True, I have ever since about 1.4 appreciated that there are some tankers who go above and beyond, I know you are one of the few, but after dealing with Spkr, sTaki and their little band of tryhards for well over a year now, you cannot demy a large majprity of the tanking community are just after eaay kills. I whooly understand not all of them are like that and have had the privilege of working with 1 or 2, but those of you who really play with your team are few and far between.

Masad, of course the Missile Tank is mostly AV, but once again it was stipulated, no stacking, so your kind of loadingnthe question don't you think? Also I would like to ask why you think it's unacceptable for an AV logi to die 8+ times fighting tanks, as it stands AV is a suicide run, with 500 HP/s just mere suppression doesn't work, because you rep back in less than 15 seconds. Once again your forcing us to have to outright kill you just to get a minutes breathing room.

If you are redline suiciding yourself in a tank, you really are just stupid, I will talk to you about sacrifice as much as damned well want, as for my fits, no unlike you suggest I do not stack EHP, most of my Triage Logi is speed and scanning and hacking, using just 3 modules that effect my tank (1 of them negatively), no doubt about though infamtry modules are just as screwed, in most cases EHP modules provide more benifits and that needs changing, we need to encourage more variety in infamtry fits.

I said no stacking because whenever we stack any modules the AV community cries OP and unfair.

Often times the only way to deal with those deep-in-the-redline cowards is to go out there and kill yourself and hopefully take them with you. If I don't go out there, they will just stay there pounding our team safely from the distance with no risk and all reward.
So you think I'm stupid because I take care of the guy that is hated by the whole community? I may be stupid, yes, but I do it out of willingness to try to help. But yes, I'm stupid, if I was smart, I would only play for my own enjoyment, not anyone else's.

When you are using AV, you cannot expect to go take the HAV head on, you gotta use the environment as your cover. And I was in a match yesterday where there was ADV minmando pounding my friend's triple rep Maddy (I don't use triple rep myself) with swarms and he made the observation that if that minmando would ever get 5 volleys off, it would kill him, but fortunately that minmando was stupid enough to stay out in the open every single time, so he was dead before he could fire 5 times. If he had taken elevated position, he could have easily gotten 5 shots off if my friend would have remained within his range. So if you engage the HAV where it is at it's strongest, you are expected to lose. Engage it where the HAV is at it's weakest and you will come out on top almost every time.

The reduced lock-on range almost forces a Swarmer to take the HAV on head-on, whether he wants to or not. Against any kind of skilled HAV driver, he will inevitably have to stray out in the open in order to re-aquire the lock after each volley, particularly if the HAV is making any effort whatsoever to evade.

If the HAV bolts or tries to take cover, the AV with the Swarms HAS to chase him in order to keep the damage up before he has a chance to repair, otherwise his time, effort, and ammo has been essentially wasted, while the HAV returns at full strength, like nothing happened.

And, unlike your friend in the HAV, the AV with the Swarms is very vulnerable to regular Infantry, Snipers, Cloaked Shotty Scouts, etc. (and his first volley pinpoints his location to all them) so taking an elevated position is not necessarily the wisest course of action, and would only have really worked if you're friend in the HAV remained within his range (which is unlikely).

Sure, engaging an HAV where it is at it's weakest is good advice, but it is also easier said than done, usually requiring the AV to put himself in harms way, with a weapon that is useless against the majority of the enemy team (i.e. the other 15 guys that AREN'T inside the HAV he's trying to take down).

In their current state, I'd say that Swarms are little more than a nuisance to anyone but the worst driver in the crappiest of vehicles, and nowhere near worth the investment of SP or ISK required to even give them a chance at being a viable form of AV.

Sorry, allow me to clarify:

Anything less than Proto Swarms, with full stacked Damage Mods, the extra damage bonus from a Minmando Suit, and the assistance of two or three other Dedicated AV, all working together against an inexperienced, unskilled driver in anything less than an Advanced HAV, is little more than a nuisance, and simply not worth the SP or ISK investment.

To use Swarms in their current state, a player has not choice to go fully Modded and optimized Proto (just to have a chance at maybe, possibly taking on a lesser tier HAV, but only under absolutely ideal circumstances), or they might as well not bother speccing into them at all.

The state of tanks since their reboot in 1.7 has been very sad. The way CCP keeps going about things leaves only one viable way to tank at a time. What they need to do is make every style of tank viable. A dual hardened tank should not be the obvious choice over everything else. A triple repping tank should not be the obvious choice over everything else. Every style should have an area to excel in but not stomp over ALL. A jack of all trades tank (1 x hardener, 1 x repper, 1 x plate) should be useful in many situations but not great at any.

It's really not all that different to infantry but even there we have problems with bricktanking being the go-to fit for everything.

We need more rock paper scissors situations in all areas of this game and between tanks vs tanks, ADS vs ADS and infantry vs infantry as well as everything inbetween.

I'm not crying about triple reppers or dual hardeners or anything like that. It's just saddening seeing one type of vehicle out there and must be boring for those players who are running the same thing every single game. I wished they'd not nerfed hardeners like they did but applied a repping penalty to them instead. I wish they'd bring back active reppers at the strength of current passive reppers and make passive repping much lower. I don't want anything to be obviously weaker than anything else - I want everything to have its place and be useful in the right situations; not ALL situations and not NONE either.

I said no stacking because whenever we stack any modules the AV community cries OP and unfair.

Often times the only way to deal with those deep-in-the-redline cowards is to go out there and kill yourself and hopefully take them with you. If I don't go out there, they will just stay there pounding our team safely from the distance with no risk and all reward.
So you think I'm stupid because I take care of the guy that is hated by the whole community? I may be stupid, yes, but I do it out of willingness to try to help. But yes, I'm stupid, if I was smart, I would only play for my own enjoyment, not anyone else's.

When you are using AV, you cannot expect to go take the HAV head on, you gotta use the environment as your cover. And I was in a match yesterday where there was ADV minmando pounding my friend's triple rep Maddy (I don't use triple rep myself) with swarms and he made the observation that if that minmando would ever get 5 volleys off, it would kill him, but fortunately that minmando was stupid enough to stay out in the open every single time, so he was dead before he could fire 5 times. If he had taken elevated position, he could have easily gotten 5 shots off if my friend would have remained within his range. So if you engage the HAV where it is at it's strongest, you are expected to lose. Engage it where the HAV is at it's weakest and you will come out on top almost every time.

I agree with everything except active reppers being the only as strong as current passive reppers... I think active reppers need to be considerably more powerful but at the same time have long cooldowns and for that to work we might need slightly stronger plates to survive at all before having to activate repper. I used to rely heavily on remote reppers and shield transporters but we don't have those anymore...

Sorry, allow me to clarify:

Anything less than Proto Swarms, with full stacked Damage Mods, the extra damage bonus from a Minmando Suit, and the assistance of two or three other Dedicated AV, all working together against an inexperienced, unskilled driver in anything less than an Advanced HAV, is little more than a nuisance, and simply not worth the SP or ISK investment.

To use Swarms in their current state, a player has not choice to go fully Modded and optimized Proto (just to have a chance at maybe, possibly taking on a lesser tier HAV, but only under absolutely ideal circumstances), or they might as well not bother speccing into them at all.

Yeah, I'd agree to that - when I've talked of this elsewhere I've said at least as powerful as current passive reppers.

I don't think you could make them 'considerably stronger' though because then you'd get people stacking multiple active reppers and have the same constant super repping effect. The principle is all there anyway - just needs fine tuning (no CCP, put down that sledge! )

I think Wyrkomi costs 77k each =< Soma/Sica

OF course I care about the infantry AV side if it because it's fuckin unbalanced. Where have I said I don't care about tank vs tank you fuckin idiot?

I want tanks to stop being able to dominate infantry while they are roaming for tank kills. I want HAVS to have their main role be vehicles first, infantry second. If you want to solo the whole damn board, then so should your infantry counter part. If you want teamwork to take down your HAV, then fit your tank with AI turrets to give logical reasoning for it to take multiple AV.

The problem is people like you want to kill other HAVS and completely ignore the infantry existence until you run out of HAVS then start mowing the lawn over everything that can't counter you.

That's my fuckin problem with HAV and people like you. Now you know and can stop spouting horse ****.

Edit - and another thing. No infantry i ******* know said nerf the percentage of hardeners. We said remove the ability to stack them and be granted total invulnerability almost indefinitely, because that was NOT "windows of opportunity". Get your facts straight.

Wyrkomi Swarms, plus Damage Mods, plus the Proto Suit costs 150k+ each (anything less is ineffective and basically pointless).

Probably about half as much as a tanker's suit + tank but, then again, that tanker's basically got an extra life. Think of it as the necessary expense to wear what is essentially two suits. One (the tank) that has an insane amount of hitpoints and firepower compared to my AV suit, that you can jump out of just before it is destroyed and continue playing, and the other (your Dropsuit), that you can continue to be effective in once your tank is gone.

If I take even a fraction of the damage that your HAV does, I'm dead and respawning. You can take a ton of damage and hop out, still at full health and ready to continue fighting, at which point you should have zero difficulty finishing me off, since I'm standing there with a weapon that doesn't work against Infantry.

HAV pilots also have a ton more survivability compared to their AV counterparts. They have a ton of hitpoints, tons of firepower that can be effective against Infantry AND other vehicles, and are immune to one-hit killers like Snipers or SG Scouts, while the AV is vulnerable to everything on the field while their attention is on the HAV.

AV tend to die much more than the HAV pilot so, if I had to guess, I'd say that our overall per-match expenses are close to, if not more than, that of the HAV, while our end-of-match payout is significantly less.

When was the last time you saw an AV go 10-1, or 15-2, or 20-0 in a match?

When was the last time you saw a tanker top the scoreboard?

Only scrubs who value their precious KDR jump out of their tanks before they blow up. Tanks are not disposable dropsuits; they are a role to be skilled into, just like any other dropsuit.

Also, KDR is not the be-all end-all statistic. I often top the scoreboard with less than 10 kills. It's because I'm a missile Gunnlogi, so destroying other vehicles is my primary focus which nets WPs more so than KDR.

Logibros can also top the scoreboard without getting any kills. Does that mean though that they are ineffective if they didn't get any kills?

An AV'er does not need to go 10-1 or something high like that. They get much more WP for damaging and destroying vehicles than killing infantry.

It was not a point of KDR, but more profit versus loss. Top of the scoreboard = higher payout.

For example:

If an HAV costs 300k, plus another 100k for the driver's dropsuit, for a total of 400k...

and my Proto AV suit, including Proto Swarms cost 150k...

and I die 5 times in a match while trying to take out the HAV, but manage to eventually take him out in the process...

but, in the meantime that HAV racks up 10 kills...

He'll probably be awarded more WP, and a higher ISK payout than I will at the end of the match, for going 10-1 than I will for going 1-5 (even with damage points).

His total expenditure = 400k ISK.

My total expenditure = 700 ISK.

It just isn't cost-effective, with regard to SP required to specialize and ISK awarded at the end of the match, to specialize in AV, not when there are so many easier, more rewarding alternatives (Logi, for example).

If you want to bring ISK into the argument I can tell you that tank vs tank fights are even less profitable. I can roam around in my 700K ISK tank with 2 gunners and get 2 shotted down by a 70K Sica. So, 1 death = 700K... how many times can you die for that price?

Mechanics should then benefit players who fit for squad based activities not rewards those who selfishly fit tanks for their solo benefits.

If your loosing 700k ISK per tank death, it's your own fault. Just about every vehicle module in the game yields little to no benefits across higher tiers, meaning you could run the basic with no issues in performance.

Though at 700k, I could die about 2-3 times depending on my fit.

Here's a start.

NAV HIV is the one who brought ISK into the argument, not me. I just pointed out that running an EFFECTIVE dedicated AV is not a profitable venture, by any means (potentially less so in the long run than running an HAV).

Sure I can run a cheaper fit, but I'll probably only make a few damage points. I certainly doubt I'll be destroying anything less than militia LAV's with basic swarms, but I might turn a small profit at the end of the match (nowhere near what the slayers or Logis or HAV drivers will, though).

But, if I want to even have a chance at putting a dent in any significant HAV, I'll have to put full Proto on the line every time and, considering how many threats there are to me while I'm shooting at the HAV, the risk just isn't worth the potential reward and, while I might cost that HAV driver msome money, I'll also be losing money myself in the process.

How are the other two Armour Modules OP? How?

HAV drivers only make profit in ambush.... Unless you use a Soma or Sica all the time...

My Scout suit = 186k Total EHP 240

My Maddy Blaster 172k lol

HAV drivers only make ISK in Ambush ?! lol If i run my tank i can make 1.5 - 2 mil in 4 rounds... Without losing any ISK...

If i run my scout suit for 4 rounds, i'll be surely losing a mil or two...

I deleted my Swarm fitting. SOMA with MLT Rail Turret and Damage mods is still 1 third of the Cost of my AV suit...

I'm starting to think that tanks need to be required to fit small turrets again. There's too much personal gain from not fitting small turrets, and the fitting resources cannot be balanced for both solo and crewed HAVs.

It's a breeze to fit all proto without any small turrets, but I need near max skills and fittting enhancements to fit all proto and two advanced small turrets, and in the end I actually have 1 free PG left, not joking.

Not requiring small turrets was the lazy way around implementing vehicle locks, and it has created this side-effect of boosting personal gain. The fitting resources are balanced for having small turrets, but not putting them on throws away that balance. It's the reason I'm able to fit a triple rep militia fit Madrugar without any armor fitting optimization skill. I can't fit even one small turret if I wanted to.

Requiring small turrets might be the or one of the "nerfs" needed without actually nerfing tanks. Those of us that already fit small turrets won't get penalized for those that take advantage of that extra fitting ability.