DUST Search - A real revolution of values

Shutter Fly wrote:

el OPERATOR wrote:

[quote=Shutter Fly]

I realize you're probably tired of hearing it from DNS members/allies but I also have to repeat whats been said already many times and ways, that DNS is not "tearing down what CCP built", they're USING what CCP has built and by all evidence provided, its being used AS INTENDED.

For your first point about retention and player numbers, I see your point. If that is how CCP intends for the game to be for the time being, then I understand how I may have wrongfully perceived that as a failure to retain players.

As for the second part, I don't think you're seeing the full picture of what I was trying to convey. Yes, DNS is using tools that CCP provided us with, but intention isn't valid here in any respect. I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry. I don't know what your personal intentions are in supporting DNS, but many are doing it solely to rake in ISK. Competing is ultimately not a viable option, so DNS simply sits and accumulates ISK. It is well within your rights to do that, but that doesn't make it any less harmful. How encouraging do you think it is for a new player to hear "Oh, PC? Yeah, nobody really does that atm, the few corps that are there just sit on their districts. We could probably do something about it, but we'd just burn our finances and wear out our players in the process."?

That brings us back to your "playing a while, then taking breaks" view of Dust. DNS players have that luxury, they have a huge alliance at their disposal. They can take a break, someone will pick up the slack, and they come back to even more wealth than before. That doesn't apply to everyone else, nope, no time for on-again off-again stuff. We have to continue to play consistently and regularly to maintain our finances, and that's nothing compared to if we tried to take MH back. That kind of onslaught would require a major focus and insanely strict consistency across all of the best non-DNS players. Even those that don't participate in PC would be forced to continue playing regularly to help maintain the necessary ISK to continue. So, if we were to try to overthrow DNS, we would have to play the game in a way that you stated was not intended by CCP. So, once again we return to my point, that DNS is not healthy for Dust or its community.

What DNS is doing is viable in Dust, but it is not good. If you support it, you are either misinformed or truly a hindrance to the Dust community.

Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.


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el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 117	Posted - 2014.04.03 19:02:00 - [1] - Quote +1 For a Corp "training group" rep having a sense of politics/meta. Not saying I agree but I still admire the initiative and respect whats been said. Much better read than the outright QQ pages. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 117	Posted - 2014.04.04 00:01:00 - [2] - Quote Lord Tug wrote: Corrrr this crusader guy is feisty one ain't he .. Your guys must be handing out some top hand jobs to get you all fired up like that If you can't see that I'm using a political scenario as an analogy to try and apply to a game which has a very heavy political strategy to it , then it must totally suck to be you . Let me guess , low level mercenary ? They giving you a run out against the PFC districts ? If you think for one second think that 2 paragraphs on a forum page is a f#cking grand utopian plan then you have just reinforced the fact that it does suck to be you (key word - IDEA) As for my logic , would it work in your fantastically described EVE scenario ? F#ck no , that's rediculous , what the f#ck were you even talking about you complete divvy ? Now if you applied my logic of 2/3 of 5k player base boycotting their game to make changes to the rules I think CCP would make some pretty quick changes , sh!ttttt... Your people are living proof that CCP can be pushed into a corner when you done the same dirty little trick I'm talking about with the changing of district locking you f#cking clown , I can't wait for the next riveting load of sh!t you or one of leaders has to say about taking it upon themselves to change more rules in the 'interest' of the community .... Get f#cked !! Damn. ****** up part is that for all your political astuteness you're apparently unable (or worse, unwilling) to recognize the clear options you have and pursue the one thats best for you and yours. Instead it's QblahblahinsultinsultQ frosting on BoycottCeeCeePee cake. Bummer, you were starting so well... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 118	Posted - 2014.04.04 01:13:00 - [3] - Quote Maybe consider it in these terms- For the last year+ there have been a ton of QQ threads about DUST not having enough RP to it, nor enough EVE integration. This (the PFC/DNS/MH scenario) is just the beginning of that (EVE intrigue/deal-making or breaking). How it all falls with some imminent PC revamp is anybodys guess, but that this kind of thing will be more common as EVE corps take greater roles DUSTwise seems IMO to be a given. The sandbox is growing, just not evidently the way folks thought it would right now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 120	Posted - 2014.04.04 16:51:00 - [4] - Quote spams likes, clears bowl and packs another Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 120	Posted - 2014.04.04 22:58:00 - [5] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: 9) I have no idea if they will be coming to Dust in the future. I'm talking about right now, and right now there is no player retention and there is no turnover. Well, I figured this thread was done but since not, here goes... First and foremost, I am not and have never been an EVE player. I have been in DUST since the open beta period, going into a year and a half or so. That ENTIRE time I spent in an NPC corp, Independently Contracting whatever various "jobs" I could facilitate and ran in pubs. I've never been a Protostomper (despite achieving Proto during open-beta), and have actually only ever used a full proto fit 3 maybe 4 times in pubs, twice because the fits with the gear I wanted I only had ready on a Proto fit, and twice because I found myself against full A-teams who were Proto so I said, what the hell. I've been stomped, I've been farmed, I've been "locked out" from aspects of the game that "should" have been open to me. I am NOT going anywhere. And I am not alone. In RL, about 3 weeks back, I was at a bbq/house party with some friends and per usual a couple of us started talking our games and come to find two of my friends in the last 2 months have both started playing DUST and are working their ways (yeah, its slow) up from the noob rungs and into the scrub rungs of the DUST ladder. Its a brutal climb, but these guys don't give a f@ck since the game AS IT IS already offers game elements NOT available elsewhere. I guess my point is that I read a lot of QQ about the NPE and player retention and while I don't argue the login stats or the LoLCademy (didn't have them thar' things in mah' day!) that are commonly referenced I do question the interpretations of the data. Somewhere is a quote from CCP that DUST is to be the sort of game that just outlives everything else, players will come and go as their long-term lives and interest affords them. This is working as intended. Its MEANT to be set aside occasionally, so I really think these "dwindling player counts" are people doing just that- playing a while, then taking breaks. It doesn't always mean ZOMG the game is dead, it means people just aren't on. I realize you're probably tired of hearing it from DNS members/allies but I also have to repeat whats been said already many times and ways, that DNS is not "tearing down what CCP built", they're USING what CCP has built and by all evidence provided, its being used AS INTENDED. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 121	Posted - 2014.04.06 02:11:00 - [6] - Quote 1/2 Shutter Fly wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: [quote=Shutter Fly] For your first point about retention and player numbers, I see your point. If that is how CCP intends for the game to be for the time being, then I understand how I may have wrongfully perceived that as a failure to retain players. As for the second part, I don't think you're seeing the full picture of what I was trying to convey. Yes, DNS is using tools that CCP provided us with, but intention isn't valid here in any respect. I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry. I don't know what your personal intentions are in supporting DNS, but many are doing it solely to rake in ISK. Competing is ultimately not a viable option, so DNS simply sits and accumulates ISK. It is well within your rights to do that, but that doesn't make it any less harmful. How encouraging do you think it is for a new player to hear "Oh, PC? Yeah, nobody really does that atm, the few corps that are there just sit on their districts. We could probably do something about it, but we'd just burn our finances and wear out our players in the process."? That brings us back to your "playing a while, then taking breaks" view of Dust. DNS players have that luxury, they have a huge alliance at their disposal. They can take a break, someone will pick up the slack, and they come back to even more wealth than before. That doesn't apply to everyone else, nope, no time for on-again off-again stuff. We have to continue to play consistently and regularly to maintain our finances, and that's nothing compared to if we tried to take MH back. That kind of onslaught would require a major focus and insanely strict consistency across all of the best non-DNS players. Even those that don't participate in PC would be forced to continue playing regularly to help maintain the necessary ISK to continue. So, if we were to try to overthrow DNS, we would have to play the game in a way that you stated was not intended by CCP. So, once again we return to my point, that DNS is not healthy for Dust or its community. What DNS is doing is viable in Dust, but it is not good. If you support it, you are either misinformed or truly a hindrance to the Dust community. Alright, sorry for the response delay I wanted to be on a desktop since the quoting mechanic from my phone sucks. What DNS is doing is viable in Dust, but it is not good. If you support it, you are either misinformed or truly a hindrance to the Dust community. I am going to continue to keep my personal, emotional opinion on the good or bad-ness of the donut quiet. This is neither the time (this thread) or place (the War Room) for it. That being said, as an active member of a DNS allied corp coming from a long background in the NPC trenches, I don't see how DNS's declared perogative or methods aren't healthy for DUST. I do find the knee-jerk reaction from some to be unhealthy tho, specifically the immediate tendency to say, "Oh it'll be hard, we can't do it, we can't we can't we can't". I've squadded in pubs at one time or another with most of you or your teammembers. You damn well could, were you to try and the longer you don't because you "can't" you won't. Who's the bigger hindrance to the community, our culture and the newbs? The ones who teach not to try or those who teach things to try for? ...your "playing a while, then taking breaks" view of Dust. DNS players have that luxury, they have a huge alliance at their disposal. They can take a break, someone will pick up the slack, and they come back to even more wealth than before. That doesn't apply to everyone else, nope, no time for on-again off-again stuff. We have to continue to play consistently and regularly to maintain our finances, and that's nothing compared to if we tried to take MH back. That kind of onslaught would require a major focus and insanely strict consistency across all of the best non-DNS players. Dude. EVERY player has the option of taking a break. It's not an exclusive element of DNS allianceship, go PS3 button> XMB screen> quit game. And if MH fell to some other alliance while DNS was away, well then that new alliance would have to hold it. Our corps have the same security that any other corps have regarding districts, none. The only way they stay held is if players take the field to defend them. We all have to play "consistently and regularly" with "strict consistency". Hell dude, how the f do you think these insurmountable pro's (not me) got that way? Discipline, dude. I've seen it. By waking up at 5am my time (unholy sacrilege in my RL) to be available on standby to assist in alliance and corp PCs if needed. You say you can't, yet there's plenty who do therefore it is not impossible. "... Even those that don't participate in PC would be forced to continue playing regularly to help maintain the necessary ISK to continue. So, if we were to try to overthrow DNS, we would have to play the game in a way that you stated was not intended by CCP." [i] I said the game was meant for players to be able to take breaks from it occasionally. That indicates that when not taking a break players are playing the game. And players who aren't in on their corps' PC teams yes are playing and paying, through w/e taxation rate the corp has, for any PC endeavors the corp leadership pursues. Don't like taxes? Stay NPC, negotiate something else with your leadership or find a corp with a more appealing tax rate. cont. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 121	Posted - 2014.04.06 02:31:00 - [7] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: [quote=Shutter Fly] I realize you're probably tired of hearing it from DNS members/allies but I also have to repeat whats been said already many times and ways, that DNS is not "tearing down what CCP built", they're USING what CCP has built and by all evidence provided, its being used AS INTENDED. For your first point about retention and player numbers, I see your point. If that is how CCP intends for the game to be for the time being, then I understand how I may have wrongfully perceived that as a failure to retain players. As for the second part, I don't think you're seeing the full picture of what I was trying to convey. Yes, DNS is using tools that CCP provided us with, but intention isn't valid here in any respect. I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry. I don't know what your personal intentions are in supporting DNS, but many are doing it solely to rake in ISK. Competing is ultimately not a viable option, so DNS simply sits and accumulates ISK. It is well within your rights to do that, but that doesn't make it any less harmful. How encouraging do you think it is for a new player to hear "Oh, PC? Yeah, nobody really does that atm, the few corps that are there just sit on their districts. We could probably do something about it, but we'd just burn our finances and wear out our players in the process."? That brings us back to your "playing a while, then taking breaks" view of Dust. DNS players have that luxury, they have a huge alliance at their disposal. They can take a break, someone will pick up the slack, and they come back to even more wealth than before. That doesn't apply to everyone else, nope, no time for on-again off-again stuff. We have to continue to play consistently and regularly to maintain our finances, and that's nothing compared to if we tried to take MH back. That kind of onslaught would require a major focus and insanely strict consistency across all of the best non-DNS players. Even those that don't participate in PC would be forced to continue playing regularly to help maintain the necessary ISK to continue. So, if we were to try to overthrow DNS, we would have to play the game in a way that you stated was not intended by CCP. So, once again we return to my point, that DNS is not healthy for Dust or its community. What DNS is doing is viable in Dust, but it is not good. If you support it, you are either misinformed or truly a hindrance to the Dust community. "... I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry." Funny thing is, the competition hasn't gone anywhere. Pull up DUSTcharts and it's pretty obvious where the competition is. As far as intended use goes, it's safe to assume that since CONCORD hasn't carpetbombed all districts and fleets that are violating the possesion limits then DNS is within those limits ie. doing what's been intended. Question is, when it comes to competitive intent, are you ready, willing and able to do what YOU need to do to compete? Which should bring us more or less full circle back to your point about DNS and DUSTs overall health. What's worse, that the most competitive aspect of the game requires the players to move outside their comfort zones to be competitive OR that those who decide for themselves not to do the work to be competitive instead look to taint new players' impressions on the game (like DUST needs help with that) or smear those who are able to be competitive? And for the record, I ain't **** in my Corp's admin structure, DNS, or PC . I'm just another working merc from the grind of the pubs. None of what I say is to be considered any sort of "official statement" from anyone but me. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 121	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:39:00 - [8] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: "... I think it is mutually agreed that Dust is intended to be a sandbox, so there is no "intended use". So, you can't say PC was intended to be held in this way, any more than I can say that it wasn't. What I am saying, is that it is removing most of the high level competition from Dust, making it stagnant and dry." Funny thing is, the competition hasn't gone anywhere. Pull up DUSTcharts and it's pretty obvious where the competition is. As far as intended use goes, it's safe to assume that since CONCORD hasn't carpetbombed all districts and fleets that are violating the possesion limits then DNS is within those limits ie. doing what's been intended. Question is, when it comes to competitive intent, are you ready, willing and able to do what YOU need to do to compete? Which should bring us more or less full circle back to your point about DNS and DUSTs overall health. What's worse, that the most competitive aspect of the game requires the players to move outside their comfort zones to be competitive OR that those who decide for themselves not to do the work to be competitive instead look to taint new players' impressions on the game (like DUST needs help with that) or smear those who are able to be competitive? And for the record, I ain't **** in my Corp's admin structure, DNS, or PC . I'm just another working merc from the grind of the pubs. None of what I say is to be considered any sort of "official statement" from anyone but me. You can't really tell others to compete, when competition just isn't possible under PC as it currently is. I've already made it very clear that it is almost impossible to take and hold a district with only clone packs in a completely DNS blue MH. It's one thing if it was just very difficult, but beating our heads against a wall will only damage the corps doing it, hindering their chances at future attempts at PC. For anyone outside of DNS, being "competitive" is building ISK and retaining players in order to be prepared for, at the very least, a change to clone packs in order to make them viable for advancement. The actual factor preventing retaliation are game mechanics, the necessary work just makes an attempt very unattractive. So, right now, the only "work" that needs to be done to be truly competitive is to join DNS. That doesn't sound very healthy to me, the only way to be competitive is to join the alliance that owns everything. Any other means will only result in financial loss, and eventual failure. I'm not at liberty to guide you or anyone else to success here, but I will offer you this- You have options, plural. More than just pewpewing waiting for defeat or outright submission. Sometimes we need to step back and look at things from different angles. Options, plural. Find them, diversify and capitalize. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 121	Posted - 2014.04.09 17:52:00 - [9] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I'm not at liberty to guide you or anyone else to success here, but I will offer you this- You have options, plural. More than just pewpewing waiting for defeat or outright submission. Sometimes we need to step back and look at things from different angles. Options, plural. Find them, diversify and capitalize. Options? Cut the condescending bull***, if you really think there are all of these supposed options, then you must be far more ignorant than I originally thought. snip* If you are referring to diplomatic methods, then yes, that is an option. Ultimately, this is the only way DNS can, and probably eventually will fall. From their beginnings, AE has never entered into an alliance/partnership that they did not eventually actively violate at some point. Even so, this type of strategy takes time, and does not disrupt the ISK draw of DNS. It is certain that these negotiations are already taking place, although their success is only known by those involved. For everyone else (read: 99% of the dust community), there really isn't anything to do other than wait around. Quit proving me correct and I'll quit telling you not to choke yourself on your own self-righteous indignation. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 121	Posted - 2014.04.11 07:56:00 - [10] - Quote Yes, it proves me correct when I say there are options outside of QQ and you propose diplomacy in addition to combat or surrender. This doesn't come from my being oblivious, it comes from my mentality of solution creation. I understand what you're saying about ISK consolidation but realistically disparities in individual ISK accumulation have existed since the first mercs into beta began saving their loot. And (unlike RL) our ISK pool is not an essentially finite resource, with values based on national worth. DNS or anybody else can bank up as much ISK as they can get their hands on and its not going to suddenly "dry up" ISK payouts in other parts of the game, so I don't see where any group consolidating it really matters. I DO understand that WHAT those individuals do with the ISK could be problematic, but that's the nature of empiricism. And what is EVE (so by proxy DUST) if not a study of empires? They rise, they fall, somebody steals the wallet, somebody purges the rosters and so on, lather, rinse, repeat. You (shutterfly) mentioned the market opening and being manipulated. If its an "open" market at all, it'll be subject to manipulation ANYWAY. Dirty secret of free markets- They aren't. Peruse some of the WTB/WTS stuff in the Code Bazaar and see it yourself. It doesn't matter that somebody somewhere has $100zillion, it just matters if you can afford it and if not what you need to do to be able to. Whether or not this is detrimental is arguable (obviously) my only point insofar as how DNS is operating is that it's within the structure of what CCP has provided. And that includes these CCP economists too, who should've accounted (see what I did thar?) for this eventuality. And if they DIDN'T and your "roadmap" becomes accurate, you will have the ironic position of proving some of the other more vitriolic thread posters ^ correct also, in that this will have been needed to be done SO that CCP/their economists can gather the data and make the corrections BEFORE more of the universe is made available. For the record, I have no fedoras. But I did sport my zombie facepaint under my balaclava for a long time. La Li Lu Le Lo Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.