Ok, so this is a pretty cool debate here first so I'm no longer inn troll mode. So let me drop a few things here. I am putting bullet points here but not to be a **** just to keep my ideas from getting tangled lol.

1) Dust uses some of the same tech as EVE so in essence they can port over to another counsel without changing your skills, isk history ect. So excluding what ever hurdles CCP has on that with legal mumbo jumbo they should have options there. If they are using that same model it should work out in the end with the shifting counsels.

2) there are currently like 5400 systems in New Eden and 7200 temperate planets in the universe and only one region out of about 60-64 regions in the universe. Now some are Highsec space and some are SOV space, the equivalent to Molden Heath in eve. So there is a really wide playground untapped waiting to be used. If/When CCP opens up more of that it will most likely be difficult to control multiple regions.

3) New Eden as a whole is not a democracy, I agree there needs to be more added to dust to make it more little guy friendly. In the end CCP should end up doing something for that.

4) Rite now there is no real monetary gain for the eve side and no real way to get isk back and forth this will happen CCP reps have said "we are working on it" I know they are. If you didn't know CCP has actual economists on staff for stuff like that. Now that being said when there is real isk when your work pays into some larger cause or drive beyond what is going on now things are going to get crazy. Then you will have a rush and land grab the likes you have never seen yet. There should be a future rush and waves of newer players around that. You guys all of you will be the Old Guard and in the end have the power. The groups alliances and bonds you work on now will matter when that day comes. In new eden your enemies some times end up being your friends in the end. In the larger picture the largest EVE side groups have 90% of the power and control. http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png That's what the universe looks like. The people that own whole regions of space there have more ISK than you would believe when they get interested and have incentive in what we do here life will change maybe for the better maybe for the worse. But you folks will be the A teams of that front. I would have my merc. hat ready when that comes.

5) If DNS keeps the PFC thing going great if not then no big. I know you guys are pretty pissed about it but in the end it is the reality. I see the MH conquest as an interesting chapter in my eve/dust career.

6) Timers, ok so I will be the first to admit I am not the expert on Dust side timers but I can tell you that on the EVE side the same "problem" exists. It sucks when some one out side of your time zone takes a dump on your stuff and you have to sit there and take it. This is not new. The only solution to that is more people larger groups ect. Trying to be the lone ranger corp. will fail most of the time. Some one has got to watch your back when RL kicks in.

7) When you say a "Dust Council" Do you mean the reps that talk to CCP or what. Because it is unrealistic to think that CCP will hop in and settle disputes. Or that having a council that can run everything will end up being a good thing. Hell you guys say Kane is ****** and stuff imagine the next guy lol. The CCP reps from our end will be voted for at some time and it is not a life time appointment so breath a little on that.

8) Dust is on a cycle just like eve, expect something big at fan fest. This is the normal progression for a CCP universe. The updates slow down before big changes and updates.

9) Some of you act like Dust will die all doom and gloom about it my guess is you will probably quit in time if that's your mindset. And that's fine to some one will replace you and in about 6 months to a year dust will do something new and you'll try to get back into it. This is how EVE works as well. You can't throw a rock with out hearing a I was there back in such and such and came back for what ever is new. This is part of that wave process I am talking about.

10) What DNS is doing, ok so I have said it before I will say it again if you don't like it band togather and come take it. It is not impossible damned difficult but not impossible. In conquest of any type if you own it you make the rules. We own it so when in our house applies. Either join the "Cause" get out of the way or come take it back. Can you do it sure, would I be butt hurt if you did nope. There is always a bigger bad ass in New Eden than you that is fact and applies to all of us.

Ok that's my response do with it what you will.

If you guys want to do something just like I do then mail me and let me know. Galactice Skyfleet Empire alliance is willing to fight back and all our PC corporations have been kicked out of PC already after days of hard fights. We need to band together like others did against EON.

I've received mails from others wanting to form coalitions but when I reply or try to establish contact I get no replies. I am actively doin this myself and staying in contact with those I have received replies of interest. I so far already have strong support and you have yet to been contacted contact me because we'll be holding a meeting amongst representatives soon. I'll be damned if I let DNS have their greedy way without a fight!

1) Dust uses some of the same tech as EVE so in essence they can port over to another counsel without changing your skills, isk history ect. So excluding what ever hurdles CCP has on that with legal mumbo jumbo they should have options there. If they are using that same model it should work out in the end with the shifting counsels.

That isn't how it works, there is much more that has to be done than just "porting over" character data. Porting to a completely different console requires much more work. Also, Dust's engine is already outdated, porting to a different platform would also require CCP to convert Dust to Unreal Engine 4 from 3.

2) there are currently like 5400 systems in New Eden and 7200 temperate planets in the universe and only one region out of about 60-64 regions in the universe. Now some are Highsec space and some are SOV space, the equivalent to Molden Heath in eve. So there is a really wide playground untapped waiting to be used. If/When CCP opens up more of that it will most likely be difficult to control multiple regions.

More ifs and whens, I'm willing to wait, but the rest of the players are not.

5) If DNS keeps the PFC thing going great if not then no big. I know you guys are pretty pissed about it but in the end it is the reality. I see the MH conquest as an interesting chapter in my eve/dust career.

Dust just isn't as healthy as EVE, things like this can happen there and the game just carries on. In Dust, there isn't as much to continue with. It's unbalanced, the FPS mechanics are average at best, the NPE is horrible, and there isn't much progression beyond pubs for most players. PC was the only remotely unique thing Dust had going for it, and now DNS has commandeered it to farm ISK. This isn't just isn't just another chapter in the life of Dust, this is a blow that it may never recover from.

6) Timers, ok so I will be the first to admit I am not the expert on Dust side timers but I can tell you that on the EVE side the same "problem" exists. It sucks when some one out side of your time zone takes a dump on your stuff and you have to sit there and take it. This is not new. The only solution to that is more people larger groups ect. Trying to be the lone ranger corp. will fail most of the time. Some one has got to watch your back when RL kicks in.

Yeah, you really don't get how the timers work, I don't know why you even bothered making this point if you have so little perception of the mechanics. In the current state, a small number of players can easily hold a comparatively huge area. They only need to have 16 players present for the 1 hour period while a district is open for attack. Essentially, their players don't even need to actively play Dust, they just have to show up for an hour during the regular designated time and they will never be short handed. It doesn't matter how large your attacking force is, 50 players can hold an entire planet against an infinite number of opposing forces, they just need to set their timers so that they are all present and properly distributed and they will only need to play dust for about 2-3 hours each day. This same concept applies to an alliance holding all of MH, the volume of the opposition is irrelevant, because the timers allow the occupants to space their windows of vulnerability.

8) Dust is on a cycle just like eve, expect something big at fan fest. This is the normal progression for a CCP universe. The updates slow down before big changes and updates.

We just had a big update, and players are still dissatisfied. At this point, its going to take something HUGE to bring the player's spirits back up. Considering the showing from the previous fanfest, there is a good chance that it won't be enough

9) Some of you act like Dust will die all doom and gloom about it my guess is you will probably quit in time if that's your mindset. And that's fine to some one will replace you and in about 6 months to a year dust will do something new and you'll try to get back into it. This is how EVE works as well. You can't throw a rock with out hearing a I was there back in such and such and came back for what ever is new. This is part of that wave process I am talking about.

The few of us that do still have hope for dust are not enough to keep it going. There is no player turnover, only player loss. It is laughable to think that new players are coming to Dust, even more so that it is enough to keep up with the players that are leaving.

10) What DNS is doing, ok so I have said it before I will say it again if you don't like it band togather and come take it. It is not impossible damned difficult but not impossible. In conquest of any type if you own it you make the rules. We own it so when in our house applies. Either join the "Cause" get out of the way or come take it back. Can you do it sure, would I be butt hurt if you did nope. There is always a bigger bad ass in New Eden than you that is fact and applies to all of us.

You obviously don't get how PC really works when it comes to attacking an established district from the outside. Clone packs are 120 clones and are fairly expensive. Considering a district can have up to 400 clones, it will take many attacks to ever come close to taking a district. A minimum 3 wins in a row, considering both corporations are evenly matched. It is also a huge ISK sink, as it will cost hundreds of millions to take a district with only clone packs, only to be left with a few clones to defend it and surrounded by hostile districts with hundreds of clones to spare. Taking a district with a clone pack only results in an immediate loss in 1-2 counter attacks.

Ok that's my response do with it what you will.

Ok gonna try to respond here lots of text to go threw both yours and mine. Gonna stick to the numbers thing.

1) Ok so yeah they would need to upgrade the engine. They have done this before. I will grant you that the first few times CCP tackles this it might be a bit rough. But they have done this before in EVE. Removing whole engines in down time and replacing them for the most part well. I will grant there are more challenges for them on non-pc based systems but I really don't think they would have started it if they didn't think they could do that. And also no one has ever tried what they are doing so give CCP a bit of credit here just the fact that we are on separate games on separate machines fighting in real time alown is an achievement.

6) I made this point because the same mechanics exist in eve on multiple levels. I will explain. There are on average 30-40k people on eve at any one given time. spread out over 5400 systems. So the reality of times is pretty close. Say I want a Customs office the other guy sets a timer I have to go back on multiple days to kill the thing spending lots of isk to do it. Same with Player owned stations. Looking at what you have said and others have told me. The clone pack system is junk fair enough. But I would expect when the economy gets rolling it will be a bit different. But at the end of the day just like EVE it is a business CCP wants you to fight and wants you to spend cash to buy isk it is part of the whole thing. Maybe it is off and should be changed and with one group controlling 90+ percent of the game I would not be to surprised to see mechanic changes revolving around that in the future.

8) Changes will come. What you miss here is the makers of the game think long term in a way you just don't understand at all. This isn't call of duty or some other FPS where the makers suck as much money out of it and dump it for a newer sexy model. Dust will morph and change in time this is the nature of the game.

9) The laughable part is you think that they won't be coming to dust. I imagine in the end Dust will be like EVE where you have a corp group of hard core folks that keep the lights on and people that hear from people about this game ect. Just how it works. Rite now they are working the bugs out getting it rite and making it viable.

Its a win win for us. If you fight back, its fun fights for us. if you join us, its fun fights together... Assimilation is invevitable

So, let me get this straight.

For the game to be successful DNS should not own 100% of Planetary Conquest? If we want people to stay, we should just limit ourselves to a small piece of the pie..

Ok, for ***** and giggle, what do you, the community think would be fair for DNS to own and split among all of the Corps in the Alliance? Serious answer please. I am curious to know what we should own.

Also, should we be allowed to attack or just be in defense mode? I'd like to read some serious answers please.

So, let me get this straight.

For the game to be successful DNS should not own 100% of Planetary Conquest? If we want people to stay, we should just limit ourselves to a small piece of the pie..

Ok, for ***** and giggle, what do you, the community think would be fair for DNS to own and split among all of the Corps in the Alliance? Serious answer please. I am curious to know what we should own.

Also, should we be allowed to attack or just be in defense mode? I'd like to read some serious answers please.

9) I have no idea if they will be coming to Dust in the future. I'm talking about right now, and right now there is no player retention and there is no turnover.

Well, I figured this thread was done but since not, here goes...

First and foremost, I am not and have never been an EVE player. I have been in DUST since the open beta period, going into a year and a half or so. That ENTIRE time I spent in an NPC corp, Independently Contracting whatever various "jobs" I could facilitate and ran in pubs. I've never been a Protostomper (despite achieving Proto during open-beta), and have actually only ever used a full proto fit 3 maybe 4 times in pubs, twice because the fits with the gear I wanted I only had ready on a Proto fit, and twice because I found myself against full A-teams who were Proto so I said, what the hell. I've been stomped, I've been farmed, I've been "locked out" from aspects of the game that "should" have been open to me. I am NOT going anywhere. And I am not alone.

In RL, about 3 weeks back, I was at a bbq/house party with some friends and per usual a couple of us started talking our games and come to find two of my friends in the last 2 months have both started playing DUST and are working their ways (yeah, its slow) up from the noob rungs and into the scrub rungs of the DUST ladder. Its a brutal climb, but these guys don't give a f@ck since the game AS IT IS already offers game elements NOT available elsewhere.

I guess my point is that I read a lot of QQ about the NPE and player retention and while I don't argue the login stats or the LoLCademy (didn't have them thar' things in mah' day!) that are commonly referenced I do question the interpretations of the data. Somewhere is a quote from CCP that DUST is to be the sort of game that just outlives everything else, players will come and go as their long-term lives and interest affords them. This is working as intended. Its MEANT to be set aside occasionally, so I really think these "dwindling player counts" are people doing just that- playing a while, then taking breaks. It doesn't always mean ZOMG the game is dead, it means people just aren't on.


I realize you're probably tired of hearing it from DNS members/allies but I also have to repeat whats been said already many times and ways, that DNS is not "tearing down what CCP built", they're USING what CCP has built and by all evidence provided, its being used AS INTENDED.

Alright, sorry for the response delay I wanted to be on a desktop since the quoting mechanic from my phone sucks.

What DNS is doing is viable in Dust, but it is not good. If you support it, you are either misinformed or truly a hindrance to the Dust community.

For your first point about retention and player numbers, I see your point. If that is how CCP intends for the game to be for the time being, then I understand how I may have wrongfully perceived that as a failure to retain players.

As for the second part, I don't think you're seeing the full picture of what I was trying to convey. Yes, DNS is using tools that CCP provided us with, but intention isn't valid here in any respect. I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry. I don't know what your personal intentions are in supporting DNS, but many are doing it solely to rake in ISK. Competing is ultimately not a viable option, so DNS simply sits and accumulates ISK. It is well within your rights to do that, but that doesn't make it any less harmful. How encouraging do you think it is for a new player to hear "Oh, PC? Yeah, nobody really does that atm, the few corps that are there just sit on their districts. We could probably do something about it, but we'd just burn our finances and wear out our players in the process."?

That brings us back to your "playing a while, then taking breaks" view of Dust. DNS players have that luxury, they have a huge alliance at their disposal. They can take a break, someone will pick up the slack, and they come back to even more wealth than before. That doesn't apply to everyone else, nope, no time for on-again off-again stuff. We have to continue to play consistently and regularly to maintain our finances, and that's nothing compared to if we tried to take MH back. That kind of onslaught would require a major focus and insanely strict consistency across all of the best non-DNS players. Even those that don't participate in PC would be forced to continue playing regularly to help maintain the necessary ISK to continue. So, if we were to try to overthrow DNS, we would have to play the game in a way that you stated was not intended by CCP. So, once again we return to my point, that DNS is not healthy for Dust or its community.

What DNS is doing is viable in Dust, but it is not good. If you support it, you are either misinformed or truly a hindrance to the Dust community.

So, let me get this straight.

For the game to be successful DNS should not own 100% of Planetary Conquest? If we want people to stay, we should just limit ourselves to a small piece of the pie..

Ok, for ***** and giggle, what do you, the community think would be fair for DNS to own and split among all of the Corps in the Alliance? Serious answer please. I am curious to know what we should own.

Also, should we be allowed to attack or just be in defense mode? I'd like to read some serious answers please.

"... I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry." Funny thing is, the competition hasn't gone anywhere. Pull up DUSTcharts and it's pretty obvious where the competition is. As far as intended use goes, it's safe to assume that since CONCORD hasn't carpetbombed all districts and fleets that are violating the possesion limits then DNS is within those limits ie. doing what's been intended. Question is, when it comes to competitive intent, are you ready, willing and able to do what YOU need to do to compete?


Which should bring us more or less full circle back to your point about DNS and DUSTs overall health.

What's worse, that the most competitive aspect of the game requires the players to move outside their comfort zones to be competitive OR that those who decide for themselves not to do the work to be competitive instead look to taint new players' impressions on the game (like DUST needs help with that) or smear those who are able to be competitive?


And for the record, I ain't **** in my Corp's admin structure, DNS, or PC . I'm just another working merc from the grind of the pubs. None of what I say is to be considered any sort of "official statement" from anyone but me.

You can't really tell others to compete, when competition just isn't possible under PC as it currently is. I've already made it very clear that it is almost impossible to take and hold a district with only clone packs in a completely DNS blue MH. It's one thing if it was just very difficult, but beating our heads against a wall will only damage the corps doing it, hindering their chances at future attempts at PC. For anyone outside of DNS, being "competitive" is building ISK and retaining players in order to be prepared for, at the very least, a change to clone packs in order to make them viable for advancement. The actual factor preventing retaliation are game mechanics, the necessary work just makes an attempt very unattractive.

So, right now, the only "work" that needs to be done to be truly competitive is to join DNS. That doesn't sound very healthy to me, the only way to be competitive is to join the alliance that owns everything. Any other means will only result in financial loss, and eventual failure.

I'm not at liberty to guide you or anyone else to success here, but I will offer you this- You have options, plural. More than just pewpewing waiting for defeat or outright submission. Sometimes we need to step back and look at things from different angles. Options, plural. Find them, diversify and capitalize.

This is people who are better skill wise/ time wise/ and behind the scenes wise than you.

My reaction when reading this post:

Better...time....wise....pffffttttttt


Bwahahahahaha

How many fedoras you got in that basement buddy?

Options? Cut the condescending bull****, if you really think there are all of these supposed options, then you must be far more ignorant than I originally thought.

snip

If you are referring to diplomatic methods, then yes, that is an option. Ultimately, this is the only way DNS can, and probably eventually will fall. From their beginnings, AE has never entered into an alliance/partnership that they did not eventually actively violate at some point. Even so, this type of strategy takes time, and does not disrupt the ISK draw of DNS. It is certain that these negotiations are already taking place, although their success is only known by those involved. For everyone else (read: 99% of the dust community), there really isn't anything to do other than wait around.

Quit proving me correct and I'll quit telling you not to choke yourself on your own self-righteous indignation.