Do the same for one liner troll posters and it would be about right.

I never said they are balanced, I do say that they aren't indestructible with teamwork and coordinated attacks. When people actually try it works almost every time but when one dude tries to pop a HAV is isn't going to work. What is the point of HAV if they are easily soloed by every Joe-blow merc with no skills in AV. There is a balance problem but it isn't as bad as we make it out to be, try more and cry less is all I am saying.

I'm not saying I haven't spent a TON of ISK trying.

There is zero incentive to win matches in Dust. I am willing to throw ISK at a GD good fight, but tanks aren't one of them.

Swarms are garbage, AV nades even at proto could be tanked with ease.

I have a heavy alt that I will kill tanks with, but even then you find yourself dealing with infantry that is roaming around without a care in the world because everyone is ducking for cover from tanks.

They are simply too much of a force multiplier in pubs when you control less than 50% of your team.

I've solo'd more tanks with RE's in this build than I have been credited for tank kills in my 250K AV suit. To me this is an issue.

Any person who tries to argue that AV vs HAV is even remotely balanced should have an asterisk next to their name.

It would save a lot of time determining who is full of **** or not.

Don't get me wrong, there is a problem but it isn't as bad as we make it out to be. No, it shouldn't take an entire squad to pop one vehicle but it should take a few guys trying. A good squad with good teamwork that has competent mercs working in unison and focused on one thing that support each other doesn't have many problems. That is why the best teams are the best, they do it correctly. Vehicles in closed beta were OP, except for free LAV that were one AV nade pops, they are nowhere near that way now. Using cover and tactics negates a lot of HAV damage. One merc as bait and the other two applying damage does wonders. Yes, I can solo some HAVs but not all. Yes, some pilots are OP when in HAVs but it is the pilot not so much the HAV because good pilots are good and make wise choices.

It all comes down to how good the squad is trying to kill the HAV and how good the pilot is, if either are sub par then the other side wins almost every time. I am not, have not and will not say that the vehicle/AV dichotomy is not borked up and needs to be tweaked a little but I will say that is as much the infantries fault as it is OP HAVs. I don't want to invalidate some guys way of playing because something is difficult. It is like saying I can't solo a battleship in a frigate and they need to be nerfed, every thing has its place but finding the right place is sometimes difficult. It is very sad to see people say they don't even try because they will lose ISK. Talk about being risk adverse carebears. Easy is not fun and the most difficult fights I have had in this game are always the most fun. I want to drop out of matches when we roll the other team because it so boring that I makes me want to turn the game off.

New Eden has never been call easy and if you are not willing to lose ISK then maybe you should go back to high sec mining. The game is about risk vs reward and if you aren't willing to risk then you shouldn't be rewarded. I am not trying to be an ass but there is times when you are going to lose, no one wins at everything every time and dropping out only empowers pilots to keep doing what they are doing, not trying is letting them win and if you aren't willing to fight the hard fight then this isn't the game for you. When I say you I am not singling you out, I am using the word you as a reference to the community as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, there is a problem but it isn't as bad as we make it out to be. No, it shouldn't take an entire squad to pop one vehicle but it should take a few guys trying. A good squad with good teamwork that has competent mercs working in unison and focused on one thing that support each other doesn't have many problems. That is why the best teams are the best, they do it correctly. Vehicles in closed beta were OP, except for free LAV that were one AV nade pops, they are nowhere near that way now. Using cover and tactics negates a lot of HAV damage. One merc as bait and the other two applying damage does wonders. Yes, I can solo some HAVs but not all. Yes, some pilots are OP when in HAVs but it is the pilot not so much the HAV because good pilots are good and make wise choices.

It all comes down to how good the squad is trying to kill the HAV and how good the pilot is, if either are sub par then the other side wins almost every time. I am not, have not and will not say that the vehicle/AV dichotomy is not borked up and needs to be tweaked a little but I will say that is as much the infantries fault as it is OP HAVs. I don't want to invalidate some guys way of playing because something is difficult. It is like saying I can't solo a battleship in a frigate and they need to be nerfed, every thing has its place but finding the right place is sometimes difficult. It is very sad to see people say they don't even try because they will lose ISK. Talk about being risk adverse carebears. Easy is not fun and the most difficult fights I have had in this game are always the most fun. I want to drop out of matches when we roll the other team because it so boring that I makes me want to turn the game off.

New Eden has never been call easy and if you are not willing to lose ISK then maybe you should go back to high sec mining. The game is about risk vs reward and if you aren't willing to risk then you shouldn't be rewarded. I am not trying to be an ass but there is times when you are going to lose, no one wins at everything every time and dropping out only empowers pilots to keep doing what they are doing, not trying is letting them win and if you aren't willing to fight the hard fight then this isn't the game for you. When I say you I am not singling you out, I am using the word you as a reference to the community as a whole.

Risk v reward? Your 3mil lifetime investment and 100,000 ISK get you a weapon capable of standing toe to toe with 2 full proto squads and come out on top every single time.

And you seriously bring up risk v reward as a crux for your argument? As a tanker?! Lmao, get a clue

Ah, but you won't have triple stacked complex damage mods and a lightning quick TTK to hide behind. So you won't, in fact, be able to turn around and just kill me. That will take more time. More time in which I'll kill you.

Yeah instead of damage mods I'll now stack shield, and 1 charged shot from a proto scram rifle will still destroy most standard suits damage mods or not.

That still does nothing to negate my point.

You cannot list one infantry player who has ever survived concentrated amounts of fire and/or teamwork from a group of people who are both competent, and equally skilled as the person they are fighting.

Want to know why that's terrible game balance?

If there is an item that allows me to survive an entire group of people working against me, why would I use anything else? Why would anyone?

If there is a mechanic that makes it to where all other options are completely inferior to the other, it is broken. Why do you think the Rifles are being nerfed?

Well, I could do that...
Or I could spam tanks with my manpower and completely deny the field to everything.

which happens to be more effective than teamwork...

Sorry, but no dice.

Should not take 50+mil SP worth of mercs to kill one 3 - 5mil SP merc.

Next.

Ok, robot devil, you are so full of ****, I read your posts and literally just shake my head. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about STANDARD tanks vs proto AV. And since I actually do play this game, I will use my stats as a forger pro 5 for this argument.

You are trying to convince the community that a standard tank should not be soloable by a pro 5 forge gunner? Seriously? A 3 mil sp investment into tanks gets you your std hav, enh hardeners, and proto turret. I invest 3 mil into my FG and I can get prof 5, reload 4, ammo 4.

So literally you get the frame, modules, and weap for what I invest into just my gun. Every ******* tank in this current build should be absolutely soloable by a single person with proto AV. With complex modules the tank should be tough for 1person to solo, but not impossible.

Infantry does not need to adapt nor change our expectations, you simply need to wake the **** up. What you should be doing is soliciting CCP to add adv and proto tanks, which should be increasingly more difficult for AV to bring down. Adv tanks should take a couple AVers and cost more, proto should take teamwork and be aboutthe price of 1.6.....But your scrub ass std tank should absolutely get the **** beat out of it by a single proto AVer.

Our squad of six just rolled almost every HAV we saw with few problems.

Try teamwork and coordination, works every time.

What was your squad composition? Was it lolpub match? Sure a squad of designated AVers can devastate a battlefield. But it shouldn't take a squad to down a standard level tank. Were you using the cbr swarms and dau FG? Or were you using proto? Did you win the matche, all of them? No one is saying Teamwork doesn't work, we are saying it shouldn't have to take a team effort to down std vehicles.

the objective of the game is to win, more often than not your team cannot afford to dedicate an entire squad to AV. Go play ambush, unless your AVers are going to be rolling in tanks they will get smashed, basically whoever wins vehicle cap wins the match. In Dom you can camp and shut down most tanks but redline rails are untouchable. In skirmish they can simply avoid the traps and tanks will slow any infantry movement.

AV is incredibly UP given that we are talking about STD tanks/vehicles.

I think what has most people upset are the facts that CCP has acknowledged that vehicles are not balanced, somehow they thought Nerfing AV grenades was a good idea, and that sometime in the future there will be adv and proto level tanks. Imagine if nothing changes for vehicles after 1.8. And they add the racial variants and higher level tanks....

So infantry is harder to kill with infantry weapons, sentinels are especially harder to kill all around, vehicles are harder to kill with AV weapons.... but infantry will still be dying to vehicles at the same rate. Did you miss this or was this intentional?

Couple of forges and a swarm launcher and then three assault/logi, public contracts. It wasn't an entire squad of AV it was at most three merc and most of the time it was two. We won probably 75%. We played all three kinds of matches and only lost to infantry, the last game we played the reds called in HAVs at the end of the match and we only had a chance to pop one and they did run over us at the end with HAV but the match was over the quitters had already quit because we were losing.

I am and have acknowledged that the balance is out of whack but they are not near as bad as we, here on the forums, make it out to be. Redline HAVs are a problem because there is no way to counter them but that is the only reason. I would say that the AV nade nerf is part of a bigger plan, I don't know what it is but I would say there is a reason that CCP deemed good.

I would say that the AV nade nerf is part of a bigger plan, I don't know what it is but I would say there is a reason that CCP deemed good.

This is nice, but its simply a delusional thought from fantasy island at this point. Thinking that CCP has magically learned how to balance things and have a plan is simply too optimistic for me at this point. They have repeatedly ****** things up, in major ways. I have no reason to believe this is any different.

I'm going to win the vehicle vs AV battle the only way infantry really can, by not playing the game. You tankers can play sci-fi World of Tanks and I'll go find a FPS to play. Everyone will be happy

I am not saying it will be good, I am saying that they do things so they can do other things later. I am not saying anything else but it is probably part of a bigger plan. Nothing else, no hidden meanings, just that they probably are doing it so they can do something else with it later. That is all. That is my only point, not saying it is balanced will be balanced or that it is correct. That one statement only has one meaning that I am trying to convey and it is that they probably have a reason. That is it.

heres the bigger plan for a lot of folks.

read the sig.

Our squad of six just rolled almost every HAV we saw with few problems.