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IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 298	Posted - 2014.03.28 15:32:00 - [1] - Quote I'm not a tank fan thus why I've run a forge forever. That said I don't ever suggest tweaks for them. I get frustrated by all the same qq you see here, running from engagements at light speed, hardners that soak all AV, reppers that bring full health in between each forge shot, etc. Maybe the point of AV is just to harass and keep them from doing their job, and I can handle that I don't have to kill them all. My questions to tankers is can you justify large blaster turrets? They're the one thing more than anything that doesn't add up from a force multiplier angle with limits on the number of players.
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 298	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:13:00 - [2] - Quote Tankers comment everywhere but here wtf?
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3130	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:17:00 - [3] - Quote I can Large blaster is effectively a large AR, where you aim is where you hit Missile are crap, you need a direct hit to get a kill because the splash is terrible, a mass driver has better splash and even small missile are even better than the large missile Railguns are iffy, if they work you need a direct hit and splash is nonexistant but also the rail can easily glitch up Now some say well use small turrets, rails have just got nerfed, missile are okay but at distance missile travel time comes into effect and small blasters just dont have the range or power not too mention i want my people in my tank not johnny foreigner who fires at the MCC and wastes my ammo To deal with AV the blaster is great at its job, if i spot them i can deal with them, its accurate and precise and not luck of the shot Intelligence is OP
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 298	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:21:00 - [4] - Quote Thanks for the reply do you thing they work in context of being a force multiplier with a limit on the number of players? At the moment there scissors on crack but the the only rock is a rail tank does that sound right to you?
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3130	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:41:00 - [5] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: Thanks for the reply do you thing they work in context of being a force multiplier with a limit on the number of players? At the moment there scissors on crack but the the only rock is a rail tank does that sound right to you? Its linked with matchmaking/pubs and player counts We currently have 16vs16 against any players When its against academy players they have no chance, take PC tho vehicles are mostly balanced since we end up mostly whacking each other and not infantry half the time But pubs is a different kettle of fish, no matchmaking at all so noobs vs vets, squads vs randoms and in these games the organized and experieanced knows what to do and how to do it on whatever map it is Throw in a tank and it all goes to ****, the academy players dont have a clue, the solo players just dont have the players and the squads can choose to hide or fight either using AV/vehicles But the playercounts are low, we do have big maps that can hold more but we dont know if the system can handle it yet so having 6 tanks on a 16man side seems excessive to say the least but on a 32man side is meh Problem is then do you limit vehicles like they have done for ambush? if you do how do you go about it? currently you have to spam your vehicle at the start of the match to make sure you get yours in or you hit the vehicle limit and your 20mil SP is now useless because you are forced on foot Overall as a force mulitplier its working, a hard counter is the railgun mainly because of the power it has since missiles can be iffy and also not as accurate as the rail and generally the rail is there to put other vehicles in check such as the blaster tank It would be great if it was like blaster kills rail, rail kills missile and missile kills blaster and sort of a triangle of death but with the various fits and player skill missile can kill rails depending on situation etc But everytime we changes things for HAVs the DS/LAV suffer and generally suffer alot more, same with AV whatever is changed the DS/LAV suffer Between 1.7 and chrome we did have balance twice sort of, chrome had a diff balance to 1.7 but then again vehicles were completely different Intelligence is OP
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 298	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:47:00 - [6] - Quote Short of a rail tank what is the option to counter a blaster tank. Ground based infantry is not working and hasn't ever against it. Again this in context of being a force multiplier.
Casius Hakoke Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 321	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:53:00 - [7] - Quote I am a returning tanker, just started playing again this week, but long time blaster user. I'll be honest, I prefer to tangle with other tanks over infantry with my blaster. I've found it actually pretty easy to take out either missile tanks or rail tanks with my blaster as long as they don't have back up. As for blasters as force multipliers, when not trying to deal with enemy tanks, I have noticed it can be difficult sometimes depending on the behavior of infantry. The reason I say this as I have noticed this week that most of the maps now have tons of cover that infantry can use to both protect an objective and to move from objectives sometimes. So it depends if they are moving in the open or if they are using the cover provided. If they are in the open, I do my best to help my sides infantry in what they do best, killing each other. If the enemy is in cover or where I can't shot at, I will just take pot shots and patrol to help prevent enemy reinforcements from getting to the area. Just my two cents. PS: I have noticed that infantry AV has mostly become a harassment tool which I find is still effective in driving off a tank. All be it with more effort than it used to need to just destroy HAV's.
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 298	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:08:00 - [8] - Quote I just can't see it add up. Team A comes on the field with 15 infantry and a blaster tank. Team B has just 16 infantry. All converge in the most contested area. Within the first minute Blaster tank kills 7 people, now four of them switch to AV to counter the tank. Team A -15 infantry vulnerable to 12 at a 1/1 ratio + a tank that is laughably harassed by 4 AV which only slow down its ability to kill everyone because it can't sit in one spot. On top of that all 16 Team B are vulnerable to the tank and the 4 AV are vulnerable to the other 15 infantry. Short of another tank how can team B compete? If tank is using a rail or missiles none of this happens for all the reason you stated.
GeneralButtNaked Amarr Templars 929	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:12:00 - [9] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: I just can't see it add up. Team A comes on the field with 15 infantry and a blaster tank. Team B has just 16 infantry. All converge in the most contested area. Within the first minute Blaster tank kills 7 people, now four of them switch to AV to counter the tank. Team A -15 infantry vulnerable to 12 at a 1/1 ratio + a tank that is laughably harassed by 4 AV which only slow down its ability to kill everyone because it can't sit in one spot. On top of that all 16 Team B are vulnerable to the tank and the 4 AV are vulnerable to the other 15 infantry. Short of another tank how can team B compete? If tank is using a rail or missiles none of this happens for all the reason you stated. Team B spawns two AV at the start of the match, Team A never gets their tank in. Planning ahead has never been a strong suit of Dust mercs. Real AV doesn't stop until all the tanks are dead.
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 300	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:20:00 - [10] - Quote here's what I'm getting at. As an AV infantry I've never had issue with missile or rail tanks. I've gotten blipped by you Butt in a rail plenty of time while trying to get that last forge shot off and laughed its a good fight and you won. Now role up on me with a blaster and I'll be dead before the first shot is off along with any infantry with a 180 degree view of you. Adding more AV to the question doesn't fix it it only make you weaker against the opposing infantry. 1 blaster is roughly equal to 8 infantry or more.

GeneralButtNaked Amarr Templars 929	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:29:00 - [11] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: here's what I'm getting at. As an AV infantry I've never had issue with missile or rail tanks. I've gotten blipped by you Butt in a rail plenty of time while trying to get that last forge shot off and laughed its a good fight and you won. Now role up on me with a blaster and I'll be dead before the first shot is off along with any infantry with a 180 degree view of you. Adding more AV to the question doesn't fix it it only make you weaker against the opposing infantry. 1 blaster is roughly equal to 8 infantry or more. Meh, the issue is that the blaster has too much range, and AV is broken. A working forge with these new hardener values will make short work of armor blaster tanks, and blaster shield tanks are super easy to fight because of the gun depression and lack of impact damage. The question becomes what are light frames supposed to do? PLC and AV nades isn't enough alpha to get the job done. Swarms are wholly ineffective against repping tanks, and the RE option only wroks if you have supply. Also, keep in mind that fighting rail tanks is manageable right now because turret prof is broken. When we can actually get the rotation bonus it is going to be a lot easier to fight CQC with a rail. Which is what people will be doing now, because running a balster Maddy is suicide now. Real AV doesn't stop until all the tanks are dead.
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 300	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:35:00 - [12] - Quote While there has been a lot of qq about how tough tanks are and how crap AV is. Again maybe that is the point to just keep them at bay if your running rail/missile and me and my buddy chase you all over with a forge and lav we're dropping our team by one to protect them, that's relatively fair. Same engagement with a blaster tank how do you think it will go?
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1417	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:37:00 - [13] - Quote Blasters should remain as being AI with nearly nonexistent AV abilities. They should go down when a missile or railgun tank so much as looks at them in an appropriate engagement. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 301	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:41:00 - [14] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Blasters should remain as being AI with nearly nonexistent AV abilities. They should go down when a missile or railgun tank so much as looks at them in an appropriate engagement. Ok where does infantry AV fit in here against the blaster? Is there a purpose? If infantry AV can at least harass rail and missiles but gets slaughtered by a blaster why carry it. The rail and missile are chasing other vehicles and not great against infantry so I'll stick with an HMG and let you world of tank everywhere else. Why as an infantry player do I care about AV? Oh I know that blaster that face rapes the whole team without recourse.
Thumb Green THE STAR BORN 856	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:50:00 - [15] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: I just can't see it add up. Team A comes on the field with 15 infantry and a blaster tank. Team B has just 16 infantry. All converge in the most contested area. Within the first minute Blaster tank kills 7 people, now four of them switch to AV to counter the tank. Team A -15 infantry vulnerable to 12 at a 1/1 ratio + a tank that is laughably harassed by 4 AV which only slow down its ability to kill everyone because it can't sit in one spot. On top of that all 16 Team B are vulnerable to the tank and the 4 AV are vulnerable to the other 15 infantry. Short of another tank how can team B compete? If tank is using a rail or missiles none of this happens for all the reason you stated. Team B spawns two AV at the start of the match, Team A never gets their tank in. Planning ahead has never been a strong suit of Dust mercs. Except team A & B spawn on opposite sides of the map and by the time team B's 2 AV'ers get within range team A's tanks are either shooting at them or just got dropped off. Or team A & B spawn on top of each other and team A slaughters team B's AV while team A's tanker hides until his tank lands. Support Orbital Spawns
EverNub Da Short Buss RISE of LEGION 29	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:51:00 - [16] - Quote Casius Hakoke wrote: I am a returning tanker, just started playing again this week, but long time blaster user. I'll be honest, I prefer to tangle with other tanks over infantry with my blaster. I've found it actually pretty easy to take out either missile tanks or rail tanks with my blaster as long as they don't have back up. As for blasters as force multipliers, when not trying to deal with enemy tanks, I have noticed it can be difficult sometimes depending on the behavior of infantry. The reason I say this as I have noticed this week that most of the maps now have tons of cover that infantry can use to both protect an objective and to move from objectives sometimes. So it depends if they are moving in the open or if they are using the cover provided. If they are in the open, I do my best to help my sides infantry in what they do best, killing each other. If the enemy is in cover or where I can't shot at, I will just take pot shots and patrol to help prevent enemy reinforcements from getting to the area. Just my two cents. PS: I have noticed that infantry AV has mostly become a harassment tool which I find is still effective in driving off a tank. All be it with more effort than it used to need to just destroy HAV's. I agree thats really what most tankers tend to do in Dom or Skirm settings. Tank Bush is absolutely rediculas though and i refuse to play it anymore because of that fact., unless im with my tank buddies of course haha. I recently went to Minmitar Commando since i alredy had maxed out prof 5 mass driver and prof 5 swarm launchers (before they were nerfed last time) and i do kill alot of tanks since the new patch, but if its a dual hardner gunloggi i cant even scratch the dmn thing! but the points i get off the dmg i do is worth the isk id say. What is the use of fighting if you haven't got a tolerable planet to fight over? Trees...We need Trees...
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 453	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:54:00 - [17] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: here's what I'm getting at. As an AV infantry I've never had issue with missile or rail tanks. I've gotten blipped by you Butt in a rail plenty of time while trying to get that last forge shot off and laughed its a good fight and you won. Now role up on me with a blaster and I'll be dead before the first shot is off along with any infantry with a 180 degree view of you. Adding more AV to the question doesn't fix it it only make you weaker against the opposing infantry. 1 blaster is roughly equal to 8 infantry or more. You must be doing something wrong . I used a ion blaster earlier and head's up .. toe to toe with a forger ( to that forger , my hats off to you .. you didn't back down and I know you just loved the fact that I didn't drive off ) ground level and took five to six shots from a Ishukone ( or how ever it's spelled but I love that name though ) and this merc did themselves justice and blasted me ... so if your having problems maybe you need to rethink your strategy . Blasters are basically anti-infantry while rail guns are anti-aircraft / vehicle and missiles are anti-vehicle . Don't know what else to tell you . Leave all negative comments about tanks in the bin marked " TRASH " and we'll get to it as soon as possible . Thank You
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 301	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:57:00 - [18] - Quote As a tanker I think you should be looking at it. They're going to strip your hull to nothing and allow every ads with adv missiles to blop you when most of the frustration and qq on the forum comes from Blaster tanks being OP. Note I didn't say tank are OP. Regulate yourself before your vehicles are useless.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 454	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:01:00 - [19] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Blasters should remain as being AI with nearly nonexistent AV abilities. They should go down when a missile or railgun tank so much as looks at them in an appropriate engagement. That's not true and shouldn't be because your mechanics would cause them to be weak against stationary turrets as well as anything that's not a meat-bag . All large turrets should be able to confront each other while some having a noticeable advantage over others . I can appreciate the way that it is now even more with the distance change for the large rail guns . Leave all negative comments about tanks in the bin marked " TRASH " and we'll get to it as soon as possible . Thank You
Casius Hakoke Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 322	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:02:00 - [20] - Quote EverNub wrote: I agree thats really what most tankers tend to do in Dom or Skirm settings. Tank Bush is absolutely rediculas though and i refuse to play it anymore because of that fact., unless im with my tank buddies of course haha. I recently went to Minmitar Commando since i alredy had maxed out prof 5 mass driver and prof 5 swarm launchers (before they were nerfed last time) and i do kill alot of tanks since the new patch, but if its a dual hardner gunloggi i cant even scratch the dmn thing! but the points i get off the dmg i do is worth the isk id say. I've always hated playing ambush myself. But with the huge number of people running tanks, especially milita tanks, ambush has been a pretty good place to get a nice tank battle. No where near as good as in the other two modes but it can happen. Still hate ambush though. I don't know, I've never found killing infantry in large numbers to be very fun for me, only if they through themselves at me. Its the tank on tank love that I love and crave.

Casius Hakoke Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 322	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:06:00 - [21] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Harpyja wrote: Blasters should remain as being AI with nearly nonexistent AV abilities. They should go down when a missile or railgun tank so much as looks at them in an appropriate engagement. That's not true and shouldn't be because your mechanics would cause them to be weak against stationary turrets as well as anything that's not a meat-bag . All large turrets should be able to confront each other while some having a noticeable advantage over others . I can appreciate the way that it is now even more with the distance change for the large rail guns . I agree with you completely. Every large turret should be able to compete with each other but with different bonuses as to what they are best against.
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 301	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:08:00 - [22] - Quote I think tankers are being miss led ATM. Infantry has not asked for rail gun reduction that is from dropship and blaster tank pilots. I'm not asking for hardner or rep nerfs as I stated earlier that I can deal with just keeping you at bay. I'm no asking for AV buff because I know where it will leave ds pilots. Blaster tanks are easymode they **** people off and cause a tremendous amount of qq. None of that will help tanks in the end. Could you consider a nerf on the turrets as opposed to all the other proposed changes? I think it would drop your qq at least from infantry and you can fight amongst yourselves over how badass the tank needs to be.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1819	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:11:00 - [23] - Quote Well like someone stated before, Blasters are really the only viable Large AP turret. Missiles typically require a direct hit to kill and Rails are tricky to use up close. HAVs need some form of AP otherwise they would only exist to kill other vehicles, which just isn't good game design. In all fairness the Blaster is the worst AV turret of the 3 we have right now, and while it can be used for AV, it struggles even at close range against other turret types in head on combat. Now the neat part is that you can keep overall DPS the same by throttling Damage/shot and fire rate. If DPS remains constant, the turret's effectiveness against other vehicles is largely unchanged. However by increasing damage per shot but decreasing fire rate by a proportional amount, this decreases the effectiveness against tiny targets like infantry. I'd essentially like to see Large Blasters be that middle ground between AV and AP, not amazing at either but flexible. I'd actually like the true AP turret to be a Minmatar Large Autocannon. Extremely effective at killing infantry but dismal against other vehicles, in effect the polar opposite of the Railgun. Pokey Dravon for CPM1
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 301	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:14:00 - [24] - Quote Look it's just too effective at Anti infantry for the AV counter parts that the infantry can hold. Your going down a path that will buff infantry AV and nerf the tank or it's modules when it might not be needed.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3131	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:16:00 - [25] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: Short of a rail tank what is the option to counter a blaster tank. Ground based infantry is not working and hasn't ever against it. Again this in context of being a force multiplier. If its armor missile 2 FG can defo put a hole in it when they work but atm glitched like rails have been Intelligence is OP
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 301	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:19:00 - [26] - Quote I really do appreciate the comments from the tankers, unfortunately the response seem short sighted I'd imagine tanks will continue to experience constant pendulum swings based on this. Have fun.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2784	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:20:00 - [27] - Quote Large blaster turret was always a ridiculously imbalanced idea, the gallente turret should have been akin to a super plasma cannon with a charge and decent splash radius I'll start my own war, with hookers, and blackjack! In fact forget the war and the blackjack.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3131	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:22:00 - [28] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: I really do appreciate the comments from the tankers, unfortunately the response seem short sighted I'd imagine tanks will continue to experience constant pendulum swings based on this. Have fun. Its always been this way If pilots are happy infantry is not If infantry are happy pilots are not If CCP go the way of EVE and add in Cap and all the mods and everything else it would work better Intelligence is OP
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1819	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:28:00 - [29] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: I really do appreciate the comments from the tankers, unfortunately the response seem short sighted I'd imagine tanks will continue to experience constant pendulum swings based on this. Have fun. Its always been this way If pilots are happy infantry is not If infantry are happy pilots are not If CCP go the way of EVE and add in Cap and all the mods and everything else it would work better Well as they say, in a true compromise, no one is happy. Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Xun Tae Ivory Vanguard 4	Posted - 2014.03.28 19:19:00 - [30] - Quote Rail turret needs a second fix. Currently armor/blaster tanks win because they can drive on top of my turret preventing me from shooting. If I pull the trigger in that position it should explode (exposed under belly shot). I can even get behind me taking splash damage.



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