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deezy dabest
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
255
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 01:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:deezy dabest wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Really I think the only issue is the programmers don't play the game, and the designers simply give them mandarin stickies saying... Flaylock too strong or Tanks too weak.
A Public Test server would fix that and would save everyones actual characters from getting lolraped by the eventual FOTM that spawns from every half baked idea that gets thrown live without testing. There is the all time rumor of Sony not allowing them to have a test server which is very possible when you look at how hard the regular releases consistently crash the PS3. The ultimate reason for no beta programs (other than the one we are in) most likely comes down to the cost of releasing patches and the mildly broken infrastructure of the game. They have fought to make everything they can server side and then been forced to pile the important things that will not work server side into the client leaving a pretty rag-tag set up. It is simply a case of poor planning in the start when they were forced to leave the carbon engine behind for an engine they had never used before. If that is the case then we just will have to be prepared for broken game updates ruining some aspect of the game until they add another update that may fix the old issue while simultaneously breaking the next thing. Oh well it's just a game, plenty of other games to play.
There will always be some aspect broken. Not because of CCP directly but because there is just no way to test for the way to test for how well the long time players have learned to find the exploit no matter what it is. All of the numbers are done in spread sheets and they probably have some great process for making them balanced ON SPREADSHEETS, but that just does not make up for several hundred people actively looking for the FOTM setup.
It is part of Dust, you can either chase the FOTM and ultimately have a bunch of wasted SP or you can become a better player by learning to use your role against the ever changing FOTM. I for one find it challenging and at the end of the day anyone that sticks to specializing will probably have a much more rewarding experience as they grow different roles and ultimately end up with amazing versatility.
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic
83
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Posted - 2014.03.23 01:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:deezy dabest wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Really I think the only issue is the programmers don't play the game, and the designers simply give them mandarin stickies saying... Flaylock too strong or Tanks too weak.
A Public Test server would fix that and would save everyones actual characters from getting lolraped by the eventual FOTM that spawns from every half baked idea that gets thrown live without testing. There is the all time rumor of Sony not allowing them to have a test server which is very possible when you look at how hard the regular releases consistently crash the PS3. The ultimate reason for no beta programs (other than the one we are in) most likely comes down to the cost of releasing patches and the mildly broken infrastructure of the game. They have fought to make everything they can server side and then been forced to pile the important things that will not work server side into the client leaving a pretty rag-tag set up. It is simply a case of poor planning in the start when they were forced to leave the carbon engine behind for an engine they had never used before. If that is the case then we just will have to be prepared for broken game updates ruining some aspect of the game until they add another update that may fix the old issue while simultaneously breaking the next thing. Oh well it's just a game, plenty of other games to play. There will always be some aspect broken. Not because of CCP directly but because there is just no way to test for the way to test for how well the long time players have learned to find the exploit no matter what it is. All of the numbers are done in spread sheets and they probably have some great process for making them balanced ON SPREADSHEETS, but that just does not make up for several hundred people actively looking for the FOTM setup. It is part of Dust, you can either chase the FOTM and ultimately have a bunch of wasted SP or you can become a better player by learning to use your role against the ever changing FOTM. I for one find it challenging and at the end of the day anyone that sticks to specializing will probably have a much more rewarding experience as they grow different roles and ultimately end up with amazing versatility.
That's a cop out though, I used Rail Rifle and tanks and CR day one of the patch and saw it was broken. When I first started at "Full Release" it was obvious that Caldari Shield Tanks were overpowered. When the armor buff hit, it was obvious they went overboard. They always go overboard. When the flaylock was too good, they went overboard. It's not hard to tweak unless you tweak gradually but they don't do that. They take a giant wrench and smash a rolex then say why doesn't it tick? Screw it we'll check back in 3 months. I know games will be buggy, I've played many, but the only games I've played that have consistently been this bad in a pvp environment (IE. a lobby shooter) are Korean fps rpgs. Maybe it's just the genre that is broken, as I haven't seen this issue outside of the limited field of games that are fps rpg lobby shooters. I haven't played their major competitor Planetside 2 but the grass does looke greener on the other side, and at least from appearances they don't say "Hold on scooter, you can't play with this toy until you waded through **** for 3 months" only to then once you have waded through the **** break the toy and say "Well now, sorry buddy, but maybe you should just play with this other toy once you have waded through another 3 months of ****." Ad infinitum.
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Bubba Brown
Militaires Sans Jeux
227
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Posted - 2014.03.23 04:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:deezy dabest wrote:I feel like it is going to come out that WP for damage to vehicles is for them to collect data on AV vs vehicles (as if 5 months did not provide enough data) and a fix will be coming SOON (i cant do the tm thing but you get it) aka right after everyone that came back for the 1.8 racial parity is gone again and this time for good. Hm, perhaps. Personally I think it's just a very helpful balancing step. It encourages people to actually play dedicated AV. Imagine this: An enemy rail tank comes over the top of a hill and starts raining hell down onto my team. So I decide to grab my FG, and start nailing him. He of course backs off when his health gets too low, regens, and comes back. So let's say I spend the whole game just keeping this tank deterred. Even though I was clearly helping my team, I'll probably end up going 10th place or so, and getting **** for a payout. So if you're just some blueberry, why bother? With the added WP, there's actually direct incentive for every blue to run AV.
the trick is making it worth it so instead of saying "damn, a tank, no fun this game", they say "ooooo! a warpoint pinata!" which leads to what eve combat is all about; escalation. dude drops tank, other team gets out AV and a tank, dude's friend gets a tank with some more teammates as AV and the entire thing turns into a massive clusterfug |
Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
321
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 05:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Really I think the only issue is the programmers don't play the game, and the designers simply give them mandarin stickies saying... Flaylock too strong or Tanks too weak.
A Public Test server would fix that and would save everyones actual characters from getting lolraped by the eventual FOTM that spawns from every half baked idea that gets thrown live without testing.
Edit: It would slow down updates surely, but who hear would of waited a month more on 1.7 if it meant tanks and rail rifles would have been toned down to a balanced level? I know I would. That and hot patching issues when they arise, but we all know no one in the company actually plays this game. I don't think that's a big issue at all. The most productive playtesting will never come from the people actively working on the game. They're waaaaaay too biased (obviously). Standard playtesting means you take someone who's never played your game (or, in this case, has perhaps never used this new feature you're adding or new build of the game), have them try it out, and then you take notes, and figure out what to change. Rinse, repeat. CCP Devs "playtesting" this game won't really accomplish much of anything.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
321
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Posted - 2014.03.23 05:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
danie sous wrote:Summ Dude wrote:I'll ask again please to see where a Dev said that 1.8 would feature Vehicle/AV changes. That was the original point of this thread, right? One of the posts on the bi-weekly feature/idea sticky a dev mentioned they would make changes. No specitics were given. I'll assume you're referring to this post, this part specifically:
CCP Logibro wrote:Tanks still feel too strong in 1.7 and AV is not strong enough to stop them - WeGÇÖll need to do something about MLT tanks. We will see to rebalance some PG/CPU for equipment and more. More details will come in a dev blog/forum post. I see no mention of 1.8 whatsoever.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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J4yne C0bb
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
269
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 05:28:00 -
[36] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:deezy dabest wrote:I feel like it is going to come out that WP for damage to vehicles is for them to collect data on AV vs vehicles (as if 5 months did not provide enough data) and a fix will be coming SOON (i cant do the tm thing but you get it) aka right after everyone that came back for the 1.8 racial parity is gone again and this time for good. Hm, perhaps. Personally I think it's just a very helpful balancing step. It encourages people to actually play dedicated AV. Imagine this: An enemy rail tank comes over the top of a hill and starts raining hell down onto my team. So I decide to grab my FG, and start nailing him. He of course backs off when his health gets too low, regens, and comes back. So let's say I spend the whole game just keeping this tank deterred. Even though I was clearly helping my team, I'll probably end up going 10th place or so, and getting **** for a payout. So if you're just some blueberry, why bother? With the added WP, there's actually direct incentive for every blue to run AV. Yeah, forge gunning for tanks can be a thankless job... it's easy to chase tanks around for an entire match, go KDR negative, and get a crap payout for not actually killing anything. This provides some incentive, at least.
CCP needs to give us our forge charge time back. I have doubts whether it would even help, but they can start with that, at least.
Min Logi | aka Punch R0ckgroin, Fatsuit
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Tailss Prower
501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit
200
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 07:36:00 -
[37] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Summ Dude wrote:Fyra Yacile wrote:After 2 weeks of 1.7 and Tank spam being rife a DEV said they were going to address Tank v AV balance in 1.8 ... Link please. I don't recall this happening, at all. The are lowering the total clip size of all nades to 2 from 3. This means you have one less AV nade available. In addition, I know that a lot of people run FG and Swarms with Damage Mods. Complex damage mods are going from 10% to 5%. If you stack 3 of them (like I do) then you are going from a 23% damage boost to a 11% damage boost (rounded out). On top of all of that, Hives are getting a nerf so running proto Nades and not getting them fast enough or swarm ammo fast enough and having less supply available is just sick. It's a triple angle nerf to AV no matter how you look at it. it's funny when someone bitches about losing 1 av nade now I can understand it from an infantry point of view but 90% of the time your sitting on top a nanohive SO WHY THE **** DO YOU CARE |
Tailss Prower
501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit
200
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 07:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
J4yne C0bb wrote:Summ Dude wrote:deezy dabest wrote:I feel like it is going to come out that WP for damage to vehicles is for them to collect data on AV vs vehicles (as if 5 months did not provide enough data) and a fix will be coming SOON (i cant do the tm thing but you get it) aka right after everyone that came back for the 1.8 racial parity is gone again and this time for good. Hm, perhaps. Personally I think it's just a very helpful balancing step. It encourages people to actually play dedicated AV. Imagine this: An enemy rail tank comes over the top of a hill and starts raining hell down onto my team. So I decide to grab my FG, and start nailing him. He of course backs off when his health gets too low, regens, and comes back. So let's say I spend the whole game just keeping this tank deterred. Even though I was clearly helping my team, I'll probably end up going 10th place or so, and getting **** for a payout. So if you're just some blueberry, why bother? With the added WP, there's actually direct incentive for every blue to run AV. Yeah, forge gunning for tanks can be a thankless job... it's easy to chase tanks around for an entire match, go KDR negative, and get a crap payout for not actually killing anything. This provides some incentive, at least. CCP needs to give us our forge charge time back. I have doubts whether it would even help, but they can start with that, at least. if you was firing any faster it would be unbalanced |
Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
1999
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 13:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:AV WPs are getting buffed, making AV more viable, encouraging the use of AV More AVers means that while they still may not be able to destroy vehicles (being addressed, I'm sure), they'll be able to chase them off with any effort.
With swarms that dont work at all. LOL. right.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
1999
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 13:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Really I think the only issue is the programmers don't play the game, and the designers simply give them mandarin stickies saying... Flaylock too strong or Tanks too weak.
A Public Test server would fix that and would save everyones actual characters from getting lolraped by the eventual FOTM that spawns from every half baked idea that gets thrown live without testing.
Edit: It would slow down updates surely, but who hear would of waited a month more on 1.7 if it meant tanks and rail rifles would have been toned down to a balanced level? I know I would. That and hot patching issues when they arise, but we all know no one in the company actually plays this game.
Or you know, made on PC where they could patch it whenever, run multiple test servers etc...
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
557
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 15:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Really I think the only issue is the programmers don't play the game, and the designers simply give them mandarin stickies saying... Flaylock too strong or Tanks too weak.
A Public Test server would fix that and would save everyones actual characters from getting lolraped by the eventual FOTM that spawns from every half baked idea that gets thrown live without testing.
Edit: It would slow down updates surely, but who hear would of waited a month more on 1.7 if it meant tanks and rail rifles would have been toned down to a balanced level? I know I would. That and hot patching issues when they arise, but we all know no one in the company actually plays this game. Or you know, made on PC where they could patch it whenever, run multiple test servers etc...
Agreed things would be going smoother, and the EVE players wouldn't hate this game.
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
803
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 17:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:AV WPs are getting buffed, making AV more viable, encouraging the use of AV More AVers means that while they still may not be able to destroy vehicles (being addressed, I'm sure), they'll be able to chase them off with any effort.
We still don't know how much WP we will get for Vehicle damage, and of course we don't know how long it will there. CCP removed that feature for a Reason...
So if we get not eough WP for damaging Vehicles nothing will changed (who would risk a 80K suit for wp/1000 damage??) If we get too much WP (or a reasonable amount) people will strt to exploit this as hell. Sadly thats it was the community is best at.
And when people start to abuse this CCP will let them as they don't punish exploiters, sooner or later they will then remove the WP again or will make them so low that its not worth again... |
Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
324
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:AV WPs are getting buffed, making AV more viable, encouraging the use of AV More AVers means that while they still may not be able to destroy vehicles (being addressed, I'm sure), they'll be able to chase them off with any effort. We still don't know how much WP we will get for Vehicle damage, and of course we don't know how long it will there. CCP removed that feature for a Reason... So if we get not eough WP for damaging Vehicles nothing will changed (who would risk a 80K suit for wp/1000 damage??) If we get too much WP (or a reasonable amount) people will strt to exploit this as hell. Sadly thats it was the community is best at. And when people start to abuse this CCP will let them as they don't punish exploiters, sooner or later they will then remove the WP again or will make them so low that its not worth again... What an incredibly lazy perspective. Also based in non-truth. CCP originally removed it due to farming, yes. They have since added a max WP cap feature that prevents this. They said as much.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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deezy dabest
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
258
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:deezy dabest wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:deezy dabest wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Really I think the only issue is the programmers don't play the game, and the designers simply give them mandarin stickies saying... Flaylock too strong or Tanks too weak.
A Public Test server would fix that and would save everyones actual characters from getting lolraped by the eventual FOTM that spawns from every half baked idea that gets thrown live without testing. There is the all time rumor of Sony not allowing them to have a test server which is very possible when you look at how hard the regular releases consistently crash the PS3. The ultimate reason for no beta programs (other than the one we are in) most likely comes down to the cost of releasing patches and the mildly broken infrastructure of the game. They have fought to make everything they can server side and then been forced to pile the important things that will not work server side into the client leaving a pretty rag-tag set up. It is simply a case of poor planning in the start when they were forced to leave the carbon engine behind for an engine they had never used before. If that is the case then we just will have to be prepared for broken game updates ruining some aspect of the game until they add another update that may fix the old issue while simultaneously breaking the next thing. Oh well it's just a game, plenty of other games to play. There will always be some aspect broken. Not because of CCP directly but because there is just no way to test for the way to test for how well the long time players have learned to find the exploit no matter what it is. All of the numbers are done in spread sheets and they probably have some great process for making them balanced ON SPREADSHEETS, but that just does not make up for several hundred people actively looking for the FOTM setup. It is part of Dust, you can either chase the FOTM and ultimately have a bunch of wasted SP or you can become a better player by learning to use your role against the ever changing FOTM. I for one find it challenging and at the end of the day anyone that sticks to specializing will probably have a much more rewarding experience as they grow different roles and ultimately end up with amazing versatility. That's a cop out though, I used Rail Rifle and tanks and CR day one of the patch and saw it was broken. When I first started at "Full Release" it was obvious that Caldari Shield Tanks were overpowered. When the armor buff hit, it was obvious they went overboard. They always go overboard. When the flaylock was too good, they went overboard. It's not hard to tweak unless you tweak gradually but they don't do that. They take a giant wrench and smash a rolex then say why doesn't it tick? Screw it we'll check back in 3 months. I know games will be buggy, I've played many, but the only games I've played that have consistently been this bad in a pvp environment (IE. a lobby shooter) are Korean fps rpgs. Maybe it's just the genre that is broken, as I haven't seen this issue outside of the limited field of games that are fps rpg lobby shooters. I haven't played their major competitor Planetside 2 but the grass does looke greener on the other side, and at least from appearances they don't say "Hold on scooter, you can't play with this toy until you waded through **** for 3 months" only to then once you have waded through the **** break the toy and say "Well now, sorry buddy, but maybe you should just play with this other toy once you have waded through another 3 months of ****." Ad infinitum. I guess for an analogy we aren't talking the difference between the G36 and AK 47 in COD4, every update it is the difference between the Skorpion and the P90 in every update where something is changed. A flavor of the month in many games is an issue of slight optimal performance. We are talking about how a swarm launcher tickles a tank for christ's sake. Edit: If you aren't familiar with the plethora of Korean made f2p games I'm being pretty cruel comparing this game to them, they are some of the worst made games that aren't coming from one guys basement, and some games from one guys basement are better than those turds.
With the cost of patch cycles they are somewhat forced to go to extreme ends a few times cause patching it every few days or every week or whatever is not viable. Also, lets face it, these cycles create amazing SP sinks for the players that are not familiar with this process.
Growth in this game is not just SP, or stashing ISK, but learning to adapt within the game. If you have been around for more than 3 updates and you still whine about OP and UP weapons then you need to open your eyes, its part of the game. CCP has to adapt to their enviroment with Sony, Unreal, and a whole lot of workers like we have to adapt to weapons and suits getting changed up. The only difference is there is millions on the line for them and at best a couple hundred bucks for us.
We are dealing with the only huge exception to that where they have taken those extremes to new levels most likely because of a combo of new management and work schedules getting really screwed up through dealing with multiple holiday seasons. I for one am just as tired of tank spam as the next person (except for tankers of course) and seriously hope they throw a hotfix out within a couple of weeks to fix this crap but only time will tell.
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da GAND
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
557
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:AV WPs are getting buffed, making AV more viable, encouraging the use of AV More AVers means that while they still may not be able to destroy vehicles (being addressed, I'm sure), they'll be able to chase them off with any effort. We still don't know how much WP we will get for Vehicle damage, and of course we don't know how long it will there. CCP removed that feature for a Reason... So if we get not eough WP for damaging Vehicles nothing will changed (who would risk a 80K suit for wp/1000 damage??) If we get too much WP (or a reasonable amount) people will strt to exploit this as hell. Sadly thats it was the community is best at. And when people start to abuse this CCP will let them as they don't punish exploiters, sooner or later they will then remove the WP again or will make them so low that its not worth again... What an incredibly lazy perspective. Also based in non-truth. CCP originally removed it due to farming, yes. They have since added a max WP cap feature that prevents this. They said as much.
I can't wait to see if and when someone finds a way to exploit it.
After Uprisings release the forums were a bad place, I'll never forget how CCP screwed up so badly.
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