bump up to advanced/proto as fast as possible. Thank you very much for this change it is much appreciated. But I think you messed up slightly on the progression the Cal suit, unless it's going to be getting a really nice pg/cpu jump at the last since the slot layout is 4/3, 4/3 is what you are proposing I think it should be 4/2 then 4/3.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1437	Posted - 2014.06.05 16:18:00 - [16] - Quote Good stuff, Broker. o7 The grenade change is probably a no-go as it'd require a client-side update. Do you think it'd be too much to swap it out for Cat Merc's idea? Cat Merc wrote: I still believe assaults should have super fast regeneration. This allows them to respond to threats faster than any other unit after a battle, since they don't have to wait to regenerate or get logistics support, they can charge straight in, knowing that by the time they're in battle they will have full HP. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1307	Posted - 2014.06.05 16:46:00 - [17] - Quote This would drive logis to extinction.
Ku Shala The Generals General Tso's Alliance 941	Posted - 2014.06.05 16:47:00 - [18] - Quote change one suit at a time. buff the assault and see how the logi fairs against it. dont buff and nerf. *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä* Closed Beta ¦¦V¦¦e¦¦t ¦¦ H8R Caldari Loyalist
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1440	Posted - 2014.06.05 16:52:00 - [19] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: This would drive logis to extinction. How so? Honestly, I'm ignorant when it comes to what makes a good Logi. The lower-end Logis appear to have bad slot configs; no harm in normalizing those. But why do high-end Logis need sufficient slots to out-Assault an Assault? Ku Shala wrote: change one suit at a time. buff the assault and see how the logi fairs against it. dont buff and nerf. Agreed. How can we buff Assaults such that they not be out-Assaulted by Logis (and others)? Could it be something simple, like +1 Slot and Better Regen? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 25	Posted - 2014.06.05 17:16:00 - [20] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: This would drive logis to extinction. indeed. i would rather be a commando then a gimped logi or a "normal" assault which brings nothign to the table except kills.. Logi are low hp so we need the highs and lows to rectify that.. and the 3 equip slots are a nessesary. idk how cal and amarr logi stand it. and we need our granades since we dont have sidearms. so NO i do not support a logi nerf.. but i do however support an assault buff. Nanite Injectors! Nanite Injectors Everywhere! Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone?

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 25	Posted - 2014.06.05 17:43:00 - [21] - Quote Brokerib wrote: TLDR [i] Current Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/2_3/2_4/3 Gal_1/3_2/3_3/4 Min_3/1_3/2_5/2 Am_2/1_2/2_3/3 Proposed Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_4/2_5/2_5/3 Gal_2/4_2/5_3/5 Min_3/3_4/3_4/4 Am_3/3_3/4_3/5 Current Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4 Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5 Min_2/2_3/3_4/4 Am_2/2_3/3_3/4 Proposed Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3 Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4 Min_3/2_3/3_4/3 Am_2/3_3/3_3/4 Current Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/2_3/2_4/3 Gal_1/3_2/3_3/4 Min_3/1_3/2_5/2 Am_2/1_2/2_3/3 Proposed Assault: 2 equipment slots. ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_4/2_5/2_5/3 3/2_4/3_5/4 Gal_2/4_2/5_3/5 2/3_3/4_4/5 Min_3/3_4/3_4/4 3/2_4/3_5/4 Am_3/3_3/4_3/5 2/3_3/4_4/5 Current Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4 Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5 Min_2/2_3/3_4/4 Am_2/2_3/3_3/4 Proposed Logi: 3 equip slots for all logi. ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3 3/2_4/3_5/3 Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4 2/3_3/4_3/5 Min_3/2_3/3_4/3 3/2_4/3_4/4 Am_2/3_3/3_3/4 2/3_3/4_4/5 also i believe assault should have 2 equipment slots, they already have good assault suit modifiers as well as racial suit modifiers. amarr and caldari logi should have 3 equipment slots like gallente and minmatar and the changes to high and low slots allows us to actually get some HP while saveing slots for damage modifiers or Ewar or cardiac regulators cause logi are SLOW at moving cause of the stacked plates for HP. Nanite Injectors! Nanite Injectors Everywhere! Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone?
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3022	Posted - 2014.06.05 18:20:00 - [22] - Quote I assume these proposed changes come with a base hp equalizer between all medium suits? If assaults get more base hp and more slots, this may very well drive logis to extinction... If logi is gonna have less module slots, it might be worth considering giving them all sidearms similar to Amarr Logi. Assault can have +1 module slots and higher base speed along with weapon bonuses and call it good there. Otherwise you're better off playing a scout than a logi...
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1309	Posted - 2014.06.05 18:30:00 - [23] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: This would drive logis to extinction. How so? Honestly, I'm ignorant when it comes to what makes a good Logi. The lower-end Logis appear to have bad slot configs; no harm in normalizing those. But why do high-end Logis need sufficient slots to out-Assault an Assault? Compared to assaults logis are slower, with less HP, worse regen, no sidearm (except Amarr), etc. Give them fewer high/low slots than assaults as well and they will not be able to survive long enough to do any actual logi-ing.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 26	Posted - 2014.06.05 18:57:00 - [24] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: This would drive logis to extinction. How so? Honestly, I'm ignorant when it comes to what makes a good Logi. The lower-end Logis appear to have bad slot configs; no harm in normalizing those. But why do high-end Logis need sufficient slots to out-Assault an Assault? Ku Shala wrote: change one suit at a time. buff the assault and see how the logi fairs against it. dont buff and nerf. Agreed. How can we buff Assaults such that they not be out-Assaulted by Logis (and others)? Could it be something simple, like +1 Slot and Better Regen? perhaps increase shield regen and lowered time for the regen to kick in.. and Innate Armor rep amount.. mil 2hp/s std 4hp/s adv 6hp/s proto 8hp/s leaving x slots free for other things like cardiac or PG/cpu upgrades.. or armor tank and use highs for Ewar. if assault suits get this then Sentinel suits will need their innate HP/s armor rep buffed slightly too. Nanite Injectors! Nanite Injectors Everywhere! Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone?
Ku Shala The Generals General Tso's Alliance 942	Posted - 2014.06.05 19:12:00 - [25] - Quote again if assaults need to be buffed, buff assaults. why are you trying to nerf logis to buff assaults and buff them at the same time? change one thing and see its effect . after that is changed and something still needs adjusting make the next change. mass changes is what makes these inbalances.hotfix alpha is a good example of how the balancing should take place. so do 1 change high/low slots on assaults add an equipment slot to assaults change the regen on assaults do none of the above and nerf an already crippled suit *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä* Closed Beta ¦¦V¦¦e¦¦t ¦¦ H8R Caldari Loyalist
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 528	Posted - 2014.06.05 20:15:00 - [26] - Quote Why would the Min Logi get changed at all? It's the one suit that has been the most balanced since day one. The only change it has ever received is the HP nerf from Uprising, which wasn't even necessary. Logi suits in general are in a pretty good spot right now, although it's even tougher to do our job AND survive with all the heavies and cloaked scouts running around. It's the assaults that need some work done to make them viable. Nerfing Logis and buffing everything else makes zero sense to me.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2249	Posted - 2014.06.05 23:05:00 - [27] - Quote Brokerib wrote: TLDR Assaults are still underperforming. Even if the Alpha Scout changes work as intended, the Logi-slayer will re-emerge as the Assult of choice. Assaults need a buff. Agreed. However LogiFrame =/= Support Logi Fitting. Avoiding the return of the killer bee swarm is important but there needs to be a rework on Logi suits and fits not just a nerf. Support Logi (and I cringe that I have to make that distinction in the first place) are already barely viable even as it stands a further nerf will likely see that last bit of viability evaporate. Further 1:1 meta level suit comparison cannot tell the whole story, ISK, and more importantly SP cost to run a suit must be accounted for as well. A logi suit which has spec'ed into and fielded a full suite of equipment plus mods in all slots has put more into their fitting SP/ISK wise, thus is at a higher "risk" level than a 'killer bee' who's focused only on DPS/HP (or an assault who's focused the same way). True balance requires a viable Assault suit without nerfing the logi to the point that it's non-viable and without dismissing the fundamental risk vs reward dynamic which should be maintained/established game wide (to wit; if your SP and ISK investment to field a fit is higher, your potential earnings and tactical effectiveness should scale up accordingly). 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1094	Posted - 2014.06.05 23:34:00 - [28] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Brokerib wrote: TLDR Assaults are still underperforming. Even if the Alpha Scout changes work as intended, the Logi-slayer will re-emerge as the Assult of choice. Assaults need a buff. Agreed. However LogiFrame =/= Support Logi Fitting. Avoiding the return of the killer bee swarm is important but there needs to be a rework on Logi suits and fits not just a nerf. Support Logi (and I cringe that I have to make that distinction in the first place) are already barely viable even as it stands a further nerf will likely see that last bit of viability evaporate. Further 1:1 meta level suit comparison cannot tell the whole story, ISK, and more importantly SP cost to run a suit must be accounted for as well. A logi suit which has spec'ed into and fielded a full suite of equipment plus mods in all slots has put more into their fitting SP/ISK wise, thus is at a higher "risk" level than a 'killer bee' who's focused only on DPS/HP (or an assault who's focused the same way). True balance requires a viable Assault suit without nerfing the logi to the point that it's non-viable and without dismissing the fundamental risk vs reward dynamic which should be maintained/established game wide (to wit; if your SP and ISK investment to field a fit is higher, your potential earnings and tactical effectiveness should scale up accordingly). 0.02 ISK Cross Spot on as usual, Cross. I rarely believe that nerfing something actually equals a "buff" to something else. You also bring up a pretty interesting discussion on ISK / SP investment by relative suit. Couple quick thoughts... 1) I like the double grenade option. That actually introduces tactical flexibility similar to how the commando suit approaches things with 2x light weapons. 2) Perhaps rebalancing module slots would also work. It never made since that the Logi suit has better highs and lows than the assault...it has little if anything to do with effectively running and employing critical combat equipment. At a minimum I think equalizing the slots would work. 3) I think if you required an equipment slot in the logi suits in a similar fashion (the ubiquitous "red box") that you do with weapon slots that would help quite a bit. That's where the logi equipment bonus for CPU / PG resource cost reduction can really come into play. 4) Perhaps lower the the CPU / PG resource cost of grenades for Assaults as well. 5) I'm not sure that the racial bonuses for the suits are there. This is a huge topic and I would refer you to some of the pre-1.8 threadnaughts. Basically, it was pretty widely understood the role / racial bonuses (particularly for Assaults) was lackluster at best. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2251	Posted - 2014.06.06 00:22:00 - [29] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Spot on as usual, Cross. I rarely believe that nerfing something actually equals a "buff" to something else. You also bring up a pretty interesting discussion on ISK / SP investment by relative suit. Couple quick thoughts... 1) I like the double grenade option. That actually introduces tactical flexibility similar to how the commando suit approaches things with 2x light weapons. 2) Perhaps rebalancing module slots would also work. It never made since that the Logi suit has better highs and lows than the assault...it has little if anything to do with effectively running and employing critical combat equipment. At a minimum I think equalizing the slots would work. 3) I think if you required an equipment slot in the logi suits in a similar fashion (the ubiquitous "red box") that you do with weapon slots that would help quite a bit. That's where the logi equipment bonus for CPU / PG resource cost reduction can really come into play. 4) Perhaps lower the the CPU / PG resource cost of grenades for Assaults as well. 5) I'm not sure that the racial bonuses for the suits are there. This is a huge topic and I would refer you to some of the pre-1.8 threadnaughts. Basically, it was pretty widely understood the role / racial bonuses (particularly for Assaults) was lackluster at best. Responses listed in order Adding another nade slot to increase assault suit combat flexibility seems worth looking at. It gives them something unique which the suit badly needs and it fits with their 'high gank' role theme. I'm honestly rather in favor of normalizing both base stats and high/low mod slots (by race), this way the logi can at best be "as good" as the assault suit and it's bonuses are still not geared for combat. If we give the assault a little bit more gank such as the nade slot that would further provide role distinction. And normalizing the base stats on the two suits keeps logi suits from being utterly useless (as they nearly are now for support in competitive play). I'm usually opposed to requirements as much as possible in a sandbox game. This however is the exception. I've been an advocate for this idea since before the CalLogi skill buff was changed and I still support it now. Further I'd say it shouldn't be "have one bit of equipment" but rather "have something in every equipment slot". I'd be comfortable with giving this a try, some sort of innate total ammo buff for racial weapons would be another way to go. In both of these cases it would also give support play a bit more relevance in that there's likely to be a bit more of a use for hives (if your squad is doing well). @ Thread: To truly fix the Assault, we need to give it more role definition than "I'm faster than a Heavy, more tanky than a scout, and I can kill any logi 9/10 times". If that method is employed the assault role will always either be UP or OP because of it's flexibility. We need to add incomparables to the Assault role to make it shine, not just fiddle with the numbers. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 406	Posted - 2014.06.06 00:53:00 - [30] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @ Thread: To truly fix the Assault, we need to give it more role definition than "I'm faster than a Heavy, more tanky than a scout, and I can kill any logi 9/10 times". If that method is employed the assault role will always either be UP or OP because of it's flexibility. We need to add incomparables to the Assault role to make it shine, not just fiddle with the numbers. 0.02 ISK Cross I agree with this. Save flexibility for the medium frames which should still be a viable option with max skills. The specialisations should be specialised. Being specialised as a generalist is silly. As for what specialisation for assaults, the regen suggestion has potential.



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