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Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2584
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Posted - 2014.05.09 19:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Every time I think about Legion I think that BPO dropsuits are a bad idea. Because BPO dropsuits actually go against the very reason why the devs decided to make them BPOs: The emotional factor.
How can I become emotionally attached to something I can't lose anyways?
And of course: Everybody just using standard gear because they think protosuits are too expensive even though the players have the skill may not be the best way to solve this either, but it's better than just BPO dropsuits. Because when you have to buy a dropsuit you may actually think "during this mission I need to be on my best, so I will use expensive gear." but when your dropsuit is a BPO why should you ever use anything worse than your best dropsuit available?
I think the main problem here is that the devs used Dust as a orientation. But Dust is PvP only and the only source of income are Public matches for most people. And that's about 100k - 200k ISK ever match. But in Legion with the sandbox mode and the player market this will change. Because when you loot a lot and get rare lot once in a while you may actually make enough money to get killed even in full proto gear once in a while.
Making dropsuits to BPOs would only change one thing: The thing you're most attached to. This would become the next most expensive item you use. So probably your weapon.
Dropsuits would become worthless, because they actually are. And it would increase the power difference between noobs and pros. Of course you go for tiercide and all. But a proto suit is still better in some way than a standard suit. If it weren't there wouldn't be a reason for it to exist after all. And every player who is able to use a protosuit will do it then, while newbros are forced to use Std gear. There wouldn't be a case where you meet players who played for a year or so using anything else than proto dropsuits.
And I know Legion won't use the Std, Adv, Proto stuff anymore and will instead go for rarity, but let's be honest: That's basically the same thing.
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad.
5251
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Posted - 2014.05.09 20:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aikuchi Tomaru wrote:Every time I think about Legion I think that BPO dropsuits are a bad idea. Because BPO dropsuits actually go against the very reason why the devs decided to make them BPOs: The emotional factor.
How can I become emotionally attached to something I can't lose anyways?
And of course: Everybody just using standard gear because they think protosuits are too expensive even though the players have the skill may not be the best way to solve this either, but it's better than just BPO dropsuits. Because when you have to buy a dropsuit you may actually think "during this mission I need to be on my best, so I will use expensive gear." but when your dropsuit is a BPO why should you ever use anything worse than your best dropsuit available?
I think the main problem here is that the devs used Dust as a orientation. But Dust is PvP only and the only source of income are Public matches for most people. And that's about 100k - 200k ISK ever match. But in Legion with the sandbox mode and the player market this will change. Because when you loot a lot and get rare lot once in a while you may actually make enough money to get killed even in full proto gear once in a while.
Making dropsuits to BPOs would only change one thing: The thing you're most attached to. This would become the next most expensive item you use. So probably your weapon.
Dropsuits would become worthless, because they actually are. And it would increase the power difference between noobs and pros. Of course you go for tiercide and all. But a proto suit is still better in some way than a standard suit. If it weren't there wouldn't be a reason for it to exist after all. And every player who is able to use a protosuit will do it then, while newbros are forced to use Std gear. There wouldn't be a case where you meet players who played for a year or so using anything else than proto dropsuits.
And I know Legion won't use the Std, Adv, Proto stuff anymore and will instead go for rarity, but let's be honest: That's basically the same thing. Seconded.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8458
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Posted - 2014.05.09 20:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree.
Since Legion is still just in the prototype phase we still have a chance to convince CCP not to go this route. Eve players still have to pay for their ships on top of the weapons and modules they are fitted with. These are far more expensive than suits and you don't see Eve players complaining about it.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Kovinis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn
360
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Posted - 2014.05.09 20:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't really like to write in caps on rage, but...
EVERY STRUCTURE AND ASSET SHOULD BE DESTRUCTIBLE, BECAUSE THIS IS NEW EDEN, AND IN NEW EDEN NOTHING IS PERMANENT! AND EVERYTHING HAVE A PRICE - EVEN DEATH!
I support EVE Legion, but the message was very badly delivered...
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad.
5252
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Posted - 2014.05.09 20:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote on, you magnificent man.
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137H4RGIC
SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance
217
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Posted - 2014.05.09 20:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
I agree completely. But I think ccp is trying to attract a huge player base so we can have many epic ground battles simultaneously. Have easily double the number of dust mercenaries to pilots. I think since first person shooter require people who have short attention span, there needs to be something to hold them longer. They aren't the hardcore players that we are, which, well give us an edge in thoughts of stratagem and suit deployment. Hopefully our hardcore nature will give us an edge. But I see why ccp might want to do this. For their vision of what dust is, I support it but I don't agree with it.
EVE players? Good at Dust?! Let the indiscriminate slaughter of PC huggers begin >:)
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Forlorn Destrier
2475
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Posted - 2014.05.09 20:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'll add my voice to this - BPO suits are bad for the players, the playstyle, and the in game economy.
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad.
5254
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Posted - 2014.05.09 21:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
137H4RGIC wrote:I agree completely. But I think ccp is trying to attract a huge player base so we can have many epic ground battles simultaneously. Have easily double the number of dust mercenaries to pilots. I think since first person shooter require people who have short attention span, there needs to be something to hold them longer. They aren't the hardcore players that we are, which, well give us an edge in thoughts of stratagem and suit deployment. Hopefully our hardcore nature will give us an edge. But I see why ccp might want to do this. For their vision of what dust is, I support it but I don't agree with it. But see, that starts getting at this misconception a lot of people seem to have that people who play shooters are somehow inferior to the people who play EVE, for example.
I think the fact that we still have this many people playing Dust even with how complicated it is and everything we've all been put through as players says otherwise.
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Forlorn Destrier
2476
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Posted - 2014.05.09 21:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:137H4RGIC wrote:I agree completely. But I think ccp is trying to attract a huge player base so we can have many epic ground battles simultaneously. Have easily double the number of dust mercenaries to pilots. I think since first person shooter require people who have short attention span, there needs to be something to hold them longer. They aren't the hardcore players that we are, which, well give us an edge in thoughts of stratagem and suit deployment. Hopefully our hardcore nature will give us an edge. But I see why ccp might want to do this. For their vision of what dust is, I support it but I don't agree with it. But see, that starts getting at this misconception a lot of people seem to have that people who play shooters are somehow inferior to the people who play EVE, for example. I think the fact that we still have this many people playing Dust even with how complicated it is and everything we've all been put through as players says otherwise.
I agree to an extent with what he says, but you're right there were some things a little... condescending?... in the way he phrased his ideas.
Console gamers are not less committed, and can be described as hardcore. That said, many do prefer games with less in-depth impact while many others like something in depth. I guess the point is being a little less... stereotypical.... with how things are said. |
Hynox Xitio
0uter.Heaven
966
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 21:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
It makes more sense that suits get destroyed when their owner gets destroyed. Kind of like how leaves die if the tree falls down, its just common sense.
Unleash the Fogwoggler.
( -íº -£-û -íº) /)
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2813
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Posted - 2014.05.09 22:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
I also agree, I mean let's look at some other games with "suit bpo's".
1) Titanfall, your character model fits into one of 4 categories, CQC | Assault | Sniper | Support This is decided by your weapon, but you don't really care what you look like.
2) COD Black Ops 1, your character model was decided by your first perk (the blue one) not that you cared, there is literally no reward/punishment for (not) dying.
3) Battlefield, everyone looks EXACTLY the same, once again no reason to care.
Now with DUST, you have earnt your suit, skilled into got it in a black and red colour scheme, each suit is customised TO YOU, each module choice is made by you, your suit is the base of your fitting, it defines you, how people view you. Your suit is for all intensive purposes, is you.
It makes a every death sting just a little more knowing that, that suit is GONE. Your weapon is secondary, it's not you, it's YOUR weapon, but it's not YOU.
By making suits BPO's that attachment is lost, why do you care, you can just get another weapon from salvage. Don't do it CCP, please don't do it.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2176
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Posted - 2014.05.09 22:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yea, I agree
They couldn't even explain it lore wise tbh....
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Forlorn Destrier
2478
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Posted - 2014.05.09 22:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:I also agree, I mean let's look at some other games with "suit bpo's".
1) Titanfall, your character model fits into one of 4 categories, CQC | Assault | Sniper | Support This is decided by your weapon, but you don't really care what you look like.
2) COD Black Ops 1, your character model was decided by your first perk (the blue one) not that you cared, there is literally no reward/punishment for (not) dying.
3) Battlefield, everyone looks EXACTLY the same, once again no reason to care.
Now with DUST, you have earnt your suit, skilled into got it in a black and red colour scheme, each suit is customised TO YOU, each module choice is made by you, your suit is the base of your fitting, it defines you, how people view you. Your suit is for all intents and purposes, is you.
It makes a every death sting just a little more knowing that, that suit is GONE. Your weapon is secondary, it's not you, it's YOUR weapon, but it's not YOU.
By making suits BPO's that attachment is lost, why do you care, you can just get another weapon from salvage. Don't do it CCP, please don't do it.
Fixed it for you - sorry pet peeve of mine. |
Whinis
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
35
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Posted - 2014.05.09 23:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:I also agree, I mean let's look at some other games with "suit bpo's".
1) Titanfall, your character model fits into one of 4 categories, CQC | Assault | Sniper | Support This is decided by your weapon, but you don't really care what you look like.
2) COD Black Ops 1, your character model was decided by your first perk (the blue one) not that you cared, there is literally no reward/punishment for (not) dying.
3) Battlefield, everyone looks EXACTLY the same, once again no reason to care.
Now with DUST, you have earnt your suit, skilled into got it in a black and red colour scheme, each suit is customised TO YOU, each module choice is made by you, your suit is the base of your fitting, it defines you, how people view you. Your suit is for all intensive purposes, is you.
It makes a every death sting just a little more knowing that, that suit is GONE. Your weapon is secondary, it's not you, it's YOUR weapon, but it's not YOU.
By making suits BPO's that attachment is lost, why do you care, you can just get another weapon from salvage. Don't do it CCP, please don't do it.
Except as much as you claim this losing my suit never hurt, I treated it like another other module and just replaced it. I could make enough isk in one sitting that losing any suit ,that wasn't a event suit, like just another piece of equipment. I didn't care how I looked or even what I looked like all I cared was that it had enough slots or stats todo what I wanted. As it stands currently the suit is just another commodity and unless you want to make the suits cost ALOT more than they currently do it will stay that way.
The only reason it works in eve is because every ship that cost more than a frigate is often a significant portion of the cost of the entire fit and losing it is truely something to worry about, you don't just fly back to station and hop into another battleship or cruiser unless your space rich. In dust you don't have that worry, I bought my suits by the hundred and losing one didn't matter. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2197
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 23:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
From a long term Eve player perspective, I don't care if my suits are BPOs if the modules cost enough for death to sting. All they have to do is make sure that the modules are valuable enough.
"when your dropsuit is a BPO why should you ever use anything worse than your best dropsuit available?"
Because this is basically tiericide. Going up the tree isn't going to give you the huge jumps in power that going from standard to prototype does in the current Dust system. There's only the one level of each suit type. The point is to give each suit a particular role it excels at. like how Eve has cruisers that are good for brawling, kiting, sniping, repairing, drones, shields, armor, speed tanking etc. So you won't pick the "best" dropsuit, you'll pick the one that gives you the role you want to fill at that time. Suits higher up the tree will likely have more slots, making them more expensive to run for modest power increases and have higher meta levels which you have to take into account for matchmaking.
This also lets them do something else. Eliminate useless starter fits. You don't need cannon fodder suits that are no good for anything when every player starts with one role unlocked and unlimited suits for it.
I started playing Planetside 2 recently, and it seems like they're basically taking that game's approach to skills and increasing the complexity by about 10 times. Ie: rather than a handful of roles that you max out, each role leads to another one. The system described also has far more distinct suits built into it: 3 basic frames (light, medium, heavy), 4 basic roles, 4 racial variants of each role and then two specializations off of each of those. People talk about the proposed system as if it's going to be simple...well from what we've seen that's a kneejerk reaction without actually looking at what was shown. There's more complexity in it while being more accessible than what we have now. It's just that the complexity comes into picking the right suit for the job, rather than picking the right skills to make your suit super powerful.
So, benefits of the system shown to us: 1) More roles, no massive power advantage through simply having more SP (not as massive as now, anyway) 2) If you've invested in a suit you can always use it, even if you've been knocked down to using militia gear 3) Every player is fulfilling a legitimate role on the battlefield, no more useless noobs in frontline suits. 4) Clearly defined roles without power differentials built in means things are easier to balance, especially with weapons being locked to certain suits 5) Due to number 3 and the meta levels system, better matchmaking
Benefits of the current system: 1) Complex. Well, it's hard to understand why you should train one thing or another. Not really an advantage. I'd argue that having a larger number of suits balanced against each other makes the system more complex and interesting from a gameplay perspective. At least it LOOKS complex. It's also not very eve-like. If Eve had Dust's progression I wouldn't pick a ship to fill a certain role, I'd pick the ship that is the "best". 2) The super rich can use their wealth to stomp all over the poors, since they don't care if they lose a proto suit. The suit being inherently more powerful before modules are brought into play means the noob doesn't even have a chance. Not much of a benefit.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8462
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:From a long term Eve player perspective, I don't care if my suits are BPOs if the modules cost enough for death to sting. All they have to do is make sure that the modules are valuable enough.
"when your dropsuit is a BPO why should you ever use anything worse than your best dropsuit available?"
Because this is basically tiericide. Going up the tree isn't going to give you the huge jumps in power that going from standard to prototype does in the current Dust system. There's only the one level of each suit type. The point is to give each suit a particular role it excels at. like how Eve has cruisers that are good for brawling, kiting, sniping, repairing, drones, shields, armor, speed tanking etc. So you won't pick the "best" dropsuit, you'll pick the one that gives you the role you want to fill at that time. Suits higher up the tree will likely have more slots, making them more expensive to run for modest power increases and have higher meta levels which you have to take into account for matchmaking.
This also lets them do something else. Eliminate useless starter fits. You don't need cannon fodder suits that are no good for anything when every player starts with one role unlocked and unlimited suits for it.
I started playing Planetside 2 recently, and it seems like they're basically taking that game's approach to skills and increasing the complexity by about 10 times. Ie: rather than a handful of roles that you max out, each role leads to another one. The system described also has far more distinct suits built into it: 3 basic frames (light, medium, heavy), 4 basic roles, 4 racial variants of each role and then two specializations off of each of those. People talk about the proposed system as if it's going to be simple...well from what we've seen that's a kneejerk reaction without actually looking at what was shown. There's more complexity in it while being more accessible than what we have now. It's just that the complexity comes into picking the right suit for the job, rather than picking the right skills to make your suit super powerful.
So, benefits of the system shown to us: 1) More roles, no massive power advantage through simply having more SP (not as massive as now, anyway) 2) If you've invested in a suit you can always use it, even if you've been knocked down to using militia gear 3) Every player is fulfilling a legitimate role on the battlefield, no more useless noobs in frontline suits. 4) Clearly defined roles without power differentials built in means things are easier to balance, especially with weapons being locked to certain suits 5) Due to number 4 and the meta levels system, better matchmaking
Benefits of the current system: 1) Complex. Well, it's hard to understand why you should train one thing or another. Not really an advantage. I'd argue that having a larger number of suits balanced against each other makes the system more complex and interesting from a gameplay perspective. At least it LOOKS complex. It's also not very eve-like. If Eve had Dust's progression I wouldn't pick a ship to fill a certain role, I'd pick the ship that is the "best". 2) The super rich can use their wealth to stomp all over the poors, since they don't care if they lose a proto suit. The suit being inherently more powerful before modules are brought into play means the noob doesn't even have a chance. Not much of a benefit.
It's not the tieracide that has any of us concerned. Tieracide has no bearing on the cost of the suit just like how tieracide has no bearing on the cost of a Skiff, Mackinaw, or a Hulk. What should have a bearing on the cost in Legion is the type of materials and the amount of each material needed to produce these suits. Since these suits are extremely small compared to even an Eve ship like the Rifter (size of a Boeing 747) or a Gallente shuttle (approx. a Learjet 45), manufacturing them in bulk should be no problem especially if Eve players are the ones who will handle the production side of things while Legionaries handle the harvesting side of things. Eve players already have 11 years experience in manufacturing in bulk and on the cheap with as little resources as possible to maximize their profit margins. And when you throw in market competition between two or more sellers, the price of these suits will certainly remain low and relatively steady. There would be fluctuations in price at first but then the prices will settle as manufacturers streamline their productivity.
Overall, suits should cost something. They are like ships in Eve after all. They have a shield, they have armor, they have slot arrangements, they have CPU and they have PG and they are likely to get rigs as well. They are essentially Eve ships in suit form.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2198
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
The suit will cost something, the modules, equipment and weapons. Tiericide is pretty relevant to the question I was responding to. "Why not always use your best suit?". Because there will be no "best suit". Once you've established that, then all you have to do is take the value of a dropsuit and push that into the value of modules. The only truly free suit will probably be the basic light / medium / heavy frames. The others will have modules etc to pay for.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8462
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:The suit will cost something, the modules, equipment and weapons. Tiericide is pretty relevant to the question I was responding to. "Why not always use your best suit?". Because there will be no "best suit". Once you've established that, then all you have to do is take the value of a dropsuit and push that into the value of modules. The only truly free suit will probably be the basic light / medium / heavy frames. The others will have modules etc to pay for.
If that's the case, then why do Eve ships cost something at all? There is no "best" ship in Eve either.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2199
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Because the player in Eve can exist without a ship, and because ships are part of a deep resource cycle. They have a cost because players make them from their own time. Some guy mines veldspar for a few hours and sells the results of that work for what he considers fair, then buyer takes that and combines it with other minerals to make a ship. The floor cost of the ship is the purchase price of the minerals. You can also build your own ships if you can't find them on the market / have the isk for them. That's not the case with dropsuits.
And the biggest difference, dropsuits are lost dozens of times in a night. Nobody loses more than a few ships in a weekend unless they're really trying to. Most ships are owned for a very long period of time which is where the emotional connection to the ship comes in. You don't really get that with something you have to replace dozens of times in a night. This is something that was talked about at Eve Vegas.
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1972
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Posted - 2014.05.10 01:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
All Dropsuits should have BPOs.
EVERYTHING available should have BPOs.
All BPOs should have a Bill of Materials
Industry needs to be a part of Legion as much as it is a part of Eve.
I agree with the title of the thread in the belief that you are referring to BPOs as they are in Dust (which I always thought was a stupid, exploitable idea anyway).
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
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Posted - 2014.05.10 01:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Because the player in Eve can exist without a ship...
[...]
And the biggest difference, dropsuits are lost dozens of times in a night. Nobody loses more than a few ships in a weekend unless they're really trying to. Most ships are owned for a very long period of time which is where the emotional connection to the ship comes in. You don't really get that with something you have to replace dozens of times in a night. This is something that was talked about at Eve Vegas.
I can see your point, but keep in mind you're assuming Legion won't eventually have some kind of free-roam system in place where players can travel from point A to point B without needing to get into a battle-ready suit much like how Capsuleers in Eve don't need a ship if they can get from one station to another in a pod.
But if you're right and if dropsuits are to ever become BPOs, then vehicles should remain as consumables... period. Vehicles, especially in the hands of not-so-stupid pilots, don't die as often as a dropsuit and just like Eve ships they would likely have a deep resource cycle.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2177
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Posted - 2014.05.10 01:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:All Dropsuits should have BPOs.
EVERYTHING available should have BPOs.
All BPOs should have a Bill of Materials
Industry needs to be a part of Legion as much as it is a part of Eve.
I agree with the title of the thread in the belief that you are referring to BPOs as they are in Dust (which I always thought was a stupid, exploitable idea anyway).
That's what we pretty much meant.
Well, faction, deadspace, and other things like that shouldn't have one.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1972
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Posted - 2014.05.10 01:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:All Dropsuits should have BPOs.
EVERYTHING available should have BPOs.
All BPOs should have a Bill of Materials
Industry needs to be a part of Legion as much as it is a part of Eve.
I agree with the title of the thread in the belief that you are referring to BPOs as they are in Dust (which I always thought was a stupid, exploitable idea anyway). That's what we pretty much meant. Well, faction, deadspace, and other things like that shouldn't have one. Good, that is what I was hoping.
Also, they should get LP Store (or rare loot drop) BPCs.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
951
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Posted - 2014.05.10 01:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Because the player in Eve can exist without a ship, and because ships are part of a deep resource cycle. They have a cost because players make them from their own time. Some guy mines veldspar for a few hours and sells the results of that work for what he considers fair, then buyer takes that and combines it with other minerals to make a ship. The floor cost of the ship is the purchase price of the minerals. You can also build your own ships if you can't find them on the market / have the isk for them. That's not the case with dropsuits.
And the biggest difference, dropsuits are lost dozens of times in a night. Nobody loses more than a few ships in a weekend unless they're really trying to. Most ships are owned for a very long period of time which is where the emotional connection to the ship comes in. You don't really get that with something you have to replace dozens of times in a night. This is something that was talked about at Eve Vegas. Yeah, I remember when I lost my first ship, an Arbitrator (Amarr cruiser, big deal for a noob) that I had spent days mining for, I was devastated - by means of contrast, when I lost my first dropsuit I respawned and promptly lost about ten more.
I do sometimes get attached to particular fits though. Fits that I hit certain milestones in (first MVP, first 2000wp match etc), fits that are totally rubbish but still fun, fits that I just can't get rid of.
That, I believe, is the reasoning behind the BPO dropsuit thing.
And ultimately, despite not making a ton of sense lore wise, if the module costs are balanced right, it shouldn't make that much difference to the economy, or to the risk / reward ratio of using the more advanced suits. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad.
2839
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I can see your point, but keep in mind you're assuming Legion won't eventually have some kind of free-roam system in place where players can travel from point A to point B without needing to get into a battle-ready suit much like how Capsuleers in Eve don't need a ship if they can get from one station to another in a pod.
But if you're right and if dropsuits are to ever become BPOs, then vehicles should remain as consumables... period. Vehicles, especially in the hands of not-so-stupid pilots, don't die as often as a dropsuit and just like Eve ships they would likely have a deep resource cycle.
Agreed, vehicles should never be BPO. I'd love to see industrial vehicles later on too. And MTAC that mines for example would be cool!
Industry in legion would be pretty cool. It's going to be a PC game after all... Not as limited by the UI environment in this case.
To thread: I think BPO suits comes from the fact that all modules will be salvaged. I don't think they intend to make dropsuits part of the salvage tree. You have you BPO that you load salvaged modules into, which are then destroyed in battle, able to be salvaged by players... Completing the resource cycle. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ryder Azorria wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Because the player in Eve can exist without a ship, and because ships are part of a deep resource cycle. They have a cost because players make them from their own time. Some guy mines veldspar for a few hours and sells the results of that work for what he considers fair, then buyer takes that and combines it with other minerals to make a ship. The floor cost of the ship is the purchase price of the minerals. You can also build your own ships if you can't find them on the market / have the isk for them. That's not the case with dropsuits.
And the biggest difference, dropsuits are lost dozens of times in a night. Nobody loses more than a few ships in a weekend unless they're really trying to. Most ships are owned for a very long period of time which is where the emotional connection to the ship comes in. You don't really get that with something you have to replace dozens of times in a night. This is something that was talked about at Eve Vegas. Yeah, I remember when I lost my first ship, an Arbitrator (Amarr cruiser, big deal for a noob) that I had spent days mining for, I was devastated - by means of contrast, when I lost my first dropsuit I respawned and promptly lost about ten more. I do sometimes get attached to particular fits though. Fits that I hit certain milestones in (first MVP, first 2000wp match etc), fits that are totally rubbish but still fun, fits that I just can't get rid of. That, I believe, is the reasoning behind the BPO dropsuit thing. And ultimately, despite not making a ton of sense lore wise, if the module costs are balanced right, it shouldn't make that much difference to the economy, or to the risk / reward ratio of using the more advanced suits. EDIT: This is assuming I understood the progression presentation correctly and all suits are effectively becoming standard suits, with a relatively flat overall power curve as you get more specialised.
If that's the case, the only thing that would be a BPO is a dropsuit. Nothing more.
Everything else such as weapons, modules, equipment, including vehicles like dropships, LAVs, MAVs, HAVs, fighters, MCCs, Warbarges, plus installations like CRUs, supply depots, and automated turrets need to cost materials to produce. This part is non-negotiable.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Universal Decimator
Interstellar Legionnaires
34
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
BPO's MUST STAY !!! We paid for them with lots of real money !!! IF they are not there than a hole lota people will walso NOT BE !!! |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Universal Decimator wrote:BPO's MUST STAY !!! We paid for them with lots of real money !!! IF they are not there than a hole lota people will also NOT BE !!!
Um... wrong topic. We're not talking about those kind of BPOs.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
951
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote: Yeah, I remember when I lost my first ship, an Arbitrator (Amarr cruiser, big deal for a noob) that I had spent days mining for, I was devastated - by means of contrast, when I lost my first dropsuit I respawned and promptly lost about ten more.
I do sometimes get attached to particular fits though. Fits that I hit certain milestones in (first MVP, first 2000wp match etc), fits that are totally rubbish but still fun, fits that I just can't get rid of.
That, I believe, is the reasoning behind the BPO dropsuit thing.
And ultimately, despite not making a ton of sense lore wise, if the module costs are balanced right, it shouldn't make that much difference to the economy, or to the risk / reward ratio of using the more advanced suits.
EDIT: This is assuming I understood the progression presentation correctly and all suits are effectively becoming standard suits, with a relatively flat overall power curve as you get more specialised.
If that's the case, the only thing that would be a BPO is a dropsuit. Nothing more. Everything else such as weapons, modules, equipment, including vehicles like dropships, LAVs, MAVs, HAVs, fighters, MCCs, Warbarges, plus installations like CRUs, supply depots, and automated turrets need to cost materials to produce. This part is non-negotiable. Yeah, so basically how it is already. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
NVM
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
This is an edit BTW.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Universal Decimator
Interstellar Legionnaires
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ok so if things like weapons and tanks cost materials to produce, than if I have a BPO original for a caldari LAV than it should give me a considerable discount on the materials needed to produce it, right ? Am I under standing this or not ? |
Universal Decimator
Interstellar Legionnaires
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:59:00 -
[33] - Quote
Universal Decimator wrote:Ok so if things like weapons and tanks cost materials to produce, than if I have a BPO original for a caldari LAV than it should give me a considerable discount on the materials needed to produce it, right ? Am I under standing this or not ?
Because that is what it is supposed to be in the first place. A Blue print on how to make something and not an infinite item. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 02:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Universal Decimator wrote:Ok so if things like weapons and tanks cost materials to produce, than if I have a BPO original for a caldari LAV than it should give me a considerable discount on the materials needed to produce it, right ? Am I under standing this or not ?
No no no no...
That's not what I'm talking about. When it comes to AUR-type BPOs that are weapons, modules, and vehicles being transferred over into Legion from Dust, those BPOs should remain as BPOs. You'll just be the lucky bastard who has them much like how some lucky bastards in Eve have Tech 2 BPOs right now.
As for the AUR-type BPOs that are dropsuits, it's very likely they will become cosmetic items that might be separate dropsuits or be applied to the built-in dropsuits in Legion since suits in Legion are likely to become BPOs anyways thus making your AUR-BPO suits kind of redundant.
EDIT: For the record, the very few players in Eve who happen to have Tech 2 BPOs still require materials to produce but they don't need to undergo any of the invention steps needed to produce a Tech 2 item like how it is now.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Universal Decimator
Interstellar Legionnaires
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 02:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Universal Decimator wrote:Universal Decimator wrote:Ok so if things like weapons and tanks cost materials to produce, than if I have a BPO original for a caldari LAV than it should give me a considerable discount on the materials needed to produce it, right ? Am I under standing this or not ? Because that is what it is supposed to be in the first place. A Blue print on how to make something and not an infinite item.
Ether way, It is something special that I have because I played DUST 514 and others will not have. Unless they purchase it or trade for it as well. |
Dunce Masterson
Savage Bullet
99
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 02:30:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin is right about every thing and I completely agree with all his points.
This post is bad because in EVE online if your trying to compare drop suits to ships its already a failed attempt to have the drop suits not be BPO's as the ships can be considered permanent assets like BPO's once the pilot understands the game they can run missions without loosing their ships with a skill point investment so investing skill points in drop suits to unlock more BPO's makes sense and having a constant/fixed foundation to build on is better then being at the mercy of the player market supply and demand.
It would be nice if dust didn't have the drop suit tiers it would separate those who depend of gear from those who are better players i would much rather see every one fighting with the same level suits and still trying then seeing one side give up and use their militia suits, now I am all for tiered modules and weapons this would separate the new player from the old ones.
I don't even know why I bother.
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tander09
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
100
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 02:32:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Because the player in Eve can exist without a ship, and because ships are part of a deep resource cycle. They have a cost because players make them from their own time. Some guy mines veldspar for a few hours and sells the results of that work for what he considers fair, then buyer takes that and combines it with other minerals to make a ship. The floor cost of the ship is the purchase price of the minerals. You can also build your own ships if you can't find them on the market / have the isk for them. That's not the case with dropsuits.
And the biggest difference, dropsuits are lost dozens of times in a night. Nobody loses more than a few ships in a weekend unless they're really trying to. Most ships are owned for a very long period of time which is where the emotional connection to the ship comes in. You don't really get that with something you have to replace dozens of times in a night. This is something that was talked about at Eve Vegas. THIS!
let us transfer our BPOs,stats,gear,ISK and SP to legion pl0x!
Try and steal my BPOs. I dare ya.
AMARRIAN4LYFE
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Universal Decimator
Interstellar Legionnaires
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 02:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Universal Decimator wrote:Universal Decimator wrote:Universal Decimator wrote:Ok so if things like weapons and tanks cost materials to produce, than if I have a BPO original for a caldari LAV than it should give me a considerable discount on the materials needed to produce it, right ? Am I under standing this or not ? Because that is what it is supposed to be in the first place. A Blue print on how to make something and not an infinite item. Ether way, It is something special that I have because I played DUST 514 and others will not have. Unless they purchase it or trade for it as well.
Also it must give some very small advantage in the game and be a little more than just a cosmetic item, as it was in dust. This time perhaps balance BPO originals more so that it is not desirable to abuse them so much.
Not sure what you guys are talking about but the new talk about LEGION and character transfers is very exciting to me. I am starting to get interested in LEGION. I am saving for a new PC, perhaps and will try to learn more about EVE as I still have my 60 day free thing from the collectors edition. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8463
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 03:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
Universal Decimator wrote:Universal Decimator wrote:Universal Decimator wrote:Universal Decimator wrote:Ok so if things like weapons and tanks cost materials to produce, than if I have a BPO original for a caldari LAV than it should give me a considerable discount on the materials needed to produce it, right ? Am I under standing this or not ? Because that is what it is supposed to be in the first place. A Blue print on how to make something and not an infinite item. Ether way, It is something special that I have because I played DUST 514 and others will not have. Unless they purchase it or trade for it as well. Also it must give some very small advantage in the game and be a little more than just a cosmetic item, as it was in dust. This time perhaps balance BPO originals more so that it is not desirable to abuse them so much. Not sure what you guys are talking about but the new talk about LEGION and character transfers is very exciting to me. I am starting to get interested in LEGION. I am saving for a new PC, perhaps and will try to learn more about EVE as I still have my 60 day free thing from the collectors edition.
If you're interested in putting together a computer, here is a link.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=161527
Google can also help you in finding a ready-to-play rig for under $500.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3354
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 09:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Okay a few things.
1. Better suits that are unlocked will only be more specialized. Imagine if you just took out all of the standard and advanced suits in Dust and only had prototype suits. Now add two different types of each prototype suit that fit different gameplay styles and you have Legion.
2. Just because they don't cost anything doesn't mean they won't be worth anything to the player. With the re-pricing of items, the best fittings will still cost you quite a bit of isk. The whole point is to allow players to run whatever suit they want to to make the game feel more diverse and alive. Right now in Dust we see the majority of players running standard or mlt suits because they can't afford to run anything else. This makes the games unbalanced because the players that are willing to run their expensive suits can easily dominate a team that are not willing to run those suits. It make the game boring and stale if you're only killing the same starter suits over and over again.
3. Speaking of balance, the new NPE and sandbox PVE will allow new players to get their sp and understanding up before they get into PVP. Have you ever played a match where at least 10 players on each side were running their best gear and going at it? These are by far the most fun and intense matches.
I support Legion BPO suits, but I wouldn't ever support Dust BPO suits. Dust high tier suits have an obvious advantage over the lower tiers, but Legion suits will all be role specific, meaning that suits won't be better than the previous suits, but will be better at doing one thing or another. The basic suits will just be average at everything.
And finally, if these suits won't be any better or worse (just more specialized), why would they be priced differently? Exactly, they wouldn't, which means that putting a price on them would be stupid since you would have to pay the exact same price every single time.
The reason prototype suits seem so valuable is that they cost 7x more than advanced, and have better slot loadouts and pg/cpu. If there was nothing for them to be compared to that makes them obviously better, then they lose their value.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Dunce Masterson
Savage Bullet
100
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 13:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Okay a few things.
1. Better suits that are unlocked will only be more specialized. Imagine if you just took out all of the standard and advanced suits in Dust and only had prototype suits. Now add two different types of each prototype suit that fit different gameplay styles and you have Legion.
2. Just because they don't cost anything doesn't mean they won't be worth anything to the player. With the re-pricing of items, the best fittings will still cost you quite a bit of isk. The whole point is to allow players to run whatever suit they want to to make the game feel more diverse and alive. Right now in Dust we see the majority of players running standard or mlt suits because they can't afford to run anything else. This makes the games unbalanced because the players that are willing to run their expensive suits can easily dominate a team that are not willing to run those suits. It make the game boring and stale if you're only killing the same starter suits over and over again.
3. Speaking of balance, the new NPE and sandbox PVE will allow new players to get their sp and understanding up before they get into PVP. Have you ever played a match where at least 10 players on each side were running their best gear and going at it? These are by far the most fun and intense matches.
I support Legion BPO suits, but I wouldn't ever support Dust BPO suits. Dust high tier suits have an obvious advantage over the lower tiers, but Legion suits will all be role specific, meaning that suits won't be better than the previous suits, but will be better at doing one thing or another. The basic suits will just be average at everything.
And finally, if these suits won't be any better or worse (just more specialized), why would they be priced differently? Exactly, they wouldn't, which means that putting a price on them would be stupid since you would have to pay the exact same price every single time.
The reason prototype suits seem so valuable is that they cost 7x more than advanced, and have better slot loadouts and pg/cpu. If there was nothing for them to be compared to that makes them obviously better, then they lose their value.
+1 couldn't say it any better and you are absolutely right I hate matches where the other team gives up and only uses their starter suits its to easy and I hate it more then loosing.
I don't even know why I bother.
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8471
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 13:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Dunce Masterson wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Okay a few things.
1. Better suits that are unlocked will only be more specialized. Imagine if you just took out all of the standard and advanced suits in Dust and only had prototype suits. Now add two different types of each prototype suit that fit different gameplay styles and you have Legion.
2. Just because they don't cost anything doesn't mean they won't be worth anything to the player. With the re-pricing of items, the best fittings will still cost you quite a bit of isk. The whole point is to allow players to run whatever suit they want to to make the game feel more diverse and alive. Right now in Dust we see the majority of players running standard or mlt suits because they can't afford to run anything else. This makes the games unbalanced because the players that are willing to run their expensive suits can easily dominate a team that are not willing to run those suits. It make the game boring and stale if you're only killing the same starter suits over and over again.
3. Speaking of balance, the new NPE and sandbox PVE will allow new players to get their sp and understanding up before they get into PVP. Have you ever played a match where at least 10 players on each side were running their best gear and going at it? These are by far the most fun and intense matches.
I support Legion BPO suits, but I wouldn't ever support Dust BPO suits. Dust high tier suits have an obvious advantage over the lower tiers, but Legion suits will all be role specific, meaning that suits won't be better than the previous suits, but will be better at doing one thing or another. The basic suits will just be average at everything.
And finally, if these suits won't be any better or worse (just more specialized), why would they be priced differently? Exactly, they wouldn't, which means that putting a price on them would be stupid since you would have to pay the exact same price every single time.
The reason prototype suits seem so valuable is that they cost 7x more than advanced, and have better slot loadouts and pg/cpu. If there was nothing for them to be compared to that makes them obviously better, then they lose their value. +1 couldn't say it any better and you are absolutely right I hate matches where the other team gives up and only uses their starter suits its to easy and I hate it more then loosing.
Looks like the pro-BPO crowd has a solid argument here. But again, let's not forget that only the suits should be BPOs. Everything else such as vehicles, weapons, installations, etc. should cost something. Be it resources or ISK.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
2595
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 13:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
I wanted to contribute to this thread
"Losing your dropsuit should not hurt" - CCP Z
This song is dedicated to CCP Z: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU-s2yWgEI8
R.I.P. Dust 514. You were a beta. May 2014.
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Nod Keras
Thief Guild
105
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 14:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
nice link
Can i teabak ur RE?
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1976
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 14:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
@Maken
No, everything should have both a BPO and an associated cost. The Isk cost should roughly reflect the Isk cost of the materials necessary to make the item in question.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8474
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 14:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:@Maken
No, everything should have both a BPO and an associated cost. The Isk cost should roughly reflect the Isk cost of the materials necessary to make the item in question.
Please present a strong argument supporting this, please. <---- Notice I said "please" twice so you know I'm asking politely.
PS: Fleet of a thousand Ibises. Enough said.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Selinate deux
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 14:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
And a large reason for this is the fact that once ships are destroyed, things in the cargo hold (such as PLEX, BPOs, and anything else) can be lost. Not exactly sure how they would implement that in Legion, unless they just make everything as things that are carried on your suit...
Since they showed a transfer of consciousnesses instead of flying through space itself, there's not much of another way currently to mimic that. |
Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2593
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 14:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:@Maken
No, everything should have both a BPO and an associated cost. The Isk cost should roughly reflect the Isk cost of the materials necessary to make the item in question.
Currently there isn't industry planned though. But I think they should really enable eve players to also produce our stuff in addition to us looting stuff in Sandbox mode.
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14859
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 15:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ill sum it up quickly it as possible.
How quickly annoying it would be if you had to re-create attributes of your character every time you died?
Suits are being shifted to become more of your character than an module so things like cosmetics comes to mind.
The feeling of loss and reservation can be kept with modules you apply to the suits but the admiration for what the suit becomes only grows if the player gets to keep it instead of losing it every time they die. Espeically if its a cosmetic with limited life span.
I mean how many of you want to see the quafe suit fielded more often? Asoma? Oblivion? Hazard? there is a whole list of suits I refuse to wear because even though I have a supply of them and they have similar stats to other suits the fact is I cannot get anymore of them. So the most I can do is wear them in the warbarge to show off and thats it.
This goes back to the whole if you cannot afford to lose it dont fly it. BPO suits would alleviate the fear of losing special items earned or granted or obtained as well and would help increase player emotional investment into the suits.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8475
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 15:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ill sum it up quickly it as possible.
How quickly annoying it would be if you had to re-create attributes of your character every time you died?
Suits are being shifted to become more of your character than an module so things like cosmetics comes to mind.
The feeling of loss and reservation can be kept with modules you apply to the suits but the admiration for what the suit becomes only grows if the player gets to keep it instead of losing it every time they die. Espeically if its a cosmetic with limited life span.
I mean how many of you want to see the quafe suit fielded more often? Asoma? Oblivion? Hazard? there is a whole list of suits I refuse to wear because even though I have a supply of them and they have similar stats to other suits the fact is I cannot get anymore of them. So the most I can do is wear them in the warbarge to show off and thats it.
This goes back to the whole if you cannot afford to lose it dont fly it. BPO suits would alleviate the fear of losing special items earned or granted or obtained as well and would help increase player emotional investment into the suits.
I still miss my 'Kindred' Scout's sexy red and white color scheme as well as the 'Solstice' scout's majestic white and gold.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
2595
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 15:41:00 -
[51] - Quote
Please make sure that my quafe assault ck.0 and quafe scout gk.0 is transferred accordingly.
R.I.P. Dust 514. You were a beta. May 2014.
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
443
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 16:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
You got the wrong song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZRCIrTgQc git gud nub
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
957
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 16:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Yet again CCP Guard has y'all beat: Killing is Just a Means of Communication EDIT: Holy crap, how the heck did I screw up the BBCode that badly |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1976
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 17:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:@Maken
No, everything should have both a BPO and an associated cost. The Isk cost should roughly reflect the Isk cost of the materials necessary to make the item in question. Please present a strong argument supporting this, please. <---- Notice I said "please" twice so you know I'm asking politely. PS: Fleet of a thousand Ibises. Enough said. Every Ship in Eve that isn't a Rookie Ship (i.e. Ibises etc) has a BPO/BPC and an associated material cost. It should be the same in Legion, though in place of ships, it should be Dropsuits.
Consistency.
Also, I will agree that you were being polite by asking please twice, though you were also being a smartass by citing Rookie Ships.
Argument need be no stronger.
@Aikuchi Tomaru
It is still early enough in Legion development that if we present a strong, concerted argument for the inclusion of Industry, we may very well be able to convince CCP to do so from square one.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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