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1.8: A clear step forward in balance and play style diversity.

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Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 486	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:17:00 - [1] - Quote *This is all given the information available. http://dust514.com/news/blog/2014/03/expanding-the-arsenal-with-uprising-1.8/ While not every problem is being addressed (Plasma cannon being best example), 1.8 addresses many of the problems that have popped up as a result of poor balance decisions in the past. Reduction in the power of the two clearly dominant rifles will go a long way towards other weapons being more viable. Changes to weapon proficiency skills will dramatically change the counterbalance system of weapon VS damage tank type. Overall, 1.8 will feature much more diversity and asymmetrical play that all other patches before it. With the addition of auto aim, strafe nerf, and hit box detection improvement, Time to kill was reduced dramatically for hit-scan(Rifles/HMG/SMG/etc.) weapons. While some players welcomed the faster engagements, it made the game focus less on overall strategy and move the focus to the operational/tactical level. New additions (Combat/Rail rifles) achieved hegemony rapidly upon implementation. The overall effect of all these changes made dust lose what was unique about it in the first place; the strategic element. The overall strategic choices available on and off the battlefield were what made this game worth playing. In this context it was obvious that TTK needed to be increased. CCP goes about that in a number of ways. They reduce the damage of rifles focusing primarily on the ones that are seen as the most overpowered(CR/RR also see near universal use in high level play). The combat rifle had replaced the AR as the primary choice for short/medium range encounters due to its ability to better engage targets at medium/long range AND its reduced fitting costs. The rail rifle became the new long range specialist and was still effective at close range(Completely dominating the Laser Rifle). This limited the variation even within the rifle class, which itself dominated all other weapon systems. The overall nerfs to rifle damage and specific extra focus given to the strongest of the class will allow for more viable play options. The biggest winners being MD + Laser rifle. The second way they went about increasing TTK was reducing the damage bonus of damage mods. This change is more interesting. It affects armor tankers more than shield tankers and may unintentionally nerf AV. The fact that armor tankers use their low slots for tanking, leaves their high slots more available for damage mods. They tend to use more damage mods than shield tankers as a result. It also makes the Shield Extender/Damage Mod trade-off move more in the direction of the shield extender. Overall you should see people move more towards shield/dual tanking and using less damage mods. Given the dominance of armor tanking at the moment, this change should increase variety. An (hopefully) unintended result of this is that already weak AV will be further weakened. AV fits almost universally stack as many damage mods as possible and even then, the forge gun is the only AV weapon that retains any effectiveness currently. Swarm launchers and the plasma cannon are woefully underpowered and the lack of buff to them is the largest oversight of the patch(I'd love to think that they just forgot to include the buff in the dev blog, but...) The change that will help restore the strategic nature of the game the most though is the weapon proficiency change. By changing the damage bonus to make it only effect the tank-type that it is strong against, it will give players the ability to punish opponents for lack of variety. Different weapon systems will be more powerful depending on the choices that your opponents make. Simply spamming armor tanked characters will no longer be an option, as a team with combat rifles and mass drivers will dominate them. It makes off battlefield choices more valuable and increases variation. Simply put it is the best change of the patch. 1.8 isn't perfect but it is probably the best balance patch they have ever put out info on. I am impressed with what they have done for infantry balance, but have concerns that AV was unadressed, that the MD may turn out to be OP, and that the HMG may need an additional tweak(Likely slight nerf 5%). But they also surprised me with a pre-emptive change. The grenade nerf (3 max ammo->2) will be necessary when TTK once again returns to normal value. The relative strength of grenades was diminished when you could kill someone in under the time it took to detonate anyway. It shows that CCP is at the very least improving in terms of ability to balance the game and variation should increase accordingly.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2580	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:22:00 - [2] - Quote Diversity? What diversity? You can quote me on this but all these changes are going to give rise to one thing, everyone dual tanked causing engagements to last far longer than they should slowing down the flow of the game I'll start my own war, with hookers, and blackjack! In fact forget the war and the blackjack.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10466	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:23:00 - [3] - Quote It's not all completely awful but there are some serious problems. For example, the magsec SMG does more damage at range than some rifles. The assault combat rifle is even better relatively then the plasma rifle than it was. The ion pistol is terrible. The damage mod nerf means that everyone will dual tank and it further functions as a nerf to AV, which is absolutely unnecessary. You note that it pushes the damage mod vs extender balance further in the direction of the extender - it was already technically favouring the extender. Now, it massively favours the extender to the point where if you are picking a damage mod over an extender you are probably doing something wrong or using a very specific fit. The proficiency changes will make dual tanking pretty much the only way to go. It doesn't increase variety - coupled with the damage mod changes, everyone is just going to brick tank. Having weapon affinities sounds cool on paper, but it doesn't work when you can always have the strong defence against all weapons. The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. In short: There will be no variety. It will just be brick tanked suits with shield extenders and armour plates and a handful of the best weapons. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 486	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:27:00 - [4] - Quote I think people underestimate how strong damage mods are right now. They will still see some use. 5-11% is still significant.
Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 1922	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:30:00 - [5] - Quote Total agreement, Arkena, except for one thing: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. It will create a longer TTK because everyone will now be using high-HP Sentinel suits. The Assault HMG will now do a full 44% more DPS than the Gallente Assault Rifle, and will likely outclass it at all possible engagement ranges. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10467	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:30:00 - [6] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: I think people underestimate how strong damage mods are right now. They will still see some use. 5-11% is still significant. It just wont be the obvious choice anymore. 5-11%? It's 3-5%. Disturbingly Bored wrote: Total agreement, Arkena, except for one thing: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. It will create a longer TTK because everyone will now be using high-HP Sentinel suits. The Assault HMG will now do a full 44% more DPS than the Gallente Assault Rifle, and will likely outclass it at all possible engagement ranges. I suppose the part about sentinel spam is true, but that's going to be irritating for any non-HMG user. The assault HMG part is just depressing, honestly. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Piercing Serenity Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 568	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:32:00 - [7] - Quote Here are my thoughts on the new TTK/Brick tanking situation - One flux will wipe out all shields, regardless of tier or who throws the grenade - M1 (possibly) and Core (surely) locus grenades will still eat through all shields, save for heavy and commando - Laser Rifles and ScR's will eat through shields etc. additionally, consider the different ways that people can counter brick tanked suits - "ScR / SMG / Locus" for Shield tanked suits - "CR / ScP / Flux" for Shields - "Laser / MD / Any" for either situation (Commando) etc. My guess is that there is going to be a shift from people using the same light weapon / sidearm for every engagement, and put more emphasis on bringing multiple different weapons to a fight. That is to say, I think players will do less of "Start every fight with my CR, switch to sidearm if necessary". Instead, they will be rewarded more for thinking "I'll open up with my ScP, then hit his armor with CR". If players can do the above, especially taking the new proficiency stats into account, TTK increases won't be a worry for those who try to plan ahead for their engagements DUST 514 BETA VET 16.2M Lifetime SP SH4T --> PFBHz --> PFB --> SH4T --> Fatal
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 487	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:34:00 - [8] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: I think people underestimate how strong damage mods are right now. They will still see some use. 5-11% is still significant. It just wont be the obvious choice anymore. 5-11%? It's 3-5%. Disturbingly Bored wrote: Total agreement, Arkena, except for one thing: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. It will create a longer TTK because everyone will now be using high-HP Sentinel suits. The Assault HMG will now do a full 44% more DPS than the Gallente Assault Rifle, and will likely outclass it at all possible engagement ranges. I suppose the part about sentinel spam is true, but that's going to be irritating for any non-HMG user. The assault HMG part is just depressing, honestly. And armor tankers still might use 2 of them. At a certain point, % damage output will outweigh a % health increase. DMG output/EHP is the true deciding factor in an equal skill matchup. The fact that HMG didn't receive a slight nerf seems to be an oversight. The damage mod nerf should go some distance towards alleviating that, as HMG users almost exclusively stack them at this point.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 725	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:36:00 - [9] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Diversity? What diversity? You can quote me on this but all these changes are going to give rise to one thing, everyone dual tanked causing engagements to last far longer than they should slowing down the flow of the game Sounds good, since engagements are lasting about a half of a second now. Maybe Dual tankers will actually make it pass 2 seconds with these changes.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4499	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:37:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's not all completely awful but there are some serious problems. For example, the magsec SMG does more damage at range than some rifles. The assault combat rifle is even better relatively then the plasma rifle than it was. The ion pistol is terrible. The damage mod nerf means that everyone will dual tank and it further functions as a nerf to AV, which is absolutely unnecessary. You note that it pushes the damage mod vs extender balance further in the direction of the extender - it was already technically favouring the extender. Now, it massively favours the extender to the point where if you are picking a damage mod over an extender you are probably doing something wrong or using a very specific fit. The proficiency changes will make dual tanking pretty much the only way to go. It doesn't increase variety - coupled with the damage mod changes, everyone is just going to brick tank. Having weapon affinities sounds cool on paper, but it doesn't work when you can always have the strong defence against all weapons. The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. In short: There will be no variety. It will just be brick tanked suits with shield extenders and armour plates and a handful of the best weapons. This summoned up exactly how I feel about 1.8. Also, they will equally nerf the Breach AR, which DOESN'T deserve a nerf, as well as the Burst AR. Also, glass tanking the Minmatar Assault will no longer be possible. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10467	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:37:00 - [11] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: And armor tankers still might use 2 of them. At a certain point, % damage output will outweigh a % health increase. DMG output/EHP is the true deciding factor in an equal skill matchup. The fact that HMG didn't receive a slight nerf seems to be an oversight. The damage mod nerf should go some distance towards alleviating that, as HMG users almost exclusively stack them at this point. No. Armour tankers will almost certainly stack shield extenders. It's a case of 140 HP vs 10% damage (and it isn't 11%, because of stacking penalties, even if they do work multiplicatively). Which would you honestly pick? In any scenario except against a scrambler rifle the 140 HP is better. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 803	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:38:00 - [12] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Total agreement, Arkena, except for one thing: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. It will create a longer TTK because everyone will now be using high-HP Sentinel suits. The Assault HMG will now do a full 44% more DPS than the Gallente Assault Rifle, and will likely outclass it at all possible engagement ranges. This is exactly how I feel. I fear that in 1.8 the only viable slayers on the ground will be sentinels (maybe some commandos). And before heavies respond with "but range!" I counter that with your use of LAVs and the maps we have where range means nothing. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Cyrius Li-Moody 3945	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:40:00 - [13] - Quote This is going to be an awkward transition patch that's for sure. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4500	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:42:00 - [14] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Here are my thoughts on the new TTK/Brick tanking situation - One flux will wipe out all shields, regardless of tier or who throws the grenade - M1 (possibly) and Core (surely) locus grenades will still eat through all shields, save for heavy and commando - Laser Rifles and ScR's will eat through shields etc. additionally, consider the different ways that people can counter brick tanked suits - "ScR / SMG / Locus" for Shield tanked suits - "CR / ScP / Flux" for Shields - "Laser / MD / Any" for either situation (Commando) etc. My guess is that there is going to be a shift from people using the same light weapon / sidearm for every engagement, and put more emphasis on bringing multiple different weapons to a fight. That is to say, I think players will do less of "Start every fight with my CR, switch to sidearm if necessary". Instead, they will be rewarded more for thinking "I'll open up with my ScP, then hit his armor with CR". If players can do the above, especially taking the new proficiency stats into account, TTK increases won't be a worry for those who try to plan ahead for their engagements Since Damage Mods were keeping both the MD and Plasma Cannon above the water, they'll stay nearly the same. The Laser Rifle is far to situational to be mainstream. Also, if Cal Logi's didn't make people use the Scrambler Pistol and Flux grenades more, 1.8 definitely won't do it. Sorry, but your optimism is just to far fetched to even be believable. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2154	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:42:00 - [15] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Diversity? What diversity? You can quote me on this but all these changes are going to give rise to one thing, everyone dual tanked causing engagements to last far longer than they should slowing down the flow of the game With a bit of luck that will be covered by changes to the dropsuits, caldari not having enough PG for armour, gallantes not having enough CPU for shields. However I don't see what the problem with dual tanking is anyway, amarr and minmatar dropsuits are both known for being dual tankers. Its not a valid tank type. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 489	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:44:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: And armor tankers still might use 2 of them. At a certain point, % damage output will outweigh a % health increase. DMG output/EHP is the true deciding factor in an equal skill matchup. The fact that HMG didn't receive a slight nerf seems to be an oversight. The damage mod nerf should go some distance towards alleviating that, as HMG users almost exclusively stack them at this point. No. Armour tankers will almost certainly stack shield extenders. It's a case of 140 HP vs 10% damage (and it isn't 11%, because of stacking penalties, even if they do work multiplicatively). Which would you honestly pick? In any scenario except against a scrambler rifle the 140 HP is better. yeah :/. my bad on the math.. more like 9.5%
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 490	Posted - 2014.03.05 23:58:00 - [17] - Quote The AV/infantry balance is the real loser of this patch. Countering tanks will fall to having your own rail tanks even more than it is now. Creates two separate games; infantry vs infantry and tank vs tank. Not ideal
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2582	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:06:00 - [18] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Diversity? What diversity? You can quote me on this but all these changes are going to give rise to one thing, everyone dual tanked causing engagements to last far longer than they should slowing down the flow of the game With a bit of luck that will be covered by changes to the dropsuits, caldari not having enough PG for armour, gallantes not having enough CPU for shields. However I don't see what the problem with dual tanking is anyway, amarr and minmatar dropsuits are both known for being dual tankers. Its not a valid tank type. Dual tanking in and of itself isnt a problem The problem shows up when I can stack large amounts of health against nerfed weapons allowing me to dance around as I please in very little danger and making engaging the enemy a tiresome battle of attrition rather than an intense firefight with a sense of danger and excitement Its a style of game play that works for EVE but not for the FPS genre I'll start my own war, with hookers, and blackjack! In fact forget the war and the blackjack.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 804	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:07:00 - [19] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: The AV/infantry balance is the real loser of this patch. Countering tanks will fall to having your own rail tanks even more than it is now. Creates two separate games; infantry vs infantry and tank vs tank. Not ideal Except that their will still be tank vs infantry and it will be even more 1 sided unless tanks are getting some sort of nerf. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 804	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:11:00 - [20] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Here are my thoughts on the new TTK/Brick tanking situation - One flux will wipe out all shields, regardless of tier or who throws the grenade - M1 (possibly) and Core (surely) locus grenades will still eat through all shields, save for heavy and commando - Laser Rifles and ScR's will eat through shields etc. additionally, consider the different ways that people can counter brick tanked suits - "ScR / SMG / Locus" for Shield tanked suits - "CR / ScP / Flux" for Shields - "Laser / MD / Any" for either situation (Commando) etc. My guess is that there is going to be a shift from people using the same light weapon / sidearm for every engagement, and put more emphasis on bringing multiple different weapons to a fight. That is to say, I think players will do less of "Start every fight with my CR, switch to sidearm if necessary". Instead, they will be rewarded more for thinking "I'll open up with my ScP, then hit his armor with CR". If players can do the above, especially taking the new proficiency stats into account, TTK increases won't be a worry for those who try to plan ahead for their engagements I like your optimism, however, at the same time CCP is pushing us more towards racial weapon going with racial suit with their bonuses. In some ways maybe this is what gives assaults a bonus is that with their nonracial bonus beings 5% reduction to sidearm and light weapon CPU/PG they can split damage types towards 2 different racial weapons more than say commando and maybe people will want to slayer logi less if they want to be able to have that second sort of damage type. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7177	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:12:00 - [21] - Quote I'm more impressed about the nova knives retaining their across-the-board proficiency damage bonus. All other weapons will be either anti-armor or anti-shield while the nova knives will still be anti-both. To me this is a good thing considering the effort it takes to get close enough to anyone for a proper kill. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 490	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:19:00 - [22] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: The AV/infantry balance is the real loser of this patch. Countering tanks will fall to having your own rail tanks even more than it is now. Creates two separate games; infantry vs infantry and tank vs tank. Not ideal Except that their will still be tank vs infantry and it will be even more 1 sided unless tanks are getting some sort of nerf. Agree. None of this is preferable.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1913	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:49:00 - [23] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Diversity? What diversity? You can quote me on this but all these changes are going to give rise to one thing, everyone dual tanked causing engagements to last far longer than they should slowing down the flow of the game They already Dual-Tank. The only thing is that Protostomping will get worse as militia/standard weapons won't be able to fend off the higher HP Protogear. Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1913	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:53:00 - [24] - Quote Fiddlestaxp wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: Fiddlestaxp wrote: The AV/infantry balance is the real loser of this patch. Countering tanks will fall to having your own rail tanks even more than it is now. Creates two separate games; infantry vs infantry and tank vs tank. Not ideal Except that their will still be tank vs infantry and it will be even more 1 sided unless tanks are getting some sort of nerf. Agree. None of this is preferable. I hope they buff AV back to pre 1.7 sevels. The buffs to Vehicles are too big to not have that potent a counter available. Plus, Tanks are a dime a dozen now, Vehicle users will be fine financially if their tanks die once or twice a match (If they aren't dumb and pull Full comp mods and Proto turrets, and a standard tank. Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 159	Posted - 2014.03.06 00:58:00 - [25] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Diversity? What diversity? You can quote me on this but all these changes are going to give rise to one thing, everyone dual tanked causing engagements to last far longer than they should slowing down the flow of the game /\ Damage mod stacked proto rail rifle user? I like being able to turn around once in a while. The only reason I skilled into rail rifles was to see what the assault rail rifle looks like. Hopefully FOTM goes somewhere else so I can use it without that scruby feeling... just stay away from the laser rifle... if that becomes FOTM, I'm going to leave dust For like 5 minutes before I return with a shotgun cloaked scout Sees prototompers... Sees blueberries start to snipe... Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...
Kaughst Nyain San Renegade Alliance 228	Posted - 2014.03.06 01:23:00 - [26] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's not all completely awful but there are some serious problems. For example, the magsec SMG does more damage at range than some rifles. The assault combat rifle is even better relatively then the plasma rifle than it was. The ion pistol is terrible. The damage mod nerf means that everyone will dual tank and it further functions as a nerf to AV, which is absolutely unnecessary. You note that it pushes the damage mod vs extender balance further in the direction of the extender - it was already technically favouring the extender. Now, it massively favours the extender to the point where if you are picking a damage mod over an extender you are probably doing something wrong or using a very specific fit. The proficiency changes will make dual tanking pretty much the only way to go. It doesn't increase variety - coupled with the damage mod changes, everyone is just going to brick tank. Having weapon affinities sounds cool on paper, but it doesn't work when you can always have the strong defence against all weapons. The lack of an HMG nerf to ensure it doesn't immediately become a huge outlier in terms of DPS means that the HMG heavy will fail to create a 'longer TTK'. In short: There will be no variety. It will just be brick tanked suits with shield extenders and armour plates and a handful of the best weapons. A example of where suits can take advantage of their intended HP is when CCP proposed that gallente have a lesser speed penalty with armor plates. This is lacking right now due to a lack of coding tools. But if we were to increase the movement penalty for armor plates and only let the gallente benefit from it it would reduce caldari suits from putting anything but ferroscale on their low slots. Conversely making it so that the shield extender penalty is applied less to the caldari suit or another shield reduction for anyone but caldari or minmatar. In regard to min and amarr, I am sure it can be worked around to have their own benefits like the Amarr having a higher base armor/shields and doing something with the Minmatar shield recharge. The dam. reduction does not make dam. mods obsolete if only for the time being but it is a step in the right direction and gets the TTK problem it out of the way that has been going on for the last few months, I am sure EHP will be address just a damage has been...I mean...The medium frame slot layout and pg/cpu is being pushed back to another update so it is safe to say CCP can get around to it. "That is not how you say my name." "How do you say your name?" "I don't know but that is not how you say it."


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