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Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad.
541
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Posted - 2014.03.24 08:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
Yes tanks and dropsuits need cap. This game is fundamentally wrong at the moment and that's why there's no balance.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
559
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Posted - 2014.03.24 15:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:You can balance vehicles with or without a pilot suit. If you balance it with the suit you require all pilots to wear it to be balanced and it becomes yet another SP and ISK sink.
If you balance without it, you can't introduce it into the game without unbalancing vehicles again.
So pilot suits are simply a bad idea. says the guy whos sp is all over the place, i have 18k into ads its core skills, and turrets. i dont have any suits and i just got some nova knives today eveything els is locked, pilot suits should be for pilots only. I don't think you understand. Pilot suits would simply add yet another skill tree that pilots would have to climb in order to fly effectively. We already have Vehicle Upgrades, Turrets, and Vehicle Command. We need a pilot suit tree like we need another hole in our heads and our wallets. Radar, or a data link allowing you to see enemy contacts encountered by your whole team and not just your squad. countermeasure, increased power/Cpu, ability to use more complex aircraft, module or the ability to ovrload systems. increased module effectiveness ect
Hmmm interesting
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad.
1440
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Posted - 2014.03.24 15:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
In that 2009 video they explain how the warpoint system was going to work.
So you would have to go out and earn a said amount of warpoints to call in a Tank a Fighter... final turret installation stage.
This was how DUST 514 setup it's original frame work around balancing mechanized units. The same as Titanfall.. You need to go out and score some points to call in your mechanized unit.
It was an extremely balanced idea... The problem people had with this was it made Tank and Vehicle skilling in general an Endgame vocation..
So you would want to get your infantry based skills better so you can score points to advance your position on the battlefield.
People are selfish though and think there should be 12 vehicles on the field before an objective is even taken or the first fight occurs.
Destroying any balance DUST 514 designed from Inception to deal with Tank and vehicle spam.
It's the only true way to balance vehicles... Will it happen? Probably not. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
3110
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Posted - 2014.03.24 15:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:You can balance vehicles with or without a pilot suit. If you balance it with the suit you require all pilots to wear it to be balanced and it becomes yet another SP and ISK sink.
If you balance without it, you can't introduce it into the game without unbalancing vehicles again.
So pilot suits are simply a bad idea. says the guy whos sp is all over the place, i have 18k into ads its core skills, and turrets. i dont have any suits and i just got some nova knives today eveything els is locked, pilot suits should be for pilots only. I don't think you understand. Pilot suits would simply add yet another skill tree that pilots would have to climb in order to fly effectively. We already have Vehicle Upgrades, Turrets, and Vehicle Command. We need a pilot suit tree like we need another hole in our heads and our wallets. Radar, or a data link allowing you to see enemy contacts encountered by your whole team and not just your squad. countermeasure, increased power/Cpu, ability to use more complex aircraft, module or the ability to ovrload systems. increased module effectiveness ect
The first three are nice things we can have without pilot suits. The third is already part of the Vehicle Command tree, The fourth and fifth are nice and can be implemented in the Vehicle Upgrade tree without suits.
We already have all the skill trees we need. Simply put a few more leaves on the existing trees. |
Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2071
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Posted - 2014.03.24 15:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
Waiyu Ren wrote:I don't think a Pilot suit will even be possible if it adds any bonus at all... Unless Vehicles are completely neutered to the point of uselessness first, which no one really wants, probably. If however you were prevented from calling or even acting as the primary operator of a Vehicle unless in a Pilot suit, and that suit had, at best, passive non-skill based bonuses such as a wider POV, incoming fire and proximity warnings? That would be do-able, and quite possibly better balanced than what we have now.
Capacitors, if i understand how they work, would maybe also help vehicles to need to fulfil roles other than meat grinder.
Some people already had SP in Pilotsuits after Uprising 1.5 I think. So I guess they will come sooner or later.
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
3432
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Posted - 2014.03.24 15:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Skihids wrote:DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:You can balance vehicles with or without a pilot suit. If you balance it with the suit you require all pilots to wear it to be balanced and it becomes yet another SP and ISK sink.
If you balance without it, you can't introduce it into the game without unbalancing vehicles again.
So pilot suits are simply a bad idea. says the guy whos sp is all over the place, i have 18k into ads its core skills, and turrets. i dont have any suits and i just got some nova knives today eveything els is locked, pilot suits should be for pilots only. I don't think you understand. Pilot suits would simply add yet another skill tree that pilots would have to climb in order to fly effectively. We already have Vehicle Upgrades, Turrets, and Vehicle Command. We need a pilot suit tree like we need another hole in our heads and our wallets.
I have 17 mil SP in Dropsuit Upgrades tree and its not done yet, plus my suits and weapons. We all have our SP sinks. I understand how much you put into vehicles as I've put 5 mil into them and have a long way to go.
Pilots should demand their suits to set them even farther apart from the infantry. Your suit should make you even better than some scrub running militia gear.
Adapt or Die // Republic Lance Commander // @ReesNoturana
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da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
560
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Posted - 2014.03.24 15:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aikuchi Tomaru wrote:Waiyu Ren wrote:I don't think a Pilot suit will even be possible if it adds any bonus at all... Unless Vehicles are completely neutered to the point of uselessness first, which no one really wants, probably. If however you were prevented from calling or even acting as the primary operator of a Vehicle unless in a Pilot suit, and that suit had, at best, passive non-skill based bonuses such as a wider POV, incoming fire and proximity warnings? That would be do-able, and quite possibly better balanced than what we have now.
Capacitors, if i understand how they work, would maybe also help vehicles to need to fulfil roles other than meat grinder. Some people already had SP in Pilotsuits after Uprising 1.5 I think. So I guess they will come sooner or later.
Knew a tanker that had and probably still has 10 million SP saved up just for the pilot suit. And this was back before 1.5
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster
3110
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Posted - 2014.03.24 17:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
l would love a way to separate dedicated pilots from militia users, but you can do that with the existing skill trees.
There are issues with putting skills into the suit rather than the vehicle itself. The first is you have to decide if the bonus is tied to the bonus or to the actual suit itself. That makes a difference because having to risk a prototype suit on top of the vehicle inflates the ISK cost dramatically. If it's a bonus you can run the basic and get the full skill benefit. In that case it's an SP sink but not a huge ISK sink.
Then you have to figure out what differences there are between different racial suits and how many suits you are going to have to skill up. If you fly both the Python and the Incubus do you need to skill two suits to prototype? |
CRNWLLC
Screwy Rabbit ULC
147
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Posted - 2014.03.24 17:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
I never understood all this talk of a "pilot" suit, considering the layout of DS cockpits.
My other dropsuit is a Python.
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da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
562
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Posted - 2014.03.24 20:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Nice one lol
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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DRaven DeMort
Valor Academy
81
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Posted - 2014.03.25 00:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Skihids wrote:DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:You can balance vehicles with or without a pilot suit. If you balance it with the suit you require all pilots to wear it to be balanced and it becomes yet another SP and ISK sink.
If you balance without it, you can't introduce it into the game without unbalancing vehicles again.
So pilot suits are simply a bad idea. says the guy whos sp is all over the place, i have 18k into ads its core skills, and turrets. i dont have any suits and i just got some nova knives today eveything els is locked, pilot suits should be for pilots only. I don't think you understand. Pilot suits would simply add yet another skill tree that pilots would have to climb in order to fly effectively. We already have Vehicle Upgrades, Turrets, and Vehicle Command. We need a pilot suit tree like we need another hole in our heads and our wallets. I have 17 mil SP in Dropsuit Upgrades tree and its not done yet, plus my suits and weapons. We all have our SP sinks. I understand how much you put into vehicles as I've put 5 mil into them and have a long way to go. Pilots should demand their suits to set them even farther apart from the infantry. Your suit should make you even better than some scrub running militia gear.
i really believe that you shouldn't be able to drive or pilot any vehicle without locking yourself into it. would keep blue berry rdvs from smashing vehicle, and it would stop tank spams and to some extent red line rails. |
da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
567
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Posted - 2014.03.25 00:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
DRaven DeMort wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:Skihids wrote:DRaven DeMort wrote:Skihids wrote:You can balance vehicles with or without a pilot suit. If you balance it with the suit you require all pilots to wear it to be balanced and it becomes yet another SP and ISK sink.
If you balance without it, you can't introduce it into the game without unbalancing vehicles again.
So pilot suits are simply a bad idea. says the guy whos sp is all over the place, i have 18k into ads its core skills, and turrets. i dont have any suits and i just got some nova knives today eveything els is locked, pilot suits should be for pilots only. I don't think you understand. Pilot suits would simply add yet another skill tree that pilots would have to climb in order to fly effectively. We already have Vehicle Upgrades, Turrets, and Vehicle Command. We need a pilot suit tree like we need another hole in our heads and our wallets. I have 17 mil SP in Dropsuit Upgrades tree and its not done yet, plus my suits and weapons. We all have our SP sinks. I understand how much you put into vehicles as I've put 5 mil into them and have a long way to go. Pilots should demand their suits to set them even farther apart from the infantry. Your suit should make you even better than some scrub running militia gear. i really believe that you shouldn't be able to drive or pilot any vehicle without locking yourself into it. would keep blue berry rdvs from smashing vehicle, and it would stop tank spams and to some extent red line rails.
I agree except for LAVs, anyone should be able to drive them,but maybe not as good as someone with a pilot suit on.
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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DRaven DeMort
Valor Academy
81
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Posted - 2014.03.25 00:40:00 -
[43] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Sounds like all the non pilots are in favor of another SP sink for pilots.
I suppose we could do the same with infantry and require a special AV suit separate from the rest of the suit skill tree to properly use AV.
i have yet to find an sp sink for ds |
DRaven DeMort
Valor Academy
81
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Posted - 2014.03.25 00:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
Skihids wrote:l would love a way to separate dedicated pilots from militia users, but you can do that with the existing skill trees.
There are issues with putting skills into the suit rather than the vehicle itself. The first is you have to decide if the bonus is tied to the skill level or to the actual suit itself. That makes a difference because having to risk a prototype suit on top of the vehicle inflates the ISK cost dramatically. If it's a bonus you can run the basic and get the full skill benefit. In that case it's an SP sink but not a huge ISK sink.
Then you have to figure out what differences there are between different racial suits and how many suits you are going to have to skill up. If you fly both the Python and the Incubus do you need to skill two suits to prototype?
yay circle talk! been awhile since i read it done so well. all those words and yet nothing was said. |
Waiyu Ren
Seeker of The Path
86
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Posted - 2014.03.25 05:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Well, given CCP's precedent with the Logi skill change and equipment nerfs, I'm sure vehicles will be dialed back if pilots suits are given a bonus to vehicle aspects. My ideas:
Suit Bonus: 2% increase to all resistances per level
Gallente: 2-3% increase to armor repair amount per level Caldari: 5% increase to shield extender amount per level Minmatar: 3-5% increase to vehicle agility (not speed) per level Amarr: 2-3% increase to base armor and armor plates per level
I like this, and I'm pretty sure you are right. If Pilot suits became a thing, then they would probably look like this to an extent. I still don't like the idea of hard number-bonuses though, I would much rather that a "unique" suit was actually unique in what it offered, but it's probably unavoidable.
My idea: Automatic pilot suit bonus: Augmented senses. The pilot plugs directly into the vehicle's Ai and sensor systems net, granting the following bonuses: 3rd person perspective and missile/proxy warning (even if not limiting operation to pilot-suited mercs only, I would still force them into a 1st person view and cut them off from any early warning system the vehicle had unless they wore the suit) Per level bonus: Would have to be racial, and probably non-vehicle class specific. If it's an Amarr suit, it needs to apply to all Amarr vehicles or the system would be too clunky.
Perhaps: Gallente: Repping rate bonus? Caldari: Recharge rate bonus? Minmatar: Booster increase bonus? Amarr: Capacitor charge extension? (see what i did there?)
I would set these bonuses to a rate equal to 1/5 of the relevant module, so that at proto level you would essentially gain a free module of that type. But then I would also make the fitting of ALL modules slightly more expensive. The suit itself I would give racial stats, but no slots other than a sidearm and one equipment. At the very most, I would simply make it a frontline fitting. It should exist to give a pilot a slight edge, not make vehicles broken, or turn them into nothing more than expensive EHP buffers without it....
The way I see it, vehicles are in a pretty good place. I wouldn't want to buff them, nor really nerf them. Those innate damage resistances can probably go though, given the lowered damage capabilities of their squishier opponents. (As a matter of fact, I think damage resistances in general are a really bad idea.)
Sigh. In the end this is probably all just pointless hot air. It would be far easier for CCP to simply remove the Pilot Suit entry than to hammer room for it in three whole skill trees plus vehicle game mechanics. I had an enormous amount of fun writing it though, so win?
Shouting doesn't make your opinion seem more valid, it just makes you seem more annoying.
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da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
570
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Posted - 2014.03.25 05:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Waiyu Ren wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Well, given CCP's precedent with the Logi skill change and equipment nerfs, I'm sure vehicles will be dialed back if pilots suits are given a bonus to vehicle aspects. My ideas:
Suit Bonus: 2% increase to all resistances per level
Gallente: 2-3% increase to armor repair amount per level Caldari: 5% increase to shield extender amount per level Minmatar: 3-5% increase to vehicle agility (not speed) per level Amarr: 2-3% increase to base armor and armor plates per level I like this, and I'm pretty sure you are right. If Pilot suits became a thing, then they would probably look like this to an extent. I still don't like the idea of hard number-bonuses though, I would much rather that a "unique" suit was actually unique in what it offered, but it's probably unavoidable. My idea: Automatic pilot suit bonus: Augmented senses. The pilot plugs directly into the vehicle's Ai and sensor systems net, granting the following bonuses: 3rd person perspective and missile/proxy warning (even if not limiting operation to pilot-suited mercs only, I would still force them into a 1st person view and cut them off from any early warning system the vehicle had unless they wore the suit) Per level bonus: Would have to be racial, and probably non-vehicle class specific. If it's an Amarr suit, it needs to apply to all Amarr vehicles or the system would be too clunky. Perhaps: Gallente: Repping rate bonus? Caldari: Recharge rate bonus? Minmatar: Booster increase bonus? Amarr: Capacitor charge extension? (see what i did there?) (Edit: To gain the bonus, a module of that type would need to be installed first, after which:)I would set these bonuses to a rate equal to 1/5 of the relevant module, so that at proto level you would essentially gain a free module of that type. But then I would also make the fitting of ALL modules slightly more expensive. The suit itself I would give racial stats, but no slots other than a sidearm and one equipment. At the very most, I would simply make it a frontline fitting. It should exist to give a pilot a slight edge, not make vehicles broken, or turn them into nothing more than expensive EHP buffers without it.... The way I see it, vehicles are in a pretty good place. I wouldn't want to buff them, nor really nerf them too much. Those innate damage resistances can probably go though, given the lowered damage capabilities of their squishier opponents. (As a matter of fact, I think damage resistances in general are a really bad idea.) Sigh. In the end this is probably all just pointless hot air. It would be far easier for CCP to simply remove the Pilot Suit entry than to hammer room for it in three whole skill trees plus vehicle game mechanics. I had an enormous amount of fun writing it though, so win?
Interesting.....
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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