What's the point of making suits BPO's, but everything else not? suits are being tiercided, so there's literraly no point in doing so imo. I need a valid explanation (and that whole "the suit is important" **** is not a valid argument. it's not the suit that's important, it's the ISK value, and the fit itself that's important).

As far as I see it, it jsut takes away from manufacturing and the market.


Peace, Godin

Agreed, thing is with the suits becoming BPOs, its taking away the risk and reward system we have come to know and love. Also I feel it is dangerously pushing us close to the whole item level system that WoW has.

The only way that I could see suit BPO's working is if they are exactly that: Blueprints.

In EVE the Bigger, Badder, B¦¦e¦¦t¦¦t¦¦e¦¦r¦¦,¦¦ ¦¦f¦¦a¦¦s¦¦t¦¦e¦¦r¦¦,¦¦ ¦¦s¦¦t¦¦r¦¦o¦¦n¦¦g¦¦e¦¦r¦¦ ships can be manufactured using BPOs. The trend is that the higher tier ship's BPOs become progressively rarer, such that a frigate BP is cheap while a titan BP is worth billions, if not trillions of ISK a piece.

This system could carry over to legion rather easily, but only if the player-run market came to fruition. Also, to ensure continued rarity of high-tier BPOs, only a few dozen should be injected into the market, then left to be bought off. No/astronomically rare salvage.

If ALL suits become BPO, then expect the price of weapons and modules to go up. It is that simple.

What I'm assuming is the design idea of creating an environment where people always want more SP. By introducing a node-unlock system - new suits are always valuable... no matter what.

In a system with increasing price for new suits, a relatively poor player could look at a tree and say. Well I really like my basic heavy suit, and I really want to try that amarr heavy but at ### ISK per suit I'll never be able to afford that. Therefore giving that player little reason to want to purchase that suit (with SP).

Also, I'm not sure they want to deal with salvaging suits. They've already made it clear that all modules will be salvaged and player traded in legion. It may get messy if you are always finding tons of modules and never finding any of the one specific suit you wish to run. I think they are trying to get away from having anything NPC seeded (eventually at least, probably will start with a seeded market).

I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with the design decision but that's the only explanation I can come up with for it.

I don't know if its a crisis either though, the additional cost will just be wrapped up in the modules and weapons. Higher tier suits = more module slots = naturally higher isk cost.

If we're worried about specialist suits making earlier generalist suits completely useless (where a cheaper price could be a very valid reason to use them) you can always give generalist suits higher base stats and less module slots - giving those suits a naturally cheaper price as well.

That is all I can really think to explain it. I can see valid reasons to use either design.

The only way that I could see suit BPO's working is if they are exactly that: Blueprints.

In EVE the Bigger, Badder, B¦¦e¦¦t¦¦t¦¦e¦¦r¦¦,¦¦ ¦¦f¦¦a¦¦s¦¦t¦¦e¦¦r¦¦,¦¦ ¦¦s¦¦t¦¦r¦¦o¦¦n¦¦g¦¦e¦¦r¦¦ ships can be manufactured using BPOs. The trend is that the higher tier ship's BPOs become progressively rarer, such that a frigate BP is cheap while a titan BP is worth billions, if not trillions of ISK a piece.

This system could carry over to legion rather easily, but only if the player-run market came to fruition. Also, to ensure continued rarity of high-tier BPOs, only a few dozen should be injected into the market, then left to be bought off. No/astronomically rare salvage.

That's why you would............. manufacture them........................

Sure I can understand the appeal to that. I think they've already said they aren't bringing industry to Legion.

I would be all for manufacturing suits myself. Either via Legion or EVE. I could see running mining ops with mining drones and reprocessing salvaged modules that you dont really want (great for preventing bloat and maintaining a price floor on common items) and creating salvaged items like 'Metal Scraps' in EVE which are pretty much designed to be reprocessed.

I could see a whole market created around planetary mineral trading etc etc. There is room for a lot of depth in that.

I was just trying to explain why they decided not to, there are plenty of alternatives sure.

My point is that they should. PVE shouldn't be the sole runner of the market, as things wouldn't come in fast enough unless they **** out items though PVE, at a insane rate. But at that point, there's no point in the market unless

1: you get a very low amount of ISK, which you could just get ISK from a Cap (they said they will eventually bind the markets together)

2: the system forces you to go to the market to get the specifics that you want.

The system would be so random that it would be imo silly to go down a all PVE path to getting gear. We lose our **** after all........

I assume the idea is to be flooded with common modules (std) and have a harder time finding the uncommon and rare ones. It would be nice to be able to break down commons and use the mats to build higher meta modules though. You could make it so that adv modules require only minerals to produce (with appropriate skills) and pro modules require rare salvaged materials from low sec and null sec. A similar type of combine system to tech I and tech II in EVE. Tech II very often (if not always, not that familiar with tech II industry in EVE) requires non-mineral materials to create stuff.

Could give a real purpose to planetary conquest as well. Own a planet, toss a refining installation = less refining waste from reprocessing common modules, toss on a research lab to generate pro materials.

All sorts of cool ****. I'm certainly all for it man, don't get me wrong. I'm really getting into Industry in EVE and it would be a great system in Legion.

To be fair, someone once said that if BPOs, in the sense of being free, are just limited to the dropsuit while everything else that is NOT a suit remains as a consumable, then all this will mean is that the cost of the suit will simply shift over to the weapons, modules, and vehicles. Therefore the risk remains the same.

However, I still find it unnatural to see something like the dropsuits become BPOs in this way. If that's the case, then let's hope that it's ONLY the suits they making them into and nothing else.

If the cost shifts over, then as I said, what's the point? It's not like when you die all your SP for that suit disappears........

Weeeeeelllllll..... umm...

/looks at the Tengu, Legion, Proteus, and Loki

What's the point of making suits BPO's, but everything else not? suits are being tiercided, so there's literraly no point in doing so imo. I need a valid explanation (and that whole "the suit is important" **** is not a valid argument. it's not the suit that's important, it's the ISK value, and the fit itself that's important).

As far as I see it, it jsut takes away from manufacturing and the market.


Peace, Godin

It's to encourage players to use their suits. It only works because of tiercide and the ability to shift costs onto modules and weapons.

you will still buy and trade suits. It's just going be a one time purchase.

All throughout this thread; the word BPO has been so misused.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Blueprint#Overview

If you want suits to never deplete, say infinite stock, not BPO; or the two different concepts WILL be confused.

Im ok with haveing dropsuits as somthing that levels i simply see it as a very basic bit of gear that comes with every clone. The idea that my suit/suits grows with me is nice as its a very visual sense of progresion.

I dont get why people hate the idea of unlimited dropsuits given it just means the cost of other items go up.

It also means its worth me spening sp into as in Dust514 i dont level anything beyond basic as i cant afford any dropsits above that level anyway

Also, if the price of it goes into the modules, then what's the point of it all? That just means that the price would stay about the same, and since there's tiercide (honestly looking at the suit tree that Z proposed, it still seems like there's tiers still, just not as bad as before; like it has a whole bunch of basic suits and then several layers of T II suits, which seems entirely unnecessary imo).

They obviously have some sort of reason for wanting to do free suits. The real question is, why not do it?

Because, as I said already a thousand times, there's no point in it, and it takes away from manufacturing and the market. Can you read?

Its been said multiple times that Legion wont have manufacturing...

Can you read?

I've already told you (twice) how I feel about that.

You didn't answer the question,

You feel all you want... if there is no manufacturing in Legion - there are reasons to make dropsuits free at least until manufacturing can be added in.

Z's words were (paraphrased but keeping the meaning as best I can):

"I like emotional attachment in games. One of the problems I have currently with DUST is the 'I am a good player, I have been playing for 8 months but for some reason I have had a lousy few days.' You can end up with nothing in your inventory. I don't like that. What you should be most attached to is your dropsuit. You should be proud of that dropsuit; it is you. You are not some mercenary. You are not Tony Stark: you are Iron Man. By having that Dropsuit always be there, it becomes the thing that players can become attached to. I want for players to look back at all their suits and go 'That was my first dropsuit' or 'I remember when I first got that and I played like s***.' You keep them to create your own story."

When a player asked about the monetary hit of using his prototype dropsuit, Z went with (again, paraphrased):

"That shouldn't happen; you should never feel like you don't want to use your best dropsuit because of the price. Remember, you are Iron Man. The suit itself is what you should be attached to. Not wanting to use this suit because it is expensive is something that I find as a poor design. The economics of a dropsuit costing X can be changed very easily by moving the price on to the modules. The point is that once you unlock a dropsuit, you should be attached to it. By making it last forever as a BPO makes players not afraid of using it because they shouldn't be afraid of using it. They should be proud that they unlocked this dropsuit."

I believe that is his reasoning over dropsuits that get destroyed. It is also a way for them to make sure that players are never screwed over by the market that they can at least use their dropsuits even if they can't afford the best modules. Overall, I am just curious how it will work and "what the hell happens to my dozen dropsuit BPO's?"

What's the point of making suits BPO's, but everything else not? suits are being tiercided, so there's literraly no point in doing so imo. I need a valid explanation (and that whole "the suit is important" **** is not a valid argument. it's not the suit that's important, it's the ISK value, and the fit itself that's important).

As far as I see it, it jsut takes away from manufacturing and the market.


Peace, Godin

To put this into perspective, Godin, can you explain to me why our Clones are free in DUST, outside of PC?

Your best dropsuit can always be used regardless, as tiercide is happening. The price will go into the modules, so as I've said already, there's no point in that. Also, nobody cares about the dropsuit; they care about the fit. He doesn't get it I think...............

He wants people to not care about the fit or the modules but about the dropsuit itself. Even with tiericide happening, the price of a dropsuit still shouldn't be an obstacle. My guess is that is what is argument would be. "I want people to care about the dropsuit and not the fittings. The modules are a tool for the dropsuit while the dropsuit should be everything to you."

Like I said, that is what I assume his reasoning is. I can't argue for him, nor do I care to because I don't know how to feel about the whole shtick; merely try to relate to those that are having trouble seeing his reasons for doing it is all.

Because, as I said already a thousand times, there's no point in it, and it takes away from manufacturing and the market. Can you read?

If the cost shifts over, then as I said, what's the point? It's not like when you die all your SP for that suit disappears........

Pardon me, sir, but could I have 25 cents?
I'm sorry, no. I cannot in good conscience give you 25 cents as that would be illogical. Instead, my good man, here are 5 nickels!

Wait. What?

.....

I say let all gear be tiered by level of rarity. They could even be designated by color: gold, purple, blue, and gray in descending order. In that EVE players will not be manufacturing suits (cuz BPOs really are only the recipes *twitches*), then let those suits be "tied" to the character in some fashion. Perhaps the Amarr have come up with some mystical spiritual bond with their suits, effectively binding them to their ...souls? Over time, others have learned their techniques to do the same?

So, when we are killed, we retain our suit upon respawn. That means that when my consciousness is transmitted to a reserve clone, my suit automatically dematerializes, the sub-atomic particles are then vacuumed up by a patrolling drone, transmitted back to our clone reserve stock via some micro-warp gate technology, then downloaded to my newly animated clone, materializing and wrapping itself around me, all Spawn-like ready to fight the good fight.

OK. Now, after respawn, we can work our way back to our recently deceased corpse and reclaim any gear we left behind. I think there should be a res-sickness though for 5 minutes or so.

If we can't tie in directly to the EVE market, then perhaps an auction house would be nice for simple player-to-player trades? In that our progression system is also being revamped, we should probably consider those vets that have been playing for a year or more. To help them get back to the status that they were before rebuild, maybe post an AURUM item that would allow the player a one-time jump to level 90? At least they won't be starting over, ya know?


lol.
In all seriousness, though, I completely forgot what the thread was about. =\

Oh. Yeah, I don't get it either.

1) BPOs are recipes. Not actual suits. They still technically should be manufactured using in-game mining, processing, and manufacturing. Even if DUST.....er LEGION'rs can't manufacture from lack of PVE, then EVE players can and drop them on us. That's always bugged the p!ss out of me as to why the hell they just up and decided to ignore established mechanics. At least use another acronym.

2) Why add the awkward associations that may come when suits are permanent, yet modules, gear, and weapons are not? Would that not in and of itself be counter intuitive to a new player? To any player, for that matter. Oh I died. Cool! I still have my suit! *joins battle* ...wait. why is my fitting all red and why can't I select it???? You still have the issue of explaining stock depletion for everything else. "Well kid, the EVE universe is a cold, cruel place. We're gonna make it easy on you though, because normally when you die? You lose your s***. Here though, we're gonna cut you some slack! When you die you keep your suit! Oh and one more thing: when you die, you still lose your s*** but on the plus, your suit is good to go! Have fun, young merc, and make your momma proud!"

C. It's still going to cost the same! Sure, it gets absorbed by the components, but if I can't afford to fit the better shield or weapon bits, what difference does it make? 6 to one, and one-half dozen to the other.

Q: I just wanted to type. It's the end of the day. I doubt my post has anything relevant to add to this discussion. I need to stop. I'm starting to feel like a sci-fi Lewis Black.


less than 3.
<3
heart.



edit: haha ok, so after reading this again I kinda feel like a tool. My apologies. lol, but it was kinda fun to vent. I'm not this pissy usually. I'll go back to my normal docile self now.

He wants people to not care about the fit or the modules but about the dropsuit itself. Even with tiericide happening, the price of a dropsuit still shouldn't be an obstacle. My guess is that is what is argument would be. "I want people to care about the dropsuit and not the fittings. The modules are a tool for the dropsuit while the dropsuit should be everything to you."

Like I said, that is what I assume his reasoning is. I can't argue for him, nor do I care to because I don't know how to feel about the whole shtick; merely try to relate to those that are having trouble seeing his reasons for doing it is all.

I agree. Cost shifts over to modules and what have we gained?

We've given up a powerful piece of immersion(every item in New Eden is manufactured by somebody/something from real minerals mined by somebody/something) for players identifying with their dropsuits?

Will you identify with your dropsuit? I know i won't. I'll identify with how well i do my job on the battlefield, my race, my corp, my enemies. My triumphs and failures. A dropsuit is nothing compared to those things.

If CCP Z is trying to address player risk aversion the answer is easy: make dropsuits relatively inexpensive, and maintain the economic and lore connection with New Eden.

---

If the reason for a magic BPO dropsuit that requires no minerals is some monetization scheme, making the decision to throw away a fundamental immersive and social/economic interaction-building component of New Eden is a dangerous and slippery slope.

To put this into perspective, Gobin, can you explain to me why our Clones are free in DUST, outside of PC?

Just to clarify on the 'suit is me' problems, we currently identify the role/class based on the suit. Are you dressed in yellow, then you are logistics. Are you fat and pudgy, then you are a heavy and you're definitely packing a heavy weapon. Right now we play a role/squad shooter, and our suit looks reflect our role and ISK investment values(black), and absolutely everyone switches roles or adjusts their ISK investment as needed (fun dynamics), and nobody wants an ambiguous cowboy hat and duster. How would we know what you are packing under your coat? There would be a solid MMO element to it, a custom look, and maybe showing your equipment and weapons on an external backpack or something...but it would be a lot more like Starwars Galaxies and a lot less like Battlefield. It would be a mistake...

I also know the plan is to make the 'roles' these massive SP sinks, but that's not going to stop me from dual training Logi and Heavy, and eventually Assault and Scout as well. What's going to happen to the 'suit is me' dynamic?

The only way that I could see suit BPO's working is if they are exactly that: Blueprints.

Hope so.

But... Then what happens to the BPC's!

The only way that I could see suit BPO's working is if they are exactly that: Blueprints.

In EVE the Bigger, Badder, B¦¦e¦¦t¦¦t¦¦e¦¦r¦¦,¦¦ ¦¦f¦¦a¦¦s¦¦t¦¦e¦¦r¦¦,¦¦ ¦¦s¦¦t¦¦r¦¦o¦¦n¦¦g¦¦e¦¦r¦¦ ships can be manufactured using BPOs. The trend is that the higher tier ship's BPOs become progressively rarer, such that a frigate BP is cheap while a titan BP is worth billions, if not trillions of ISK a piece.

This system could carry over to legion rather easily, but only if the player-run market came to fruition. Also, to ensure continued rarity of high-tier BPOs, only a few dozen should be injected into the market, then left to be bought off. No/astronomically rare salvage.

What's the point of making suits BPO's, but everything else not? suits are being tiercided, so there's literraly no point in doing so imo. I need a valid explanation (and that whole "the suit is important" **** is not a valid argument. it's not the suit that's important, it's the ISK value, and the fit itself that's important).

As far as I see it, it jsut takes away from manufacturing and the market.


Peace, Godin

I thought I would take the time today to give you a serious and thought out response.

(Also, sorry for misspelling your name earlier. I am dyslexic and transposed the letters GÇ£dGÇ¥ and GÇ£bGÇ¥ consistently for close to 30 years. It usually does not happen now, but ever so often it happens still. When I try to read your name at a glance it comes out as GÇ¥Goblin The KillerGÇ¥.)

Anyway, back on topic.

If I understand CCP ZGÇÖs reasoning correctly, he thinks that since your suit is the majority of what people see when they look at your character, he feels that it is the defining attribute of your identity. He felt that people who did not have large incomes in DUST were restricted to drab grey suits that did not allow them to express themselves.

Having the Dropsuit as a BPO and getting rid of Standard and Advanced suits means that everyone will have the extra slots of a proto suit. (I have been running mostly standard suits for the majority of my DUST career, so I like this change.) Now if someone wants to run a cheap fit, instead of running a Standard or Militia suit, they will just run Standard or Militia modules. They may even decide to leave slots empty to save ISK.

In this system your progression can be expressed with the suit you are able to ware, while you wealth will be expressed in the quality of weapon you chose to use. I assume there will still be Officer weapons.

I expect that we will all start with a Militia BPO suit. Dropsuit upgrades will mostly come from people scavenging/salvaging dropsuit BPOGÇÖs. When they get a BPO they donGÇÖt need they will sell it on the market. To upgrade our dropsuit we will have to both train the skill to use the suit, and acquiring the BPO, either from Salvage, the Market, the LP Store, or with AUR.

If the BPO is a 1 time purchase, it plays well into customised or unique suits that people may try to get to express their personality. People are more likely to spend AUR on a Red Dropsuit BPO than they are on 50 Red Dropsuits that they will quickly use up. Even if the BPO cost way more than the individual suits would have, it feels better psychologically to pay for something that is permanent.


If you want an RP explanation for why we donGÇÖt have to pay for our Dropsuits, I can come up with one. I am good at coming up with RP explanations for stuff.

If we take the dropsuit progression prototype from Z's presentation, I think we're gonna have something like so for one of the paths (lets choose assault):

Academy Suit

Basic Medium Suit

Basic Assault Suit

'Racial' Assault Suit.

I'm curious Godin, with a tiercided system, what do you think each of these should approximately cost?