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TechMechMeds
KLEENEX INC.
3287
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Posted - 2014.05.07 11:16:00 -
[61] - Quote
George Moros wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Kovinis Sparagas wrote:I'd say just go and copy-paste EVE skill tree. This game lasts for 11 years, and don't confuse new players. Also it will speed up Legion development if you don't need to invent new stuff (and let's be honest - we want it in our HDD as fast as possible) Every time I start thinking I'm beyond being shocked at the things people say, someone goes and reminds me that sometimes, you just can't anticipate what will come out of another person's mouth (or their keyboard). Kovinis Sparagas wrote:EVE ... don't confuse new players. You might want to take a look here and here. Totally friendly to new people...  EVE's skill system for sure isn't the most noob friendly the world has ever witnessed. However, there are a few things you need to be aware of. First, the "inaccessibility" of EVE to noobs isn't just because of the complex skill system. I'd say that skill system isn't even on top of the list in that regard. Second, you simply cannot create a skill system that will be instantly graspable even to some halfwit, and still be able to last for a decade. This leads to a simple question: What is the "target audience" for EVE: Legion? Does CCP really want to compete with titles like COD and BF, or do they want to attract a somewhat different audience? One that can withstand the pain of reading a couple of wiki pages occasionally, in order to make an informed choice in a game they want to play.
I like the way in eve that'd by limiting people as newbs, it basically forces them to setup their income and spend time looking at everything. The tutorial is decent as well.
Well that was fun
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Timothy Reaper
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
902
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Posted - 2014.05.07 11:45:00 -
[62] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:I watched the whole EVE: Legion progression presentation. It was well thought out and gives us everything we've been asking for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxhrGVv0NuQFor those of you who don't get it, I recommend you watch it again. CCP Z explains the reasoning behind everything. There is no excuse for pretending the planed progression system doesn't make sense when every part of it is explained to you.
I understand, but I don't agree. From the start of the presentation he kept talking about his experience, not player feedback. One person does not a focus group make. Plus (correct me if I'm wrong) does he start using the word "sexy" at around 8:45? That sounds as if he's putting appearances before gameplay, an attitude that has caused the game market to be flooded with mediocrity.
Honestly, I agree that they should go with a dropsuit version of ISIS. Would the CPM push for this? Maybe CCP will listen to them this time.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3133
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
After I reviewed the DUST 514 - Progression presentation again I see where CCP Z says they got rid of the 5 skill level system. This is good and bad. Simply speaking, in cases where the skill simply unlocked items, it is good, and in cases where the skill gave a bonus per level it is VERY bad.
The Problem Z was fixing:
In the old skill system the first skill in the first tree was Dropsuit Command. This skill did nothing for you at level 4 and 5. It could literally be a waist of Skill Points. It was a trap that many new players fell into. There were also skills than only unlocked stuff, so that there was no benefit offered by these skills at levels 2 and 4.
Having items unlocked by a 5 level skill system only works well if you also have a bonus attached to each of those skills. But it is problematic to come up with so many bonuses. CCP ZGÇÖs Item Progression tree solves this problem. (It could also be a strong skeleton to support a much better skill system, if we put some meet on those bones, but I will get into that later.)
The Importance of the 5 Level Skill system:
CCP ZGÇÖs proposal as presented is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In an attempt to fix an irritating problem, CCP Z tossed out the most important thing that made DUST 514 better than any other FPS game. He threw out the thing that made allotting skill points interesting. He ditched the thing that gave new players a fighting chance against veteran players.
The 5 point skill system was a mini game within the game. Let me give you an example. I was trying to fit a Proto weapon and a bunch of Proto modules onto a Standard Sentinel suit. I found I could not fit a Sidearm or Grenades, and although I could do without the Sidearm, I needed Grenades for clearing equipment. I was only a few points short on CPU from being able to equip Grenades. I had level 4 in Electronics and for a bit over 700,000 skill points I could level it to level 5 and equip the grenades, but that is a lot of skill points. So I did some rooting around in the skill tree, and realized that if I levelled Heavy Weapon Operation to 4 I could equip the Grenades while spending less than half the Skill Points that it would have taken to level Electronics to 5. I felt extremely satisfied. I had solved the puzzle! That is what makes the 5 level Skill system fun!
The 5 Level Skill system is also fundamental in helping new players versus veteran players, and is why EVE Online has survived so long. A new player can level a skill to 3 with only a small Skill Point investment and get over half the potential benefit from that skill. With each level costing twice what the previous level cost, it is a system of diminishing returns. For a veteran with skill points to burn, levelling a skill to 5 to get that little bit of advantage is worth it, while for a new player they can get a lot out of their limited skill points by training many skills up to 3.
The Problems with CCP ZGÇÖs Item Progression:
It lacks complexity. It looks like a World of Warcraft Skill Tree. It does not allow character customisation to the same degree as the current system. It focuses simply on unlocking items, and gives no ability to make your self better at any aspect of the game than anyone else, other than changing your fitting. It destroys the mini game of trying to optimize your skill plan!
How to fix CCP ZGÇÖs Proposed plan:
The Item Progression tree is actually a good framework on which to hang a skill system. It gets rid of the problem of skills such as Dropsuit Command which had no purpose other than unlocking items.
However a 5 level Skill system should be added onto it. Not for the item unlocking nodes. Leave them the way CCP Z proposed them. But each item that you unlock should also give you access to 5 Level Skills that make you better at using that items. These would be PC and CPU optimization skills, Reload Speed, cooldown reductions, reduced sway/kick/dispersion, etc.
The optimization Skills could start at the point in the Item Progression where they unlock the racial specific dropsuits, so that new players would not have to deal with the extra complexity on day 1. And even when they get that far down the tree they can continue to ignore the skills and just continue unlocking stuff if they have not yet learned the importance of these optimization skills.
There should also be a tree for Personal Enhancement Skills. These skills would not be tied to a specific equipment, but would be general skills that your character learns. These would include: Engineering and Electronics so you can get more PC and CPU out of your suit; Hacking, so you can learn tricks that will let you hack stuff slightly faster; Profile Dampening, so you can learn how to turn down your toons and walk on tip toe, so you are not as easily detected. You get the idea.
Conclusion:
Grafting a 5 level Skill system onto CCP ZGÇÖs Item Progressions framework would create a system which is better than what we have now, and is substantially better than what he is proposing. CCP ZGÇÖs system is a better way to unlock items. There should be two types of 5 level Skills. The first would be Skills ties to an item, once it is unlocked, which make you better at using that item. The Second are Personal Enhancement Skills that benefit you regardless of what items you have equipped.
In this hybrid system a player could go directly for unlocking as many items as they can for versatility, or they can choose to specialize, unlocking only the items for the fit they want to play, and then putting Skill Points into skills that optimize those items, or make their character better at the tasks that role performs.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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George Moros
Balkan Express Squad
393
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
@Fox Gaden:
I very much disliked DUST skills which had no other purpose other than unlocking higher tier gear. Especially so due to the 1/3/5 unlock mechanic which made leveling to level 2 and 4 completely meaningless. However, I disagree with you that it's difficult to "invent" a built-in bonus for each skill. Even a 1% bonus in some uncritical attribute is still an incentive to level up a skill. For instance, Dropsuit Command skill could give you a 1% movement speed bonus (per level) to all dropsuits, and you can simply reduce all dropsuit base speeds by 5%, to make things more-less same as before.
I am too strongly against skills that do nothing except unlock higher tier gear. This smells too much like a WoW-clone skill system, which I strongly detest.
I can't shake the impression that devs are wasting their precious time trying to completely rethink systems that were at their core good, rather then rethinking systems that were in dire need of that.
Pulvereus ergo queritor.
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5508
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:I watched the whole EVE: Legion progression presentation. It was well thought out and gives us everything we've been asking for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxhrGVv0NuQFor those of you who don't get it, I recommend you watch it again. CCP Z explains the reasoning behind everything. There is no excuse for pretending the planed progression system doesn't make sense when every part of it is explained to you.
I think someone needs to point out the difference between "I don't understand" and "it makes no sense".
People aren't saying the skill system makes no sense because they can't figure out how it's meant to work. They're saying it makes no sense because they think it's a poorly-designed system.
I'm still making up my mind about it, but I'm hoping that it's not going to be shipping entirely as-is, because there are some pretty serious flaws when considering that it's supposed to be part of New Eden. |
Mr m4gic
XSKvLLX
59
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Posted - 2014.06.02 14:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
just make it 1 game..............................with all skills and abilitys including stuff in Valkyrie dust 514 and EVE, available 2 1 character, woohooo!! now as a small and lonely EVE pilot i can make cash by fighting for the larger corps or factions as a foot soldier tank driver or fighter pilot, then i can bugger off in my ship and explore an uninhabited planet find relics or technology maybe a hidden ship that is not on the market, and has no release pictures,
i can track down a bounty in my ship stalk him/her to a planet
then plow through a jungle trying to kill the mofo, or set up an ambush with a pal.
trying to separate the games is stupid,
making all this stuff as a new update to EVE will NOT change it for the worse, old players will still be able to play and earn money the way they want know and love plus have new exciting ways, to take in the beauty of new eden.
you will draw in new players and make more money,
it was your vision u just screwed it up by trying to make it into several games when really it is just 1 game. EVE!!!
Have you seen my baseball??
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Dexter307
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
1587
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Posted - 2014.06.02 14:41:00 -
[67] - Quote
TBH having all dropsuits be BPO would break immersion for me.
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