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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1625
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Posted - 2014.04.22 13:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
If only we had our chassis upgrades. You could probably fit up a Maddy with plate, repper, and nanofiber/torque unit in the lows with a fuel injector + mod of your choice in the high.
I also find it humorous how the AV community basically brought triple rep Maddies onto themselves. Just goes to show that they don't care what nerfs are taken into effect. They see a tank nerf and they think it'll solve their problems. Sadly, CCP listens to them.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1627
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Posted - 2014.04.22 14:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:How about
1x Plate 1x Repper 1x Hardner
On an armour tank that's enough EHP to survive a whole magazine volley of swarms passively, a hardner will allow you to sponge 2 before requiring a retreat and the repers mean you don't need to recall it everytime someond puts a dent in it.
You still get a decent amount of reps that means you don't have to be out of the fight long, you have longer to defend against suprise attacks. Then in the high slots you fit an afterburner or scanner in 1 slot and an MCRU in the other. Then you use the remaing PG/CPU to fit the best weapons you can. Et voila, now not only are you a decent tank dealing moderate amounts of damage, you are the spearhead for your force, providing cover and an FOB to yourmfellow mercs, who will actually appreciate your exsistance instead of just being another scrub tanker, looking to slauhter enemies for the sake of KDR and your own twisted enjoyment. At this point, a repper is better than a hardener. Why give up a slot for 25% more resistance when you can DOUBLE your rep rate?
Hardeners were viable when they gave 40%. Then you had to choose from either doubling your rep rate or almost doubling your EHP.
Edit: you can also say that two reppers will undoubtedly let your recover from swarms much more quickly than a single rep. Whereas with a single rep you'd be forced to eventually retreat, with double reps you'd almost never have to retreat to a single swarm.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1629
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Posted - 2014.04.22 18:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Harpyja wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:How about
1x Plate 1x Repper 1x Hardner
On an armour tank that's enough EHP to survive a whole magazine volley of swarms passively, a hardner will allow you to sponge 2 before requiring a retreat and the repers mean you don't need to recall it everytime someond puts a dent in it.
You still get a decent amount of reps that means you don't have to be out of the fight long, you have longer to defend against suprise attacks. Then in the high slots you fit an afterburner or scanner in 1 slot and an MCRU in the other. Then you use the remaing PG/CPU to fit the best weapons you can. Et voila, now not only are you a decent tank dealing moderate amounts of damage, you are the spearhead for your force, providing cover and an FOB to yourmfellow mercs, who will actually appreciate your exsistance instead of just being another scrub tanker, looking to slauhter enemies for the sake of KDR and your own twisted enjoyment. At this point, a repper is better than a hardener. Why give up a slot for 25% more resistance when you can DOUBLE your rep rate? Hardeners were viable when they gave 40%. Then you had to choose from either doubling your rep rate or almost doubling your EHP. Edit: you can also say that two reppers will undoubtedly let your recover from swarms much more quickly than a single rep. Whereas with a single rep you'd be forced to eventually retreat, with double reps you'd almost never have to retreat to a single swarm. Quite true, I was going for the smart alec answer, the OPsaid no stacking. It just goes to show that the only viable and most effective fit(s) that is/are left use repper stacking. The only two fits I'd see myself using at this point (if I was specced into armor tanks instead of shield tanks) would either be rep-rep-plate or rep-rep-rep.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1629
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Posted - 2014.04.23 01:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Harpyja wrote: It just goes to show that the only viable and most effective fit(s) that is/are left use repper stacking. The only two fits I'd see myself using at this point (if I was specced into armor tanks instead of shield tanks) would either be rep-rep-plate or rep-rep-rep.
And would you like to explain how Armor Repairer stacking is the only viable fit? Or is anything that can be reasonably killed by it's weakness (Swarm Launchers, all other AV by extension) not considered viable? Wow, your sub-par understanding is gut-wrenching.
Would you care to explain how a fit with only one armor rep is not as effective as stacking armor reps?
I shouldn't even be asking a scrub like you to answer that, but please try to use your little brain as best as you can only to find that there is no Maddy fit that's better than one that stacks reps (either 2 or 3 reps).
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1630
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Posted - 2014.04.23 02:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Commander Tzu wrote:Monkey MAC wrote: 500HP/s is ridiculous you cannot deny, the fact that people are stacking so many reps just shows the general tanker attitude.
I shouldn't die, because I'm in a tank One of the more moronic things I have read on the forums, and that is saying quite a lot. Agreed the triple reps are crazy, but how does that point to a tanker's attitude of "I shouldn't die because I'm in a tank"? Infantry fit armor and shields to their suits, so I guess it means they think they shouldn't die because they are in dropsuits? Tankers and infantry fit their suits so they can survive, sure there are suicide tanks and suicide suits but the basic idea is the same: survive as long as possible. CCP made triple repping the best way to do that, so why not do it? Your logic is akin to the French knights who refused to use the Italian mercenaries who used crossbows because they deemed them to be un-chivalrous. As I remember, their charge into the English lines with no archer support did not end well.... You must be pretty new to the forums. A great deal of HAV users used the reasoning "they should be hard to kill cause of their cost". Which was an actual argument. Then after the the cost reduction and all around AV nerf, many HAV users have said "we should be hard to kill because we are a tank". Which of course is horse ****. That's just a single comment of many similar ones made by tankers defending their reasoning of why a single asset should be able to excel at everything in the game, and rather easily, with the exception of hacking objectives, and why it should take multiple sources of damage to be taken out. (Some even claimed it should require 3-4 AV for instance). Dig through the forums, especially posts made by the users Takahiro something and Speaker something or other. They are the cream of the idiot crop. It will then start to make sense. If balanced properly tanks should be hard to kill.
Right now the problem child is the blaster turret, which is capable of dealing too much damage against other vehicles. Nerf it's damage by about 33%, and once again it's horrible for AV while still retaining the best AI of the large turrets.
There should be a trade off between AI and AV. Currently the blaster sacrifices close to no AV abilities but gains much AI potential. That's the root of the problem here.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1630
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Posted - 2014.04.23 02:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Harpyja wrote:Atiim wrote:Harpyja wrote: It just goes to show that the only viable and most effective fit(s) that is/are left use repper stacking. The only two fits I'd see myself using at this point (if I was specced into armor tanks instead of shield tanks) would either be rep-rep-plate or rep-rep-rep.
And would you like to explain how Armor Repairer stacking is the only viable fit? Or is anything that can be reasonably killed by it's weakness (Swarm Launchers, all other AV by extension) not considered viable? Wow, your sub-par understanding is gut-wrenching. Would you care to explain how a fit with only one armor rep is not as effective as stacking armor reps? I shouldn't even be asking a scrub like you to answer that, but please try to use your little brain as best as you can only to find that there is no Maddy fit that's better than one that stacks reps (either 2 or 3 reps). Harpyja wrote: It just goes to show that the only viable [...] fits(s) that is/are left use repper stacking.
Pretty sure this is what you said. I'm not saying that rep stacking isn't the best effective fit, but you were the one who said it was the only viable fitting. Care to explain why, or is my assertion correct? Oh noes. A tanker called me a scrub. Whatever shall I do? You're just like the media, trying to make everything fit your own biased opinions and try to influence the dumb majority.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1630
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Posted - 2014.04.23 02:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Duran Lex wrote: Call in a tank of course!
But then he'd cry about how someone who didn't spend as much SP as he did killed him. Does not a proto dropsuit with max skills stand a much greater chance against a militia dropsuit with no skills?
Does not a proto dropsuit with max skills have much more EHP than a militia dropsuit with no skills?
You infantry scrubs think it's fine that a proto dropsuit can turn around and kill a militia dropsuit before they even get into armor, but you cry with outrage if vehicles were to also behave like that.
I miss 1.6 now only because militia tanks were free kills and WPs.
Give my basic Caldari medium as much EHP as a proto suit, then we'll talk. Oh wait, you don't want cheap, unskilled dropsuits to pose a threat to your proto suits
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1630
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Posted - 2014.04.23 02:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Harpyja wrote: You're just like the media, trying to make everything fit your own biased opinions and try to influence the dumb majority.
Except unlike the media, what I say is usually true; and unlike most tankers, credible. Your exact words, were: Harpyja wrote: It just goes to show that the only viable and most effective fit(s) that is/are left use repper stacking
I hope that you do realize that "and" narrows down, unlike "or" which pulls from both areas of interest.
Your removal of "and most effective" in your original statement was exactly shaping the statement to fit your own biased opinion. I hope that you're joking when you're saying that what you say is usually true and credible, and that you're only referring to Spkr.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1630
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Posted - 2014.04.23 02:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:Harpyja wrote: If balanced properly tanks should be hard to kill.
Right now the problem child is the blaster turret, which is capable of dealing too much damage against other vehicles. Nerf it's damage by about 33%, and once again it's horrible for AV while still retaining the best AI of the large turrets.
There should be a trade off between AI and AV. Currently the blaster sacrifices close to no AV abilities but gains much AI potential. That's the root of the problem here.
Quick question, when was the Large Blaster designated "Anti-Infantry"? The Idea that a large cannon being designed as an anti-infantry weapon strikes me as something inherently unbalanceable. I'm not saying they shouldn't pack a punch against infantry just that I wouldn't expect a large gun to be as nimble at tracking the movements of small ground troops as accurately as they do. I always thought they were the anti-shield av cannons (a niche that is under filled right now), and the small turrets were the obvious assumption for anti-infantry capabilities. Size should not determine role. It's functionality that should. A blaster turret will always have high AI potential, so it should also have little AV potential as a trade-off.
Blasters were also AV prior to 1.7, which what made them and Maddies so OP. They'd be slaughtering infantry, and then when another tank came around the corner, they'd just fire away and pop that tank, then go back to slaughtering infantry. You call this balanced?
If size determined role, then why isn't it that HMGs can only kill heavies, rifles can only kill medium suits, and sidearms can only kill light suits?
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1631
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Posted - 2014.04.23 02:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Harpyja wrote:Atiim wrote:Duran Lex wrote: Call in a tank of course!
But then he'd cry about how someone who didn't spend as much SP as he did killed him. Does not a proto dropsuit with max skills stand a much greater chance against a militia dropsuit with no skills? Does not a proto dropsuit with max skills have much more EHP than a militia dropsuit with no skills? You infantry scrubs think it's fine that a proto dropsuit can turn around and kill a militia dropsuit before they even get into armor, but you cry with outrage if vehicles were to also behave like that. I miss 1.6 now only because militia tanks were free kills and WPs. Give my basic Caldari medium as much EHP as a proto suit, then we'll talk. Oh wait, you don't want cheap, unskilled dropsuits to pose a threat to your proto suits I don't know what you are smoking man. Proto die all the time to militia. That's a reasoning used by AV to bring attention to HAV bias about you feeling proto weapons should scratch you unless grouped in numbers. How about you dig up posts where infantry have said a proto dropsuit shouldn't die to a militia. I'm curious if you can actually find one, for everyone I know that has played the game knows this to be a simple unavoidable fact. Bah. Only unskilled players in proto die to militia. Any skilled player in proto gear is near unkillable. Even if you begin hitting them from behind, they will turn around and melt you in half a second.
So why shouldn't tanks be the same? Skilled tankers with proto-fit tanks being near unkillable, even when ambushed from behind. But that's not the case. No matter how skilled you are, there's barely much of a gap between unskilled and skilled tankers.
So come back to me when my unskilled dropsuit is almost equal to a fully skilled proto suit.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1631
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Posted - 2014.04.23 03:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Harpyja wrote:Denn Maell wrote:Harpyja wrote: If balanced properly tanks should be hard to kill.
Right now the problem child is the blaster turret, which is capable of dealing too much damage against other vehicles. Nerf it's damage by about 33%, and once again it's horrible for AV while still retaining the best AI of the large turrets.
There should be a trade off between AI and AV. Currently the blaster sacrifices close to no AV abilities but gains much AI potential. That's the root of the problem here.
Quick question, when was the Large Blaster designated "Anti-Infantry"? The Idea that a large cannon being designed as an anti-infantry weapon strikes me as something inherently unbalanceable. I'm not saying they shouldn't pack a punch against infantry just that I wouldn't expect a large gun to be as nimble at tracking the movements of small ground troops as accurately as they do. I always thought they were the anti-shield av cannons (a niche that is under filled right now), and the small turrets were the obvious assumption for anti-infantry capabilities. Size should not determine role. It's functionality that should. A blaster turret will always have high AI potential, so it should also have little AV potential as a trade-off. Blasters were also AV prior to 1.7, which what made them and Maddies so OP. They'd be slaughtering infantry, and then when another tank came around the corner, they'd just fire away and pop that tank, then go back to slaughtering infantry. You call this balanced? If size determined role, then why isn't it that HMGs can only kill heavies, rifles can only kill medium suits, and sidearms can only kill light suits? The problem with this is prior to 1.7, infantry AV were able to take out said Maddie. Now it has the same Killing power, with insane fuckin reps AND Weaker infantry AV to "contend" with. There's a good reason we've been complaining. Damnit. Seriously. Stop talking like you know so much about balancing. Because you don't. All you care about is the AV/infantry vs tank part of the whole balance equation. You don't care about the tank vs tank part of balance. AV in 1.6 was a bit OP, but it was close to being balanced with some slight tweaks. But 1.6 tank vs tank was far from balanced. A blaster Maddy was the be-all end-all of tanking.
Then, 1.7. Tank vs tank was almost balanced, but infantry vs tanks wasn't as close. You cried to nerf tanks and CCP hastily nerfed hardeners. OK, infantry vs tanks is almost balanced again. But now tank vs tank got f***ed up the a**.
You just don't realize that there are two sides to this coin of balance. Any nerfs to tanks to balance out infantry vs tanks has always resulted in upsetting the tank vs tank balance.
So please, stop talking so much as if you know everything that there is to balancing. Because your crying doesn't help to achieve overall balance, which is why we're in this constant nerf-buff cycle.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1631
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Posted - 2014.04.23 03:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Wtf are you talking about man. The difference between proto dropsuits and militia are a hundred or two ehp, and a few select skills increasing in few percentages.
Do you REALLY want me to explain to you the difference between a proto AV dropsuit and a ******* mlt HAV?
No need, I understand balance far better than you do. Nerf, mlt vehicles and modules, make SP investment actually worth a damn. Bring back the SP gap. Bring back tiers.
There, now all of those OP militia tank scrubs are easily wiped off the field.
And for dropsuits.... *looks at my 400 EHP Caldari medium, then looks at my enemy's 800 EHP medium*
Hmm, right, I'm sure that 100% more EHP is definitely marginal.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1641
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Posted - 2014.04.23 18:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:OF course I care about the infantry AV side if it because it's fuckin unbalanced. Where have I said I don't care about tank vs tank you fuckin idiot?
I want tanks to stop being able to dominate infantry while they are roaming for tank kills. I want HAVS to have their main role be vehicles first, infantry second. If you want to solo the whole damn board, then so should your infantry counter part. If you want teamwork to take down your HAV, then fit your tank with AI turrets to give logical reasoning for it to take multiple AV.
The problem is people like you want to kill other HAVS and completely ignore the infantry existence until you run out of HAVS then start mowing the lawn over everything that can't counter you.
That's my fuckin problem with HAV and people like you. Now you know and can stop spouting horse ****.
Edit - and another thing. No infantry i ******* know said nerf the percentage of hardeners. We said remove the ability to stack them and be granted total invulnerability almost indefinitely, because that was NOT "windows of opportunity". Get your facts straight. I also don't want tanks to be able to dominate infantry while they are tank hunting. But you're looking at the situation from the wrong perspective. Tanks in general are not problematic. It's a certain type of tank that's being problematic: the blaster tank.
The blaster tank can pick off infantry much easier than the missile and railgun turrets. A blaster tank can also deal considerable damage to other vehicles. This is a side-effect of the hardener nerf. Before hardeners could help negate a large portion of blaster DPS, making blaster tanks weak at AV. Now though, they barely give up any AV abilities in exchange for far superior AI abilities. This is what's causing the problems, and blasters need a 33% damage nerf. Do that first and we'll see how everything plays out, because I believe that that will help solve this problem.
Now, I disagree with making HAVs AV focused. It's not the hull that should determine its role, but rather its turret type, not size either for that matter. A blaster turret (and pulse lasers and autocannons when they come out) will be able to hit infantry far more easily than missiles, railguns, beam lasers, and artillery. It's because of this fact that turrets should be focused for either AI or AV, where they give up abilities in one in exchange for the other.
Would it make sense if HMGs could only kill heavies, combat rifles only medium suits, and SMG's only light suits? After all, they are all projectiles, but their size varies. No; size doesn't determine role, and neither should it for turrets. Sniper rifles and rail rifles are both hybrid-railgun and are the same size, but that doesn't mean they have the same roles. One is automatic while the other is semi-automatic with a tiny clip size. One has much greater range than the other. Weapon type determines role, not size or even the dropsuit it's on. Therfore, turret type should play the largest factor when defining a vehicle's role.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1641
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Posted - 2014.04.23 18:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mojo XXXIII wrote:NAV HIV wrote:Mojo XXXIII wrote:Sorry, allow me to clarify:
Anything less than Proto Swarms, with full stacked Damage Mods, the extra damage bonus from a Minmando Suit, and the assistance of two or three other Dedicated AV, all working together against an inexperienced, unskilled driver in anything less than an Advanced HAV, is little more than a nuisance, and simply not worth the SP or ISK investment.
To use Swarms in their current state, a player has not choice to go fully Modded and optimized Proto (just to have a chance at maybe, possibly taking on a lesser tier HAV, but only under absolutely ideal circumstances), or they might as well not bother speccing into them at all. I think Wyrkomi costs 77k each =< Soma/Sica Wyrkomi Swarms, plus Damage Mods, plus the Proto Suit costs 150k+ each (anything less is ineffective and basically pointless). Probably about half as much as a tanker's suit + tank but, then again, that tanker's basically got an extra life. Think of it as the necessary expense to wear what is essentially two suits. One (the tank) that has an insane amount of hitpoints and firepower compared to my AV suit, that you can jump out of just before it is destroyed and continue playing, and the other (your Dropsuit), that you can continue to be effective in once your tank is gone. If I take even a fraction of the damage that your HAV does, I'm dead and respawning. You can take a ton of damage and hop out, still at full health and ready to continue fighting, at which point you should have zero difficulty finishing me off, since I'm standing there with a weapon that doesn't work against Infantry. HAV pilots also have a ton more survivability compared to their AV counterparts. They have a ton of hitpoints, tons of firepower that can be effective against Infantry AND other vehicles, and are immune to one-hit killers like Snipers or SG Scouts, while the AV is vulnerable to everything on the field while their attention is on the HAV. AV tend to die much more than the HAV pilot so, if I had to guess, I'd say that our overall per-match expenses are close to, if not more than, that of the HAV, while our end-of-match payout is significantly less. When was the last time you saw an AV go 10-1, or 15-2, or 20-0 in a match? When was the last time you saw a tanker top the scoreboard? Only scrubs who value their precious KDR jump out of their tanks before they blow up. Tanks are not disposable dropsuits; they are a role to be skilled into, just like any other dropsuit.
Also, KDR is not the be-all end-all statistic. I often top the scoreboard with less than 10 kills. It's because I'm a missile Gunnlogi, so destroying other vehicles is my primary focus which nets WPs more so than KDR.
Logibros can also top the scoreboard without getting any kills. Does that mean though that they are ineffective if they didn't get any kills?
An AV'er does not need to go 10-1 or something high like that. They get much more WP for damaging and destroying vehicles than killing infantry.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1642
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Posted - 2014.04.23 19:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote: Mechanics should then benefit players who fit for squad based activities not rewards those who selfishly fit tanks for their solo benefits.
Here's a start. I'm starting to think that tanks need to be required to fit small turrets again. There's too much personal gain from not fitting small turrets, and the fitting resources cannot be balanced for both solo and crewed HAVs.
It's a breeze to fit all proto without any small turrets, but I need near max skills and fittting enhancements to fit all proto and two advanced small turrets, and in the end I actually have 1 free PG left, not joking.
Not requiring small turrets was the lazy way around implementing vehicle locks, and it has created this side-effect of boosting personal gain. The fitting resources are balanced for having small turrets, but not putting them on throws away that balance. It's the reason I'm able to fit a triple rep militia fit Madrugar without any armor fitting optimization skill. I can't fit even one small turret if I wanted to.
Requiring small turrets might be the or one of the "nerfs" needed without actually nerfing tanks. Those of us that already fit small turrets won't get penalized for those that take advantage of that extra fitting ability.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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