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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9869
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Posted - 2014.03.10 03:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
In 1.8's efforts to deal with the TTK issue, it creates new set of rifle balance issues with the damage per second of rifle of the same type (particularly the assault type), and this is just the tip of the iceberg; there has been deep balance issues with the rifles for quite a long time. The burst, breach, and tactical ARs have been very bad weapons for many builds.
For background, I think it is necessary that everyone understands what is meant by type, and CCP's plan for the racial "assault rifles" before moving forward. This is a quote from CCP Remnant on what rifle types and variants.
"The idea being that each race will have it's base variant be Assault, (Gallente) Burst (Minmatar), Breach (Caldari) or Tactical (Amarr) and then the variants are a specific race's take on the others using their own tech. So, you'd get an Assault Rail Rifle that attempts to somewhat mimic the behavior of the Gallente Assault Rifle and a Tactical Assault Rifle that attempts to mimic the Amarr Scrambler Rifle and so on."
It is also important to know the ranges of weapons of different damage profiles. Can be found here, from 1.7 weapon dev blog.
Assault type
Assault rifle [should really be renamed to plasma rifle] (hybrid-plasma damage profile: short range)
Assault scrambler rifle (laser damage profile: medium to long range)
Assault rail rifle (hybrid-railgun damage profile: long range)
Assault combat rifle (projectile damage profile: short-medium range)
Tactical type
Scrambler rifle (laser: medium to long range)
Tactical assault rifle (hybrid-plasma: short range)
*Future tactical variants for RR (hybrid-railgun: long range)
*Future tactical variants for CR (projectile: short-medium range)
Burst type
Combat rifle (projectile: short-medium range)
Burst assault rifle (hybrid-plasma: short range)
*Future burst variants for RR (hybrid-railgun: long range)
*Future burst variants for SCR (laser: medium to long range)
Breach type
Rail rifle (hybrid-railgun: long range)
Breach assault rifle (hybrid-plasma: short range)
*Future breach variants for SCR (laser: medium to long range)
*Future breach variants for CR (projectile: short-medium range)
[Comparison]
So we have identified the types, and their comparative ranges (short to long, everything in between) within the type. Now lets compare the rifles by type using 1.8 stats. All stats prototype.
Assault
AR: 412.5 DPS, shortest range (45 optimal/78 optimal)
aCR: 420, short-medium range (56/84)
aSCR: 420.59, medium-long range (56/90)
aRR: 400, longest range (75/102)
Tactical
tAR: 462 DPS (acheivable without modded controller), 69.3 damage per shot, restrictive ROF (you can tap R1 faster than it can shoot). Shortest range range (57/84)
SCR: 841.17 DPS (not acheivable without modded controller), 71.5 damage per shot, non-restricive ROF. Medium-long range (75/96)
Burst
buAR: 474.38 DPS, shortest range (50/78)
CR: 594 DPS, short-medium range (67/84)
Breach
brAR: 330, shortest range (46/78)
RR: 397.69, longest range (75/102)
[Conclusion]
The assault SCR is OP compared to the AR; has both more DPS, on top of more range.
The assault CR is OP compared to the AR; has both more DPS, on top of more range.
The assault RR does have less damage per second in exchange for range, but it gets 30 meters more optimal to deal full damage in exchange for only 12.5 less damage per second. The aRR gets the much better end of the deal.
The tactical AR sucks compared to the SCR. SCR has more damage per shot, more rate of fire, way more range, the charge shot ability, better hipfire accuracy; unless you're really really bad at managing overheat, there is no reason to use the tac AR over the SCR.
The burst AR sucks compare to the CR. CR has more massively more DPS, and more range.
The breach AR sucks compared to the RR. Less range, less DPS, less magazine size, there's just no reason to ever use the breach AR.
While not of the same type, the AR and RR are comparable because they are both automatic. The AR has about 14 points more damage per second, but the RR gets 30 meters more optimal range to do full damage in. While it is a tradeoff, it seems far from equitable; the RR gets the better end of that deal.
All weapons of the AR family pretty much suck.
[Solutions]
The main thing is the DPS vs range is not something CCP seems to actively think of as a tradeoff for weapons. Generally If a weapon has more DPS than another of the same type, it should have less range; likewise, if a weapon has less range, it should have more DPS.
The AR weapon family has the least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the highest DPS within their types.
The CR weapon has the 2nd least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd highest DPS within their types.
The SCR weapon has the 2nd most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd lowest DPS within their types.
The RR weapon has the most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the lowest DPS within their types.
Rifle balance has been an issue for so long. This issue deserves an overhaul.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Denn Maell
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
172
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Posted - 2014.03.10 04:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good stuff.
On the note of ranges, lets have the optimal/falloff range profiles from Eve.
Blasters= poor optimal; poor falloff
Rails= high optimal; poor falloff
Projectiles= poor optimal; high falloff
Lasers= Moderate optimal; moderate falloff (sorry haven't used them in Eve too much this is probably wrong)
The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field:
One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
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Martyr Saboteur
Amarrtyrs
234
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Posted - 2014.03.10 04:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sigh.
You're slipping KAGE.
You still make nicely presented posts though...
I misread something... NVM. You're good.
Edit again: Nope. I read it correctly.
Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
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Kitt 514
True North.
142
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo. |
Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
1565
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
This, though I do agree with all the OPs points. If other things are taken into account other than DPS, they are a bit closer. The current scrambler rifle is in a good spot, no OP, but very effective when in the right suit. As a Plasma rifle user I do feel the variants need more love. Ideally each weapon would have viable variants that weren't too powerful. Balancing 16 different weapons can't be easy and I hope they plan on making weapon tweaking easier and more common in the future.
Oh and the Assault Plasma Rifle should be the king of cqc, with the combat rifle in close second.
Ion pistol in 1.8? Really, is that it? When is that? SoonGäó514
"No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
League of Infamy
703
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:Lasers= Moderate optimal; moderate falloff (sorry haven't used them in Eve too much this is probably wrong)
Mega Pulse Laser II: 24km + 8km
800mm Repeating Cannon II: 4.8km + 19.2km
Neutron Blaster Cannon II: 7.2km + 10km
425mm Railgun II: 57.6km + 24km (note that this is comparing apples to oranges)
Selling dust codes!
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
795
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
Indeed. This is where the argument falls apart. These weapons handle completely differently. You cannot simply look only at range & rof and decide this weapon is better than that weapon.
Now you have all the different weapons plus all their different variants to try and balance. Why CCP created so many variants of the weapons (especially the AR) is beyond me, made their life extremely hard. Would have been best to introduce all weapons in their vanilla form and balance accordingly then slowly add variants. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9874
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
I am a SCR user who strongly believes the SCR is not OP compared to the other rifles, but the tactical AR just sucks by comparison. In regards to overheat, it takes about 15 shots without Amarr assault skills to overheat. The Tactical AR's has an 18 round magazine; only able to fire 3 more rounds before reloading than the SCR can before overheating.
There is no way a 0.25 spool up time even comes close to closing the massive gulf of effectiveness between the breach AR and the RR. The spool up time is a non-factor if you start shooting before the enemy notices you, and can easily be mitigated by pre-spooling (repeatedly tapping R1 in close range situations) if you know the enemy is around. Even when the spool up does make a difference, it hardy justifies he breach AR's general poor performance.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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RedZer0 MK1
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
199
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Posted - 2014.03.10 08:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
822
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Posted - 2014.03.10 09:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
In my mind, I see the AR as a high DPS spray and pray weapon with low range. Its the weapon of choice for entering a room. So keep its 1.7 stats and Nerf the other weapons as they are doing.
CR needs a 0.1-0.2 second delay between bursts.
Scrambler rifle should function as a pulse laser. So reduce the range slightly, make it automatic with the RR ROF. Adjust overheat accordingly.
RR has the longest range, so it should have the lowest DPS. Therefore, make it a tactical rifle instead of breach. The spool up and down plays into this perfectly. Increase its per shot damage as necessary. Have it only fire at full charge so it cannot be spammed.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9876
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Posted - 2014.03.10 09:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons.
Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weaons aren't worth using by comparison (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimick variants. Mimick variants already cost more, and reuire more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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General12912
Gallente Marine Corps
90
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Posted - 2014.03.10 09:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
the SCR's heating issues really doesnt matter. it rare for one to die of overheat once one gets the hang of the gun. the ASCR's overheat is so slow, it requires you to fire two clips to cause overheat.
for the RR: you mean the charge up time that is less than a second? -_-
the CR's reload speed makes up for the ammo it blows through.
the fact is, the AR shouldnt be that gun that is the second best at everything anymore. with all the racial rifles taking on their racial characteristics, the AR needs to do so as well. its already the shortest ranged rifle out of the bunch and it loses damage the farther the projectiles go out. now it needs to be better than the other rifles as far as TTK at its effective (not maximum) range
Assault Gk.0
Gallente Federation Patriot
General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
678
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Posted - 2014.03.10 10:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
I never found the SCR overheating a big deal nor the charge for RR. Technically you are right BUT
The SCR gets the same amount of shot like the TacAR, but a lost faster for way more DPS at longer Range and tighter hip fire = non issue if compared to the TacAR.
Overheating for the ASCR is really a non factor...and believe it or the AR has overheating as well (and if I read the data correct more than the ASCR but i might be wrong here).
The RR can be easily precharged so its a non issue as well, but even if you don't bother to precharge you can easily win 1v1 vs AR's thanks to tighter hip fire. The combination of high damage, with pretty close DPS and way better hip fire makes really up for the charge that only affects dps in the every first second and is less than human reaction time.
The CR yes it eats through ammo like crazy, but in 1 on 1 engagements only the SCR is able to beat the CR in effectiveness. Regardless if CQC or mid-range fights on lang range fights it gets clearly beaten by the RR.
The OP is pretty spot on with his analysis and I am saying this since we get the first numbers on the new rifles pre 1.7... |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9883
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Martyr Saboteur wrote:Sigh.
You're slipping KAGE.
You still make nicely presented posts though...
I misread something... NVM. You're good.
Edit again: Nope. I read it correctly.
I sure love how specific this is 
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9900
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Posted - 2014.03.11 20:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
There is no reason to use the AR or any AR variant in 1.8
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
528
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Posted - 2014.03.11 21:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
You forget WAY too much factors.
ONE : PG/CPU use.
Why a weapons should takes 92 CPU and 20 PG when one is taking only 8 PG and 60 CPU ?
Second : Recoil, overheat, Damage Profile. (CR is the most Op because of this)
When one is making -5% to shield and 10% bonus on armor.
While the other deals 20% bonus on shield (Which almost never go up to 400) and 20% penality (Try to get down 1000 armor.)
Reload time / Mag / spread / Accuracy / ads / dumb fire accuracy / zoom level.
You see ? You can't just use Range / Damage / RoF to make your comparaison. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9901
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Posted - 2014.03.11 21:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:You forget WAY too much factors.
ONE : PG/CPU use.
Why a weapons should takes 92 CPU and 20 PG when one is taking only 8 PG and 60 CPU ?
Second : Recoil, overheat, Damage Profile. (CR is the most Op because of this)
When one is making -5% to shield and 10% bonus on armor.
While the other deals 20% bonus on shield (Which almost never go up to 400) and 20% penality (Try to get down 1000 armor.)
Reload time / Mag / spread / Accuracy / ads / dumb fire accuracy / zoom level.
You see ? You can't just use Range / Damage / RoF to make your comparaison.
Mentioned overheat.
Recoil is a non-issue for most things except the RR, and the advantages far outweigh that disadvantage.
Guessing by "dumbfire" you mean hipfire, in which case the differences aren't significant. The SCR vs tAR is he only instance where it is significant, and it favors the SCR yet again.
The CR damage profile is an issue, but that is an issue with projectiles in general that needs to be handled. All other damage profiles have a fair tradeoff.
Zoom levels are fairly even.
Magazine sizes for weapons of the same type are fairly close, with the exception of RR vs brAR, and SCR vs tAR. The SCR's overheat limits shots fired in quick succession to being comparable to the magazine size of tAR.
I never said the range vs DPS should be the only balancing factors (perhaps I should add a disclaimer), but they certainly are the most important ones.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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The-Errorist
556
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Posted - 2014.03.12 06:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Awesome post and all the other issues have been addressed so this is an awesome thread. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9923
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Posted - 2014.03.12 22:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:Awesome post and all the other issues have been addressed so this is an awesome thread.
Thanks
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
1426
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Posted - 2014.03.13 02:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
So the AR is in the middle of the road for fitting cost. It is less than the Rail but more than the Combat. It has a 60 bullet clip (highest) and the shortest of range. In a game where shields are so much less than armor (numbers value wise) it has the less desirable damage profile. It has no assets and no drawbacks. Therefore it should be the worst?
I am not advocating a buff for ARs, I think the other weapons just still need to be scaled back, especially the Combat Rifle. The combat rifle has lower fitting cost and faster reload than the Submachine Gun at no real cost to performance.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1494
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Posted - 2014.03.13 06:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Good use of data but a big problem occurs when you look at the damage profiles.
I think the reason so many people see the CR/RR as OP is because the overall meta has shifted from Shields to Armor in the past few patches. GalLogi prior to 1.7 was pretty rampant because it was the best counter to the AR spam that was going on. Then the CR/RR came about and were right away doing ~20% more damage to armor over the AR.
Although, it's pretty ridiculous that something like the ACR has (a) more DPS (b) more range, (c) lower fitting costs, and (d) more preferable damage profile over the AR. I only have Prof. I on CR but it's infinitely superior to my Prof. V AR. Armor tankers drop like flies, and shields are never really >500 and thus never really make a huge difference. All that AND its easier to fit than the AR. What gives?
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Lunatic Kota
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
35
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:Good use of data but a big problem occurs when you look at the damage profiles.
I think the reason so many people see the CR/RR as OP is because the overall meta has shifted from Shields to Armor in the past few patches. GalLogi prior to 1.7 was pretty rampant because it was the best counter to the AR spam that was going on. Then the CR/RR came about and were right away doing ~20% more damage to armor over the AR.
Although, it's pretty ridiculous that something like the ACR has (a) more DPS (b) more range, (c) lower fitting costs, and (d) more preferable damage profile over the AR. I only have Prof. I on CR but it's infinitely superior to my Prof. V AR. Armor tankers drop like flies, and shields are never really >500 and thus never really make a huge difference. All that AND its easier to fit than the AR. What gives?
I think with the nerf/TTK issue things are definately going to change. Everyone is talking about shield/armor tanking and how to find a fair advantage to the two. I think in 1.8 resistances will place a key role as well as the Shield/Armor Delay and Repair Rate. Start looking more into recharge and repair rate for 1.8.
There's a message in my Cheerios!
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9944
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Posted - 2014.03.15 02:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Fix the pew pews!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Hynox Xitio
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
434
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Posted - 2014.03.15 03:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Just make the CR like the battle rifle from Halo, I doubt anyone would complain. If they do then they just don't like classic guns.
Unleash the Fogwoggler
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
295
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Posted - 2014.03.15 04:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s. 
So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9952
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Posted - 2014.03.15 04:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s. So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself.
Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be apposed to it. I certainly hope the tactical variant of RRs won't get even more range than the regular ones when it arrives (though I guess it could be balanced).
What I'm basically arguing is that rifles within the same type should be balanced against each other, for example a tAR shouldn't suck against a SCR; the tAR's less range should be a tradeoff for something like more damage, and not less like it currently has.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
296
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Posted - 2014.03.15 04:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Summ Dude wrote:Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s. So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself. Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be apposed to it. I certainly hope the tactical variant of RRs won't get even more range than the regular ones when it arrives (though I guess it could be balanced). What I'm basically arguing is that rifles within the same type should be balanced against each other, for example a tAR shouldn't suck against a SCR; the tAR's less range should be a tradeoff for something like more damage, and not less like it currently has.
Right right, and I'm with you on all that. But keeping the ranges the same across variants would help to reinforce that racial style, as well as reinforcing the distinction between the base rifle, it's variant, and the rifle that the variant is mimicking.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9952
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Posted - 2014.03.15 04:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Summ Dude wrote:Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s. So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself. Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be apposed to it. I certainly hope the tactical variant of RRs won't get even more range than the regular ones when it arrives (though I guess it could be balanced). What I'm basically arguing is that rifles within the same type should be balanced against each other, for example a tAR shouldn't suck against a SCR; the tAR's less range should be a tradeoff for something like more damage, and not less like it currently has. Right right, and I'm with you on all that. But keeping the ranges the same across variants would help to reinforce that racial style, as well as reinforcing the distinction between the base rifle, it's variant, and the rifle that the variant is mimicking.
I think I agree with you.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
296
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Posted - 2014.03.15 05:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Summ Dude wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Summ Dude wrote:Nice post Kagehoshi, enjoy yet another of my +1s. So, are you arguing that all the variants of a certain rifle should have the same range? i.e. AR and TAR would have the same range. Because that's an idea that I've half-heartedly kicked around myself. Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be apposed to it. I certainly hope the tactical variant of RRs won't get even more range than the regular ones when it arrives (though I guess it could be balanced). What I'm basically arguing is that rifles within the same type should be balanced against each other, for example a tAR shouldn't suck against a SCR; the tAR's less range should be a tradeoff for something like more damage, and not less like it currently has. Right right, and I'm with you on all that. But keeping the ranges the same across variants would help to reinforce that racial style, as well as reinforcing the distinction between the base rifle, it's variant, and the rifle that the variant is mimicking. I think I agree with you.
You think? Got it.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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lAssassinl Zer0
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2014.03.15 19:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Your conclusion are not fully right
I means Ascr takes 12 PG.
Assault rifle (advanced) takes how much ? Way less.
Damage profile is really in favor to Armor in the actualy Meta. (RR and CR and Explosive) .
But i agree Ascr could be a little lowered in range. (Maybe agianst less PG requirement.) |
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10011
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Posted - 2014.03.18 14:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
1.8 is coming, it is the DOOOOOOM of the AR!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2760
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Posted - 2014.03.20 01:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:1.8 is coming, it is the DOOOOOOM of the AR!
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM.
Ahem, carry on.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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The-Errorist
570
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
lAssassinl Zer0 wrote:Your conclusion are not fully right
I means Ascr takes 12 PG.
Assault rifle (advanced) takes how much ? Way less.
Damage profile is really in favor to Armor in the actualy Meta. (RR and CR and Explosive) .
But i agree Ascr could be a little lowered in range. (Maybe agianst less PG requirement.)
Having a higher fitting requirements should not be a reason for a light weapon to be substantially better than others in its class. Also as others have argued above, saying stuff about how the damage profile makes it justified, is also a poor argument. |
Chesyre Armundsen
Thanes Of Dust
467
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Posted - 2014.03.21 04:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
+1 for all the great feedback!
My only addition is that the TAR is nearly useless at this stage. I run fairly Gallente-centric fits, but my support fire fit has had it's TAR replaced because I can provide better cover at comparable range with the AR.
I'm currently playing around with the other riffles as surrogates for a med range support weapon. (makes me cry a little)
Mihi gravato Deus - "Let God lay the burden on me!"
The Space Hippie
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
788
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Posted - 2014.03.21 09:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
CCP simply hates gallente weapons.... |
zibathy numbertwo
Nox Aeterna Security
525
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Posted - 2014.03.21 14:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
The AR weapon family has the least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the highest DPS within their types.
The CR weapon has the 2nd least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd highest DPS within their types.
The SCR weapon has the 2nd most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd lowest DPS within their types. Overheat should be factored in as well.
The RR weapon has the most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the lowest DPS within their types. Spool up time should also be factored.
This issue warrants an overhaul.
Every ****** on the forum who thinks everything that's OP but benefits them is balanced's reaction to this:
*banshee wail*
NO THE CR IS BALANCED THE RR IS BALANCED NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY NEED THE MOST DPS!!!! I NEED MY FREE KILLS!!!!!!! MY PADDED K/D NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP IT! NERF THE ASSAULT RIFLE MORE!!!! REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME!!!!! EVERYTHING'S BALANCED CURRENTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3019573/indiana-jones-face-melt-o.gif
AR
Dmg: 34,
RoF: 750 RPM,
DPS: 425,
RR
Dmg: 55,
RoF: 461 RPM,
DPS: 422,
+ double the range.
Balanced.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10181
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
I expect things won't be fixed for a long time.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10314
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Posted - 2014.04.05 23:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
This needs to be fixed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
2404
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Posted - 2014.04.06 00:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:This needs to be fixed
Ccp isn't going good to do anything until after fanfest I expect this issue to be buried for about a year.
For the Federation!
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
344
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Posted - 2014.04.06 01:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged?
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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Asha Starwind
DUST University
Ivy League
733
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Posted - 2014.04.06 02:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down.
Mad Bomber - 50% less profile
Return dumbfire to Swarms
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10317
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Posted - 2014.04.06 02:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down.
Instead of nerfing stuff, AR and variants could be buffed.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
344
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Posted - 2014.04.06 03:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down.
Massive recoil? Wait, what?
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10317
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Posted - 2014.04.06 03:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged?
No idea, though I'm not sure DPS should be the main factor in balancing the different types. Its also hard to say because the tactical and burst DPS are based on the user's speed at tapping R1.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
344
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:00:00 -
[45] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Summ Dude wrote:So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged? No idea, though I'm not sure DPS should be the main factor in balancing the different types. Its also hard to say because the tactical and burst DPS are based on the user's speed at tapping R1.
It certainly shouldn't be the only factor, but I think it should be kept in mind. Of course things such as kick, dispersion, and zoom magnification will matter as well. And let's just call it "achievable DPS" then; how much damage per second you could possibly be doing with the weapon.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
2405
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:47:00 -
[46] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged?
They would be balanced at this point aside from accuracy and all that other good stuff.
For the Federation!
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bogeyman m
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
155
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kitt 514 wrote:I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS.
The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder.
The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues.
The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC)
The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo.
The heat build-up is not significant on the auto ScR.
The RRs' charge-up time is not significant - they were never designed to be CQC in the first place. (If you want better CQC, use an SMG.) Also, their range is too long - shortening range by 10m would really balance those rifles.
That the auto CR goes through ammo so fast and also has a very small capacity is a disadvantage. I think a breach version might be OP though, without other considerations. The standard (burst) CR needs a hard pause between bursts to prevent abuse from modded controllers - which would be perfectly fine in PVE, but not in PVP.
Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.
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bogeyman m
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
155
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons.
^this^
Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology.
Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10318
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:11:00 -
[49] - Quote
bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology.
Like I said to him
Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Summ Dude
Direct Action Resources
347
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Posted - 2014.04.06 19:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.
Exactly. So while the RR will have higher range than the Breach AR, the Breach should always be doing more DPS.
Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Winn Summ and lose Summ.
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Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
332
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.
They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree???
I also hate the breach / rail talk. The breach AR is for close range hard hitting CQC where the RR is basically a full auto sniper with less range. Why would anyone want to try to even those out???? I believe CCP only made that correlation for firing style ie slower full auto.
SCR really is the goal even though it probably has too much ammo. It has real drawbacks. Only change is probably giving it the same mechanic where they do less damage when too close like the laser. That can be slight.
- AR - higher damage, sharper drop off and the impact area should be larger so its even easier to aim. Make it the blaster it should be.
- CR - hard delay in between bursts or a soft delay / jamming mechanic where if you fire too fast for 3+ trigger pulls it jams the weapon and you lose some ammo and slightly open up its no scope precision
- RR - proper spool up time and very difficult to fire if you arent ADS
The goal should be different mechanics on all
just my opinion.
"Shine bright like a diamond"
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The-Errorist
632
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
Master Smurf wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree???
People might want to skill the other races tech even though they have just as good with their racial weapon tree, for the following reasons:
Aesthetics
Wanting to try something different
Caldari:
Highest damage per shot
High damage per magazine
Highest range
Damage profile of -10%/+10%
Doesn't overheat
Gallente:
Highest DPS
2nd highest RoF
Damage profile of +10%/-10%
Lower fitting requirements than Caldari
Doesn't overheat
Minmatar:
2nd highest DPS
2nd lowest range
Highest RoF
Damage profile of -5%/+10%
Lowest fitting requirements
Fastest reload speed
Doesn't overheat
Amarr:
Charge function at tactical variant
High damage per magazine
2nd highest range
2nd lowest RoF
2nd highest damage alpha damage
Damage profile of +20%/-20%
Largest magazine size
Related thread: [Request] Revising projective damage profile |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10324
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
Master Smurf wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:bogeyman m wrote:RedZer0 MK1 wrote:The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree???I also hate the breach / rail talk. The breach AR is for close range hard hitting CQC where the RR is basically a full auto sniper with less range. Why would anyone want to try to even those out???? I believe CCP only made that correlation for firing style ie slower full auto.
Why try out others? For a different set of pros and cons that fit different situations.
Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses amor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR.
While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10424
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:07:00 -
[54] - Quote
BUFF ARs!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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