DUST Search - Caldari precision versus Gallente sneaking

Laz Ulian Sol wrote:

I'm trying to figure out the best way to counter highly dampened gallente scout players and I keep falling short. I'm not sure what the best way is to actually detect one of these players and I think it's simply because the math won't allow for it.

I'll show you what I've worked out and maybe the community can help me correct my issues or suggest something I haven't thought of. Before I continue, I should mention I used whole percentages for stacking penalties and rounded at the end of the "db" calculations. Percentages used for stacking penalties were 100%, 86%, 57%, and 28%. Also I'm assuming maximum levels for the skills involved.

Most important, if my math is wrong please tell me why it is wrong and I will attempt to correct it. I based the calculations on past understandings of how skills are multiplied and the order in which they are worked on. I'm assuming that cloaks are added at the end. I am already aware that because I'm not using precise stacking penalty percentages that my values have some error.

All values may be plus or minus 1db as a general estimated cover of the error caused by rounding and using whole percentages.

Dampening:

Any scout with passive dampening
35 x .9 = 31.5
Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 = 23.63

Any scout with 1 dampener
35 x .9 x .75 = 23.63
Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 = 17.72

Any scout with 2 dampeners
35 x .9 x .75 x .785 = 18.55
Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .785 = 13.91

Any scout with 1 dampener and cloak active
35 x .9 x .75 x .75 = 17.72
Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .75= 13.29

Any scout with 2 dampeners and cloak active
35 x .9 x .75 x .785 x .75 = 13.91
Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .785 x .75 = 10.43

Precision:

Gallente logi with focused scanner
20 x .75 = 15

Any scout with passive precision
40 x .9 = 36
Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 = 27

Any scout with 1 precision mod
40 x .9 x .8 = 28.8
Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 = 21.6

Any scout with 2 precision mods
40 x .9 x .8 x .828 = 23.85
Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 = 17.88

A couple scouts with 3 precision mods
40 x .9 x .8 x .828 x .886 = 21.13
Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 x .886 = 15.85

A couple scouts with 4 precision mods
40 x .9 x .8 x .828 x .886 x .944 = 19.95
Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 x .886 x .944 = 14.96

Since caldari and gallente are the current in game leaders in precision and dampening I'm going to draw conclusions with these suits as the focus.

With passives alone a caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit.
With 1 precision mod a caldari suit will detect a passive gallente suit.
With 2 precision mods a caldari suit will detect a gallente suit with 1 dampener.
A caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit with 2 or more dampeners.
A caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit with 1 cloak and 1 or more dampeners.
A caldari suit will not detect any suit with 1 cloak and 2 or more dampeners.

Of course that's if all you are equipping is precision mods.

I guess I could just use my eyes. Lol.

Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make

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Laz Ulian Sol The Solecism of Limitation 209	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:25:00 - [1] - Quote I'm trying to figure out the best way to counter highly dampened gallente scout players and I keep falling short. I'm not sure what the best way is to actually detect one of these players and I think it's simply because the math won't allow for it. I'll show you what I've worked out and maybe the community can help me correct my issues or suggest something I haven't thought of. Before I continue, I should mention I used whole percentages for stacking penalties and rounded at the end of the "db" calculations. Percentages used for stacking penalties were 100%, 86%, 57%, and 28%. Also I'm assuming maximum levels for the skills involved. Most important, if my math is wrong please tell me why it is wrong and I will attempt to correct it. I based the calculations on past understandings of how skills are multiplied and the order in which they are worked on. I'm assuming that cloaks are added at the end. I am already aware that because I'm not using precise stacking penalty percentages that my values have some error. All values may be plus or minus 1db as a general estimated cover of the error caused by rounding and using whole percentages. Dampening: Any scout with passive dampening 35 x .9 = 31.5 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 = 23.63 Any scout with 1 dampener 35 x .9 x .75 = 23.63 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 = 17.72 Any scout with 2 dampeners 35 x .9 x .75 x .785 = 18.55 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .785 = 13.91 Any scout with 1 dampener and cloak active 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 = 17.72 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .75= 13.29 Any scout with 2 dampeners and cloak active 35 x .9 x .75 x .785 x .75 = 13.91 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .785 x .75 = 10.43 Precision: Gallente logi with focused scanner 20 x .75 = 15 Any scout with passive precision 40 x .9 = 36 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 = 27 Any scout with 1 precision mod 40 x .9 x .8 = 28.8 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 = 21.6 Any scout with 2 precision mods 40 x .9 x .8 x .828 = 23.85 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 = 17.88 A couple scouts with 3 precision mods 40 x .9 x .8 x .828 x .886 = 21.13 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 x .886 = 15.85 A couple scouts with 4 precision mods 40 x .9 x .8 x .828 x .886 x .944 = 19.95 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 x .886 x .944 = 14.96 Since caldari and gallente are the current in game leaders in precision and dampening I'm going to draw conclusions with these suits as the focus. With passives alone a caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit. With 1 precision mod a caldari suit will detect a passive gallente suit. With 2 precision mods a caldari suit will detect a gallente suit with 1 dampener. A caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit with 2 or more dampeners. A caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit with 1 cloak and 1 or more dampeners. A caldari suit will not detect any suit with 1 cloak and 2 or more dampeners. Of course that's if all you are equipping is precision mods. I guess I could just use my eyes. Lol. CCP never gave the Imperfects a private match after winning the testers tournament. CCP never gave us SP Rollover.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 354	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:30:00 - [2] - Quote A fully damped Gal scout is undetectable by anything. So yeah, for some of them there is just nothing you can do (currently). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all it takes is the right skills maxed (scout suit and profile damp to lvl 5) and the combination of 1 complex + 1 enhanced profile dampener. Anything less than that can be detected by a Cal scout. Of course, this is without taking the cloak into consideration.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 537	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:36:00 - [3] - Quote Wow . if that is true then the system is rigged and that is OP . CCP would have lied about the mechanic's of the bonuses . Yes , this needs some further investigation . Great work OP and thank you for such a great effort . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 537	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:37:00 - [4] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: A fully damped Gal scout is undetectable by anything. So yeah, for some of them there is just nothing you can do (currently). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all it takes is the right skills maxed (scout suit and profile damp to lvl 5) and the combination of 1 complex + 1 enhanced profile dampener. Anything less than that can be detected by a Cal scout. Of course, this is without taking the cloak into consideration. . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Free Beers Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2270	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:37:00 - [5] - Quote a gal scout with 1 cloak and 2 complex damps are invisible to radar. This should tell you how terrible ccp devs are at dust because they need a gimmick Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 356	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:43:00 - [6] - Quote Here's a great table which basically shows you the possible scan profile of everything and how they stack up against scanners and cal scouts. (I'm sorry I can't remember who I got this from, but just know that it is not mine): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AvYSJ6FRJlihdHRWMFFxUDVPbzZPVTdjZmNwR2loYXc&usp=drive_web
Tectonic Fusion 1454	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:44:00 - [7] - Quote Free Beers wrote: a gal scout with 1 cloak + 1 complex damp or 2 complex damps are invisible to radar. This should tell you how terrible ccp devs are at dust because they need a gimmick Edit: Fingers not listening to my brain evidently Only I can detect gallente scouts...with my eyeballs. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Free Beers Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2271	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:51:00 - [8] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Free Beers wrote: a gal scout with 1 cloak + 1 complex damp or 2 complex damps are invisible to radar. This should tell you how terrible ccp devs are at dust because they need a gimmick Edit: Fingers not listening to my brain evidently Only I can detect gallente scouts...with my eyeballs. If they are standing still and cloaked the only 100% way is with you reticle. I hate to say it but i do a lot of ballerina spins looking for hiding shotgun scrubs when i go into building now Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
Rugudorull Apophicyria Be Just or Be Dead 56	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:52:00 - [9] - Quote Sounds like eyeballs needs to be nerfed!
DISGRUNTLEDev 370	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:55:00 - [10] - Quote It's been this way for almost a year... Where were you people when we were discussing this months ago? Galscout has always been the one who can hide from everything. Always.

Charlotte O'Dell Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 2395	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:55:00 - [11] - Quote It's impossible. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 356	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:58:00 - [12] - Quote blorp
Tectonic Fusion 1455	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:01:00 - [13] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Free Beers wrote: a gal scout with 1 cloak + 1 complex damp or 2 complex damps are invisible to radar. This should tell you how terrible ccp devs are at dust because they need a gimmick Edit: Fingers not listening to my brain evidently Only I can detect gallente scouts...with my eyeballs. If they are standing still and cloaked the only 100% way is with you reticle. I hate to say it but i do a lot of ballerina spins looking for hiding shotgun scrubs when i go into building now Maybe if they're at 60+ meters or so. If they are in CQC or in a dark room, the cloak is literally useless besides the dampening bonus. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 396	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:03:00 - [14] - Quote Laz Ulian Sol wrote: I'm trying to figure out the best way to counter highly dampened gallente scout players and I keep falling short. I'm not sure what the best way is to actually detect one of these players and I think it's simply because the math won't allow for it. I'll show you what I've worked out and maybe the community can help me correct my issues or suggest something I haven't thought of. Before I continue, I should mention I used whole percentages for stacking penalties and rounded at the end of the "db" calculations. Percentages used for stacking penalties were 100%, 86%, 57%, and 28%. Also I'm assuming maximum levels for the skills involved. Most important, if my math is wrong please tell me why it is wrong and I will attempt to correct it. I based the calculations on past understandings of how skills are multiplied and the order in which they are worked on. I'm assuming that cloaks are added at the end. I am already aware that because I'm not using precise stacking penalty percentages that my values have some error. All values may be plus or minus 1db as a general estimated cover of the error caused by rounding and using whole percentages. Dampening: Any scout with passive dampening 35 x .9 = 31.5 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 = 23.63 Any scout with 1 dampener 35 x .9 x .75 = 23.63 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 = 17.72 Any scout with 2 dampeners 35 x .9 x .75 x .785 = 18.55 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .785 = 13.91 Any scout with 1 dampener and cloak active 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 = 17.72 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .75= 13.29 Any scout with 2 dampeners and cloak active 35 x .9 x .75 x .785 x .75 = 13.91 Gallente: 35 x .9 x .75 x .75 x .785 x .75 = 10.43 Precision: Gallente logi with focused scanner 20 x .75 = 15 Any scout with passive precision 40 x .9 = 36 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 = 27 Any scout with 1 precision mod 40 x .9 x .8 = 28.8 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 = 21.6 Any scout with 2 precision mods 40 x .9 x .8 x .828 = 23.85 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 = 17.88 A couple scouts with 3 precision mods 40 x .9 x .8 x .828 x .886 = 21.13 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 x .886 = 15.85 A couple scouts with 4 precision mods 40 x .9 x .8 x .828 x .886 x .944 = 19.95 Caldari: 40 x .9 x .75 x .8 x .828 x .886 x .944 = 14.96 Since caldari and gallente are the current in game leaders in precision and dampening I'm going to draw conclusions with these suits as the focus. With passives alone a caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit. With 1 precision mod a caldari suit will detect a passive gallente suit. With 2 precision mods a caldari suit will detect a gallente suit with 1 dampener. A caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit with 2 or more dampeners. A caldari suit will not detect a gallente suit with 1 cloak and 1 or more dampeners. A caldari suit will not detect any suit with 1 cloak and 2 or more dampeners. Of course that's if all you are equipping is precision mods. I guess I could just use my eyes. Lol. amarr can 14.73 with 4 damps also caldari have the skills to see everything but a gal scout or an amarr scout that gives up all his lows the thing that balances this is a gallente cannot see a double damped cal scout (without a proto scanner) so it all boils down to using your eyes Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3869	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:08:00 - [15] - Quote I don't think a dampened scout should be so easily countered. They gave up either mobility or a huge amount of health for that advantage. No.
DISGRUNTLEDev 374	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:19:00 - [16] - Quote Posted - 2013.10.25 20:32:00 - [23] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: Gunmouse wrote: and you want me to take your word on there being stacking penalties Cool. For realz tho, i'd test it, but as a proto gal scout i dont care either way =) It may behoove you to get your dampener skills to Lvl 2 and throw on a militia or basic dampener to avoid 28dB Proto scans. Dodging the 15dB would require all four of your lows to use Complex Dampeners, so for most people it isn't worthwhile. I just came to this conclusion as well, which is really BS. Especially considering the Duvolle Focused has the least fitting requirements for a proto scanner, it's just a slight ISK premium. If scouts ever got to the point where they were viable, why would anyone carrying proto scanners not carry the Duvolle Focused? Thus it'd render the scouts bonus worthless, especially considering it is impossible for a scout with less than 4 lows, like the Minmatar scout, to evade it. They should look at tweaking the numbers for the scanner precisions and scout base profile signature (specifically the scout, not the light), such that everything remains the same as it is now for every suit in how to avoid scanners, but for the scout it would be: Avoid standard by default, as it does now Avoid advanced by max skills, as it does now Avoid proto by 1 complex module, as it does now Avoid Duvolle Focused with 2 complex modules, which currently would actually require 4. That is 3 whole extra mods just to gain the next benefit, and some scouts don't even have room for that. Galscouts have been able to hide for as long as there has been active scanners.
Laz Ulian Sol The Solecism of Limitation 210	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:03:00 - [17] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: I don't think a dampened scout should be so easily countered. They gave up either mobility or a huge amount of health for that advantage. Yes, they give up a lot for dampening but I find it worrying that there is no counter for a fully dampened gallente scout. Why can't a caldari scout give up everything to find a gallente scout also? But as it stands the amount of precision required to defeat dampening is way too high. CCP never gave the Imperfects a private match after winning the testers tournament. CCP never gave us SP Rollover.
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 398	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:29:00 - [18] - Quote Laz Ulian Sol wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: I don't think a dampened scout should be so easily countered. They gave up either mobility or a huge amount of health for that advantage. Yes, they give up a lot for dampening but I find it worrying that there is no counter for a fully dampened gallente scout. Why can't a caldari scout give up everything to find a gallente scout also? But as it stands the amount of precision required to defeat dampening is way too high. this I agree with the problem is the base stats of the scout with profile being 35 and precision at 40 this gives the gallente a huge advantage in this argument another problem is the 25% dampening bonus that the cloak offers another problem nobody has mentioned (price of complex precision mods Vs damp mods) Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 2334	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:41:00 - [19] - Quote use your eyes? it works for me usually O.o god some people really need those scanner crutches don't they.
TBdaBoss ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 76	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:48:00 - [20] - Quote Are we forgetting that if you sneeze aggressively at a Gallente scout several time, he will die? Or that you can just, you know, keep your eyes open? Sure no chevron is great, but we are still rather easy to spot. WE WERE GODS ONCE

Jaster J F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 46	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:56:00 - [21] - Quote Sometimes i fire my plasma cannon into random corners...just in case. It hasnt worked so far, but i have faith that I'll hit something...eventually
Laz Ulian Sol The Solecism of Limitation 212	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:00:00 - [22] - Quote I should probably make it clear that I'm not complaining about cloaks and not being able to see them. I'm concerned with not being able to defeat their dampening. I've been fine with not being able to just scan left and right anymore I think that's fine I just don't like mechanics in a game designed around having counters that don't actually have a counter. Of course I'll use my eyes (but why is it the only option?) CCP never gave the Imperfects a private match after winning the testers tournament. CCP never gave us SP Rollover.
Daddrobit PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 612	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:08:00 - [23] - Quote Banana Crumb Muffins Ingredients: 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon baking soda 1 teaspoon baking powder 1/2 teaspoon salt 3 bananas, mashed 3/4 cup white sugar 1 egg, lightly beaten 1/3 cup butter, melted 1/3 cup packed brown sugar 2 tablespoons all-purpose flour 1/8 teaspoon ground cinnamon 1 tablespoon butter Directions: 1. Preheat oven to 375 degrees F (190 degrees C). Lightly grease 10 muffin cups, or line with muffin papers. 2. In a large bowl, mix together 1 1/2 cups flour, baking soda, baking powder and salt. In another bowl, beat together bananas, sugar, egg and melted butter. Stir the banana mixture into the flour mixture just until moistened. Spoon batter into prepared muffin cups. 3. In a small bowl, mix together brown sugar, 2 tablespoons flour and cinnamon. Cut in 1 tablespoon butter until mixture resembles coarse cornmeal. Sprinkle topping over muffins. 4. Bake in preheated oven for 18 to 20 minutes, until a toothpick inserted into center of a muffin comes out clean. 5. Enjoy! Also, just remove cloaks, there no possibility for any real competitive play when you can just crouch in a corner and be invisible with a ohk weapon. #SaveTheBreach
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 111	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:14:00 - [24] - Quote At max skill ... The CalScout needs +1 Complex Precision Enhancer for every Complex Damp run by GalScout. Example: GalScout has 1 Cmp Damp. CalScout with 2 Cmp Enhancers will see him. CalScout with 1 Cmp Enhancer will not. Gal has 0 dampeners Cal needs 1 enhancers Gal has 2 dampeners Cal needs 3 enhancers Bang?
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2079	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:18:00 - [25] - Quote The numbers are close to balanced... until you add in a cloak that has 25% reduction to scan profiles without the stacking penalties. It's a nice change of pace from the 15 dB scanner just automatically winning unless the Gal Scout wanted to sacrifice all 4 low slots to be undetected last patch. But they did not balance this properly at all. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
icdedppul PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 137	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:55:00 - [26] - Quote ummm your really late LAz. this was known about before they even dropped 1.8.... Save the Breach!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8276	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:04:00 - [27] - Quote The ability to hide should always be easier than the ability to scan. Scanning is much more powerful, as it's basically wallhack + it's shared with your squad, SOMETHING should be able to completely avoid it, so it isn't a complete wallhack. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 763	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:06:00 - [28] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The ability to hide should always be easier than the ability to scan. Scanning is much more powerful, as it's basically wallhack + it's shared with your squad, SOMETHING should be able to completely avoid it, so it isn't a complete wallhack. It is already this way. This is the reason on every suit why scan precision is higher than scan profile. 1 damp will always hide you from 1 precision enhancer everything else being equal. OF course with the free non-stacking-penalty complex dampner that cloaks give, all balance of ewar is thrown out of the window. Fixing swarms
Seeth Mensch Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 184	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:07:00 - [29] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Free Beers wrote: a gal scout with 1 cloak + 1 complex damp or 2 complex damps are invisible to radar. This should tell you how terrible ccp devs are at dust because they need a gimmick Edit: Fingers not listening to my brain evidently Only I can detect gallente scouts...with my eyeballs. If they are standing still and cloaked the only 100% way is with you reticle. I hate to say it but i do a lot of ballerina spins looking for hiding shotgun scrubs when i go into building now AS YOU SHOULD. I am the gun that shoots in the night. I am the hidden tack in the middle of your carpet. I...AM...DARKWING DUCK! ok, I play to be a ninja. I hide a lot. Thats' my deal, that and rushing in to shoot you with my scrubby little gun. I don't think it's unfair to force you to play with someone else in order to take little ol' me down. Alternatively, you could just come in and wait a few moments. I'll be along shortly... Hi! Gosh, I've missed you...with every bullet, plasma shot, rail gun, and missile.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 2334	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:13:00 - [30] - Quote Laz Ulian Sol wrote: Of course I'll use my eyes (but why is it the only option?) because they are OP. nerf eyes then we'll talk about buffing scanners. (( seriously you want to buff passive scanner, aka the wall hack. ))



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