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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7607
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Posted - 2014.05.16 12:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys
So on our list of things to look at, vehicle turrets are pretty high on our list. We've got some ideas floating around but we also wanted to hear from you guys as well. We're looking first at the Large Blaster Turrets, especially against infantry, but we're open to thoughts on vehicle turrets in general both against infantry and vehicles (though focusing on the first one more at the moment)
Please try to be concise and to the point with your feedback, bullet points are easier to digest. If you've got a thread running already, feel free to link to it in your post, but don't copy paste your entire thread to here.
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
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shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
2136
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo.
PSN: ogamega
I'm here to bla bla bla...
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7607
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo.
This is something I've heard a lot from people in the past, definitely one change that we're looking at trying out.
One thing I didn't touch on in the OP (and I'll edit it as well) is how people see the effectiveness of small turrets. Thoughts on those?
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13362
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
I feel that large missile turrets should have a shotgun style reload, but I don't think that's a server side change. (?)
On small turrets:
Small missile turrets are the best atm, for both anti-infantry and AV. Especially on assault dropships, where they're basically the only option.
Small railguns are mostly in a good place but I'm baffled as to why there's an overheat on them. It would excel in a focused AV role except overheat stops it being able to sustain the damage output long enough to kill vehicles. I'd like to see these as the best small turret for pure AV.
Small blasters aren't really very good. They're just kind of... lacking. You can't really use them on an assault dropship, if you're going to use them on an LAV it's more effective (and safer) to get out and use a rifle, and if you're going to use them to gun on an HAV there are better things to do with that player.
One thing I don't like about small turrets in general is their use on LAVs. They're overly difficult to hit targets with whilst moving and if you're stationary the gunner can get killed very, very easily. I'd like to see a frontal shield on LAV gunners - that way they're still very vulnerable if you flank them but if you attack them head on they can actually be dangerous. Though again that's not really a server side change...
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
2361
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
What is the design choose for having more of a turret user exposed in a turret than if they were just behind cover? You are better getting out and behind the LAV. Probably not doable anymore but making the turret block more hits would be nice. |
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7608
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I feel that large missile turrets should have a shotgun style reload, but I don't think that's a server side change. (?)
On small turrets:
Small missile turrets are the best atm, for both anti-infantry and AV. Especially on assault dropships, where they're basically the only option.
Small railguns are mostly in a good place but I'm baffled as to why there's an overheat on them. It would excel in a focused AV role except overheat stops it being able to sustain the damage output long enough to kill vehicles. I'd like to see these as the best small turret for pure AV.
Small blasters aren't really very good. They're just kind of... lacking. You can't really use them on an assault dropship, if you're going to use them on an LAV it's more effective (and safer) to get out and use a rifle, and if you're going to use them to gun on an HAV there are better things to do with that player.
One thing I don't like about small turrets in general is their use on LAVs. They're overly difficult to hit targets with whilst moving and if you're stationary the gunner can get killed very, very easily. I'd like to see a frontal shield on LAV gunners - that way they're still very vulnerable if you flank them but if you attack them head on they can actually be dangerous. Though again that's not really a server side change...
Shotgun style reload for missiles is interesting, might actually be possible serverside. I'll look into it.
I think I've heard from some people on the forums that small rails have reduced damage against vehicles (?!), so we'll look at that first. I think the overheat is there more to limit it against infantry, so maybe we need to just give it a boost in damage against vehicles anyway.
Small blasters are the one I'm most worried about for the small turrets. Not really sure where to start with them personally, I think someone else had some ideas. Still interested to hear some ideas from people on how to make them better in an anti-infantry role, with at least some ability to tickle vehicles. It would be nice to have them as a viable option for dropships against infantry.
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
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Brush Master
HavoK Core
RISE of LEGION
1231
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Being a pilot, small missile are the only viable option to kill infantry on the ground and give a dual purpose as AV.
Small baster have far too short of range, hard to hit infantry and do too low of damage to be effective.
Small railguns seem about right for AV but could see them needing less heat build up or a small damage buff.
I have some problems with the large missile turrets and AI in general. There are a couple maps where the AI missiles turrets will lock on my dropship even though I did not fire on them and they will actually spam you the entire game, even firing at your 400m away. The projectiles of large missile turrets have a range larger then the maps we play on and for some reason the AI just keeps spamming you.
Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ?
twitter.com/dustreports
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Harpyja
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1725
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm of the opinion that turret type should play a bigger factor for the role as opposed to turret size. For example, blasters, large and small, should be most effective at AI due to their nature of operation, but they must suffer when it comes to engaging another vehicle.
The large blaster in 1.6 was just way too good because it was the best turret for killing infantry and the best turret for killing vehicles. There was absolutely no trade off to balance it's AI power.
I have a full (went up to the character limit) thread and discussion on the large turrets: Balancing the Large Turrets. It's what I feel the balance between the large turrets should look like.
I mentioned somewhere later in the thread that ultimately the "rock paper scissors" will look like: AI (blaster) tank > infantry > AV infantry > AV (missile/railgun) tank > AI tank. This is just a flow chart of effectiveness and the best counter towards something (though infantry and AV vehicles can counter themselves well, it's just that the outcome won't be as clear).
This kind of balance will make for interesting gameplay if balanced properly. One team will want to field AI tanks to kill infantry and AV infantry to kill enemy AV tanks while the enemy will want to deploy AV tanks to counter the AI tanks and regular infantry to defend their tanks from enemy AV infantry. So you'll have this back and forth going on while the rest of the teams' infantry do their thing.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13364
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:
Shotgun style reload for missiles is interesting, might actually be possible serverside. I'll look into it.
Just going to justify this one a little more - missile reload is painfully long and of all the large turrets it's by far the most crippling to it, leading to the missile turret probably being the worst of them. I imagine your own statistics will show LMLs as being much less common than large blasters or large railguns.
Quote:
I think I've heard from some people on the forums that small rails have reduced damage against vehicles (?!), so we'll look at that first. I think the overheat is there more to limit it against infantry, so maybe we need to just give it a boost in damage against vehicles anyway.
That definitely at least used to be the case, but I thought it'd been fixed. It might be worth testing - if you can't find out I'll check this evening. There was a lot of complaining about it in the past, you likely heard about it then.
Perhaps boosting damage against vehicles is a better idea than dropping overheat. I think you're right to say that overheat helps limit against infantry - I've used them to snipe infantry in the past.
Quote:
Small blasters are the one I'm most worried about for the small turrets. Not really sure where to start with them personally, I think someone else had some ideas. Still interested to hear some ideas from people on how to make them better in an anti-infantry role, with at least some ability to tickle vehicles. It would be nice to have them as a viable option for dropships against infantry.
Same. They're definitely the weakest of the batch.
It's generally quite difficult to hit infantry reliably with them. Perhaps style them after the HMG? Very high RoF, long clip size, large dispersion - that'd allow you to hit infantry from a vehicle more reliably. They'd be able to tickle vehicles with that kind of firepower, though that should be something to watch, as having an excellent AI and AV turret would be problematic.
Range is also a little lacking on them.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2925
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Blaster damage against tanks does seem okay to me as well. Too precise against infantry though I agree... when you ADS on a large blaster its like shooting an AR with twice the damage and range... zero recoil and zero dispersion.
Large Railgun range need to be bumped back up a little. 350-400m I think after many a discussion with dedicated tankers. I would prefer damage falloff but I know that's not feasible for projectiles.
Gallente ADS - range bonus on blasters maybe? Its true that a dropship should not use blasters... way too short of a range for that.
Small Blasters in general could probably use a dispersion increase and RoF buff... make them more like vehicle mounted HMGs imo.
LAVs in general... Its just not feasible to use that gun with no protection. You are pretty much asking for headshots... brick tanked sentinels are the only ones that are really viable on a LAV turret. |
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shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
2137
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Posted - 2014.05.16 13:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo. This is something I've heard a lot from people in the past, definitely one change that we're looking at trying out. One thing I didn't touch on in the OP (and I'll edit it as well) is how people see the effectiveness of small turrets. Thoughts on those?
All small turrets have never been precise while the vehicle was moving.
Basically this is the major problem of all the little turrets, they don't shoot where you aim.
Tracer rounds for blaster turrets would help.
Small rails should have pinpoint accuracy, but a lot of times, even if the reticule/dot is red, the shot can't hit the target.
PSN: ogamega
I'm here to bla bla bla...
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ResistanceGTA
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1199
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Posted - 2014.05.16 14:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thank you Arkena, I've always thought the Large Missile's should have a shotgun reload ability, heck, that's what they are in the turret world.
Could we actually look into making yellow ai turrets not so WP valuable? Sure, if they're red, make them +100, but non-functioning turrets shouldn't be worth as much as an objective hack. I know you're asking about Vehicle Turrets, but, I think most people have already said what is needed. Large Blasters need dispersion, Small Blasters need a purpose, and Small Rails need to have their damage profile looked at.
And, if we do look at ai turrets, the Missile variety seem to never give up attacking me no matter how far I fly, and their missiles follow me everywhere (usually someone has hopped onto them when its shooting me from 400+ meters). They need a range change.
I think I'm over Dust now...
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
2551
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Posted - 2014.05.16 14:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Large turrets should never be an effective way to kill infantry.
Also, please make NPC turret installations more fearsome and tankier. They all get killed off in the first 60 seconds of the match.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
533
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo. This is something I've heard a lot from people in the past, definitely one change that we're looking at trying out. One thing I didn't touch on in the OP (and I'll edit it as well) is how people see the effectiveness of small turrets. Thoughts on those?
Small missile - fine
Small Blaster - people say 1.6 was good, absolute bollocks, they know nothing. Its it 1.4 blasters you need to return. (now they have hit detection issues, poor splash) do not introduce scattering.
Small railgun - good right now but hit detection is awful just like the blaster.
Veteran Pilot
"Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7615
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Evolution-7 wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo. This is something I've heard a lot from people in the past, definitely one change that we're looking at trying out. One thing I didn't touch on in the OP (and I'll edit it as well) is how people see the effectiveness of small turrets. Thoughts on those? Small missile - fine Small Blaster - people say 1.6 was good, absolute bollocks, they know nothing. Its it 1.4 blasters you need to return. (now they have hit detection issues, poor splash) do not introduce scattering. Small railgun - good right now but hit detection is awful just like the blaster.
He was referring to Large Blasters, not small. Haven't heard anyone say we should go for 1.6 small blasters. 
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
(a¦á_a¦á)
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Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
533
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Evolution-7 wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo. This is something I've heard a lot from people in the past, definitely one change that we're looking at trying out. One thing I didn't touch on in the OP (and I'll edit it as well) is how people see the effectiveness of small turrets. Thoughts on those? Small missile - fine Small Blaster - people say 1.6 was good, absolute bollocks, they know nothing. Its it 1.4 blasters you need to return. (now they have hit detection issues, poor splash) do not introduce scattering. Small railgun - good right now but hit detection is awful just like the blaster. He was referring to Large Blasters, not small. Haven't heard anyone say we should go for 1.6 small blasters.
Thank you for the response and by this, I hope you read that small blasters where fine pre 1.4, they are good now (not as good as 1.3 small blasters) but they have real awful hit detection issues.
Veteran Pilot
"Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7615
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Evolution-7 wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Evolution-7 wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo. This is something I've heard a lot from people in the past, definitely one change that we're looking at trying out. One thing I didn't touch on in the OP (and I'll edit it as well) is how people see the effectiveness of small turrets. Thoughts on those? Small missile - fine Small Blaster - people say 1.6 was good, absolute bollocks, they know nothing. Its it 1.4 blasters you need to return. (now they have hit detection issues, poor splash) do not introduce scattering. Small railgun - good right now but hit detection is awful just like the blaster. He was referring to Large Blasters, not small. Haven't heard anyone say we should go for 1.6 small blasters. Thank you for the response and by this, I hope you read that small blasters where fine pre 1.4, they are good now (not as good as 1.3 small blasters) but they have real awful hit detection issues.
Pretty much. A couple of people have also responded that the range is a bit low. Have you ever tried it out on your ADS, and if yes, do you think a bit of extra range would actually make it viable? Or is it just a losing battle as you can't shoot and scoot with a blaster.
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
(a¦á_a¦á)
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Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
533
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Range improvements, yes please, another 30 meters would be awesome.
On a side note, I have talked about this before, can the module visuals be changed server side as when my vehicles hardeners are activated, it is very obtrusive to my gunners line of fire and sight.
Veteran Pilot
"Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
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ANON Cerberus
Tiny Toons
702
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Blaster damage is fine, precision and range are way too high.
1.6 dispersion and range were fine, imo.
This so much.
I feel the level of damage while high, isn't the issue. The damage at range is too great. |
Emo Skellington
The Neutral Zone
62
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Large Railgun- Militia needs to be nerfed but keep basic where it is (to OP compared to counterparts bcuz of damage mods)
Large Blaster- Militia needs to be nerfed a tiny bit but keep basic where it is also
Large Missiles- Fine
Small Blaster- Firing while moving needs improvment (still little UP for infantry)
Possibly give Blaster a HMG type of fire but still keep it somewhat tight grouping
Small Railgun- Firing while moving needs improvment (Fine on power but needs to remove overheat)
Small Missile- Firing while moving needs improvment (good for both AV and infantry, keep it)
Please bring back tier level tanks and ADS
Just nerf the militias and bring an ADV tank and ADS in and vehicle people will love it.
PS: You may also want to bring the prices of ADS down, boost the base tank price, but bring DOWN the Tank Turret prices.
Supporter of Legion
Supporter of Valkyrie
Supporter/Fan of Eve
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ratained
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Small missle turrets on drop ships are op. Ive had pythons come into the redline and be able to pop my full proto madrugar in 10 seconds or less. The ads with missiles needs to be nerfed. |
Emo Skellington
The Neutral Zone
62
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
ratained wrote:Small missle turrets on drop ships are op. Ive had pythons come into the redline and be able to pop my full proto madrugar in 10 seconds or less. The ads with missiles needs to be nerfed.
No the proto small missiles need to be nerfed.
ADV-idk
Basic/militia- no nerf needed
Supporter of Legion
Supporter of Valkyrie
Supporter/Fan of Eve
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Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Galactic Skyfleet Empire
82
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
A suggestion has been made to give large blaster turrets HMG dispersion and functionality. If you want, I could list the thread(s?) regarding them. I believe the suggestion was proposed by Cat Merc and someone else.
This allows infantry to be more survivable while still retaining damage, as not 100% will hit. |
ratained
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Large rails also need a about 25% range buff. Right now their is no feasible way for a madrugar to kill a large missile tank regardless of what fit/turret is used. |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
217
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
I will raise my objections currently against what has been said about the small rail turrets. It does not need a straight outright buff, it needs a trade off and to become more specialized, since it is similar to the small missile turret.
The small rail turret does need a longer amount of shots it can fire in a row, but it also needs a longer cd bar to go along with that. Otherwise the small rail turret will become far to effective against infantry and vehicles, it already is quite powerful and can one hit kill many of the infantry, maybe a slight splash damage range buff at the cost of splash damage might be in order?
The small blaster turret, this thing for LAV's is useless as it can not hit anything while going even at any speed at all. For tanks it can be useful if you can fit no other turret into your tank at the time, otherwise it is completely underwhelming in damage and in range and the accuracy isn't the best either.
The small missile turret....it's cool as is, I have no real problems with it.
For the large turrets now.
Large Rail turret, it's close to in a very good place, it does not need the range back that it once had, but perhaphs another 50m in order to be able to fight tanks and ADS better.
Large Blaster turret, I use it, but I understand how cheap this thing is, it needs to be more CQC then it currently is, especially since it can mow down infantry from over 150m currently with ease. Though to be honest it does not need to be messed with to much, just some so it isn't used to completely negate all AV measures of swarms and forge guns.
Large Missile turret, Something needs to be done about this, but I'm not sure what, it just feels overpowered at times. |
Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
704
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
It is not about vehicle turrets but installation turrets should have much higher HP, neutral ones should give no WP and AI should be nerfed or eliminated.
Because, that's why.
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lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
Zero-Day
218
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:It is not about vehicle turrets but installation turrets should have much higher HP, neutral ones should give no WP and AI should be nerfed or eliminated.
I can agree with you that the installation turrets need higher hp, they aren't moving they are stationary, I can agree with you that neutral ones should give no wp for a kill or reduced wp. However, AI should not be reduced or nerfed, it does need tweeking, such as it shouldn't constantly shoot an objective point for no reason. To get rid of the AI on the turret would make them useless assets to only be captured by the enemy or occassionally used and have no true defensive or offensive purpose. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15050
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
I feel all the current missile turrets be renamed to rockets; they're dumbfire munitions with no smart abilities such as passive or active locking.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Raedon Vo-Graza
Armored Dragon Corp
17
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:It is not about vehicle turrets but installation turrets should have much higher HP, neutral ones should give no WP and AI should be nerfed or eliminated.
i also believe that the ones that are at base should be invulnerable, but placed in more strategic locations for defense of the base only, instead of overlooking the map, until maps get bigger(which they probably won't) turrets are one of the last defenses against redlining. |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Galactic Skyfleet Empire
82
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:It is not about vehicle turrets but installation turrets should have much higher HP, neutral ones should give no WP and AI should be nerfed or eliminated.
As much as I hate installation turrets, I would be fine with an increase in health (50% at most) as long as the AI was removed. Honestly, I think that AI has no place in PvP gamemodes. In PvE, that is perfectly fine, even though we won't be getting that in Dust unfortunately...
Installations should behave just as vehicle turrets do. All turrets should require reloading, but still have infinite ammunition (or just a lot of it). |
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