DUST Search - [Feedback] Racial rifle balance by firing type & range vs DPS

Master Smurf wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

bogeyman m wrote:

RedZer0 MK1 wrote:

The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons.

^this^

Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology.

Like I said to him

Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior.

They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree???

I also hate the breach / rail talk. The breach AR is for close range hard hitting CQC where the RR is basically a full auto sniper with less range. Why would anyone want to try to even those out???? I believe CCP only made that correlation for firing style ie slower full auto.

Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10011	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:05:00 - [31] - Quote 1.8 is coming, it is the DOOOOOOM of the AR! Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2760	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:30:00 - [32] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: 1.8 is coming, it is the DOOOOOOM of the AR! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM. Ahem, carry on. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
The-Errorist 570	Posted - 2014.03.21 02:13:00 - [33] - Quote lAssassinl Zer0 wrote: Your conclusion are not fully right I means Ascr takes 12 PG. Assault rifle (advanced) takes how much ? Way less. Damage profile is really in favor to Armor in the actualy Meta. (RR and CR and Explosive) . But i agree Ascr could be a little lowered in range. (Maybe agianst less PG requirement.) Having a higher fitting requirements should not be a reason for a light weapon to be substantially better than others in its class. Also as others have argued above, saying stuff about how the damage profile makes it justified, is also a poor argument.
Chesyre Armundsen Thanes Of Dust 467	Posted - 2014.03.21 04:02:00 - [34] - Quote +1 for all the great feedback! My only addition is that the TAR is nearly useless at this stage. I run fairly Gallente-centric fits, but my support fire fit has had it's TAR replaced because I can provide better cover at comparable range with the AR. I'm currently playing around with the other riffles as surrogates for a med range support weapon. (makes me cry a little) Mihi gravato Deus - "Let God lay the burden on me!" The Space Hippie
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 788	Posted - 2014.03.21 09:13:00 - [35] - Quote CCP simply hates gallente weapons....
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 525	Posted - 2014.03.21 14:11:00 - [36] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The AR weapon family has the least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the highest DPS within their types. The CR weapon has the 2nd least ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd highest DPS within their types. The SCR weapon has the 2nd most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the 2nd lowest DPS within their types. Overheat should be factored in as well. The RR weapon has the most ranges within whatever type they are in, they should have the lowest DPS within their types. Spool up time should also be factored. This issue warrants an overhaul. Every ****** on the forum who thinks everything that's OP but benefits them is balanced's reaction to this: banshee wail NO THE CR IS BALANCED THE RR IS BALANCED NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY NEED THE MOST DPS!!!! I NEED MY FREE KILLS!!!!!!! MY PADDED K/D NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP IT! NERF THE ASSAULT RIFLE MORE!!!! REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME!!!!! EVERYTHING'S BALANCED CURRENTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3019573/indiana-jones-face-melt-o.gif AR Dmg: 34, RoF: 750 RPM, DPS: 425, RR Dmg: 55, RoF: 461 RPM, DPS: 422, + double the range. Balanced.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10181	Posted - 2014.03.29 22:46:00 - [37] - Quote I expect things won't be fixed for a long time. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10314	Posted - 2014.04.05 23:20:00 - [38] - Quote This needs to be fixed Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2404	Posted - 2014.04.06 00:19:00 - [39] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: This needs to be fixed Ccp isn't going good to do anything until after fanfest I expect this issue to be buried for about a year. For the Federation!
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 344	Posted - 2014.04.06 01:14:00 - [40] - Quote So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.

Asha Starwind DUST University Ivy League 733	Posted - 2014.04.06 02:29:00 - [41] - Quote Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down. Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10317	Posted - 2014.04.06 02:53:00 - [42] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down. Instead of nerfing stuff, AR and variants could be buffed. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 344	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:14:00 - [43] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Concerning the RRs, remove the spool up and the massive recoil, and I'm fine with the damage being bumped down. Massive recoil? Wait, what? Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10317	Posted - 2014.04.06 03:22:00 - [44] - Quote Summ Dude wrote: So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged? No idea, though I'm not sure DPS should be the main factor in balancing the different types. Its also hard to say because the tactical and burst DPS are based on the user's speed at tapping R1. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 344	Posted - 2014.04.06 06:00:00 - [45] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Summ Dude wrote: So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged? No idea, though I'm not sure DPS should be the main factor in balancing the different types. Its also hard to say because the tactical and burst DPS are based on the user's speed at tapping R1. It certainly shouldn't be the only factor, but I think it should be kept in mind. Of course things such as kick, dispersion, and zoom magnification will matter as well. And let's just call it "achievable DPS" then; how much damage per second you could possibly be doing with the weapon. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2405	Posted - 2014.04.06 06:47:00 - [46] - Quote Summ Dude wrote: So, here's a question. Assuming all variants of an assault rifle had the same range, in which order should their DPS be arranged? They would be balanced at this point aside from accuracy and all that other good stuff. For the Federation!
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 155	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:28:00 - [47] - Quote Kitt 514 wrote: I think you are forgetting weapon drawbacks apart from range and DPS. The AR really has none, its a pretty good all-rounder. The SCR suffers from heat and locking issues. The RR suffers from the charge up time (which really hinders it in CQC) The CR doesn't really have a huge drawback either, but it does blow through ammo. The heat build-up is not significant on the auto ScR. The RRs' charge-up time is not significant - they were never designed to be CQC in the first place. (If you want better CQC, use an SMG.) Also, their range is too long - shortening range by 10m would really balance those rifles. That the auto CR goes through ammo so fast and also has a very small capacity is a disadvantage. I think a breach version might be OP though, without other considerations. The standard (burst) CR needs a hard pause between bursts to prevent abuse from modded controllers - which would be perfectly fine in PVE, but not in PVP. Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 155	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:32:00 - [48] - Quote RedZer0 MK1 wrote: The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Duct tape 2.0 > Have WD-40; will travel.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10318	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:11:00 - [49] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 347	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:23:00 - [50] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: bogeyman m wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. Exactly. So while the RR will have higher range than the Breach AR, the Breach should always be doing more DPS. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.

Master Smurf Nos Nothi 332	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:10:00 - [51] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: bogeyman m wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree??? I also hate the breach / rail talk. The breach AR is for close range hard hitting CQC where the RR is basically a full auto sniper with less range. Why would anyone want to try to even those out???? I believe CCP only made that correlation for firing style ie slower full auto. SCR really is the goal even though it probably has too much ammo. It has real drawbacks. Only change is probably giving it the same mechanic where they do less damage when too close like the laser. That can be slight. AR - higher damage, sharper drop off and the impact area should be larger so its even easier to aim. Make it the blaster it should be. CR - hard delay in between bursts or a soft delay / jamming mechanic where if you fire too fast for 3+ trigger pulls it jams the weapon and you lose some ammo and slightly open up its no scope precision RR - proper spool up time and very difficult to fire if you arent ADS The goal should be different mechanics on all just my opinion. "Shine bright like a diamond"
The-Errorist 632	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:32:00 - [52] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: bogeyman m wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree??? People might want to skill the other races tech even though they have just as good with their racial weapon tree, for the following reasons: Aesthetics Wanting to try something different Caldari: Highest damage per shot High damage per magazine Highest range Damage profile of -10%/+10% Doesn't overheat Gallente: Highest DPS 2nd highest RoF Damage profile of +10%/-10% Lower fitting requirements than Caldari Doesn't overheat Minmatar: 2nd highest DPS 2nd lowest range Highest RoF Damage profile of -5%/+10% Lowest fitting requirements Fastest reload speed Doesn't overheat Amarr: Charge function at tactical variant High damage per magazine 2nd highest range 2nd lowest RoF 2nd highest damage alpha damage Damage profile of +20%/-20% Largest magazine size Related thread: [Request] Revising projective damage profile
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10324	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:50:00 - [53] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: bogeyman m wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: The variants should be slightly worse than the tech they are mimicking. Burst AR should be at a ~5% deficit from the CR, with amarr and caldari at ~10%. Since they would most likely have a bit of a longer range for their variants. Apply the rationale to all the rest of the variants and base weapons. ^this^ Although I'm not entirely convinced that every race needs to have a copy of every other race's technology. Like I said to him Having weapons being just plain worse is terrible design since it means some weapons won't be worth using (and thus pointless); all weapons of the same tier should be equally good, even the mimic variants. Mimic variants already cost more, and require more SP. It would be better to have each of them bring their own unique racial flavors on a firing type rather than just be inferior. They should be slightly inferior though or why ever skill the other races tech if you have just as good along your racial weapon tree??? I also hate the breach / rail talk. The breach AR is for close range hard hitting CQC where the RR is basically a full auto sniper with less range. Why would anyone want to try to even those out???? I believe CCP only made that correlation for firing style ie slower full auto. Why try out others? For a different set of pros and cons that fit different situations. Say for example I use a breach AR that is overall just as good as a rail rifle (like it has more DPS to make up for having less range). I might be fighting a corp that uses amor-based dropsuits along with short range weapons; instead of using my breach AR which has bonus damage to shields, a rail rifle would be more practical for the bonus damage to armor, and for being able to hit the enemies outside of their range at the cost of less DPS than the breach AR. While overall the weapons are just as viable, they each thrive in different situations, and fit different playstyles. One is a long range low DPS breach that does bonus damage to armor, while the other is a close range high DPS breach that does bonus damage to shields. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10424	Posted - 2014.04.13 18:07:00 - [54] - Quote BUFF ARs! Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+


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