Tanks are Op and undervalued. When a tank can outrun an Lav, that's Op. Slow the freaking things down and that would fix a lot of problems, raise the value and that would fix many more problems. Yeah it's fair to spec into tanks and be a tanker and get a group and run a tank squad, although a craptacular tactic, it's legit.

However, when a op tank costs less than a leveled logi setup, it's pretty clear that it's not balanced.

Or 600m, the rails range

Cant really agree here because your creating to much of a pitched battle scenario, tanks to have the freedom to play as they see fit.... Even if it means sitting on top of the spire at Alpha on Line Harvest Skirm raining rail shells down on my head at tabletop..... If we nerf the gun, or change the map I could accept that though I hate nerfs, but I hate things being implemented to tell the tanker he cant ohk with his rail gun while doing a solo 'yolo', " <---- nerf this word", 360 noscope spin with his turret off that damn spire even more, its like telling heavies they cant use rifles, or you cant forge people only vehicles, or scouts should only shotgun and scan and hack, or massdrivers are for noobs, logis aint supposed to kill, etc etc etc.... Same road cant go down it.

So what are a of you going to do when a HAV gets five logi to constantly rep them? That is about 500 HP per second, is that op? People don't try to destroy them and the few that do usually do it. The people trying to say the HAV is over powered want to solo a HAV but it doesn't and shouldn't be. They are fine, try harder.

No this time its not a troll, this is my response to "Judge Rhadamanthus" and his call for nerfs on the rail tank which I believe he has unfairly focused on, when the real issues are the Red Line and Map Design , here I suggest another alternative that would solve the red line and map design issues he is facing .... and we can leave that nerf hammer alone, I really HATE NERFS and I believe nerfing breaks the mechanics of the game further .

My Rebuttal

DUST 514 : Tanks are NOT OP

This is pure opinion, just a "nu-uh!". It doesn't present new facts, it doesn't analyze and dismantle previous arguments, and it doesn't present any new reasoning of its own. It's opinion with no backup.

This is supposed to be a refutation of Judge's presentation?

It would be nice to see the redline go; so I can freely fly off into the distance in my derpship and go explore those massive Loldari and Faillente cities we often see in the far distance!

I have not read your rebuttal yet I will, and I also hate nerfs, but the judges video is solid, and maps shouldnt need changing to make a vehicle less powerful, Im not saying you couldnt fix the problem by changing map contour near the redline as I have advocated for this for other reasons, but rails are broken beyond the redline I think..... Most dropship pilots would agree I think, we dont need a hard nerf though because they do keep dropships in check which I like but they need some help against 1 shot or 2 shots from rails and that exists in and out of the redline....

The most powerful railgun in the world is a 33 MJ device that spits out projectiles at 20 km/s. The 80 GJ railgun is thusly 2400 times more powerful than that, and I still have to lead shots to hit a ******* dropship only 300 metres away.

No, I will not stop reminding people of the fact that it hits like nineteen tonnes of TNT. No, I don't think it should be anything other than a hitscan gun that does tremendous damage. Find another way to balance it.

The rail turret is OP. It has an ungodly RoF now that has caused every non-tanker and his mother to call one out as an easy counter to any tank that comes on the field. My skill investment in tanks doesn't matter, my missiles have no real use. Just pull out a mil rail and fit. Sick of it.

Its called balance, scrub

Indeed, and the non-idiotic way to achieve that is by making it a hitscan weapon that does tremendous damage and has some other drawback, like a low rate of fire, or a long spool-up.

EDIT: Or stop pretending it's a railgun.

The most powerful railgun in the world is a 33 MJ device that spits out projectiles at 20 km/s. The 80 GJ railgun is thusly 2400 times more powerful than that, and I still have to lead shots to hit a ******* dropship only 300 metres away.

No, I will not stop reminding people of the fact that it hits like nineteen tonnes of TNT. No, I don't think it should be anything other than a hitscan gun that does tremendous damage. Find another way to balance it.

You think a modern-day rail comparison looks bad? None of the weapons are sensible in a real-life context.

M-16 (made in 1962): effective range > 500m
Gallente AR: 250m (absolute, it will do 0 damage past that)

Uzi (made in 1954): effective range - 200m
SMG: 125m (absolute)

M40 (1966 U.S. sniper rifle): effective range > 1200m
Sniper Rifle: 600m (absolute)

So, all the super sci-fi weapons have max possible ranges frequently that are less than HALF of the "effective" range of equivalents made five decades ago.

All the in-game ranges are totally made up and tweaked for game reasons, there is no realism attached to it.

i see more std tanks in the redzone than anything else. even glass cannon sicas are braver than std tanks.

ive found it to be a large waste of ammo to try and shoot down a moving dropship. and since it can stay on the tank and fire upon it for an eternity till the tank dies. the only chance the tank has at survival is to drive under low open buildings or run to a position that can give the tank a chance to fire back.

i would like to remove the hardener cycling by idea is to make activating one hardener of the same type activate all others at the same time. so in short a tank with 3 armor hardeners wont be able to cycle them as activating one armor hardener will activate the other 2. they could also be given a penalty of slowing the vehicle down when activated. yesterday during a dom in a one sided match. there was this one gunlogi. most likely 2 rail damage mods and a shield hardener no armor reps over in the redzone area. a pulled up on a high hill top with my armor rail and single damage mod. was a pretty long range range im thinking around 400-500 meters. we were both position so far apart that we just both just out of range of each other yet can still see. me having a decently high ground advantage with the gunlogi using the hill line on his side as cover.

with the single rail damage mod active it took over 4 rounds to nearly take down the shields of the tank with the single shield hardener active. it survived for the simple fact that it was at the end of the rail guns range and that hill. if i could have gotten in closer i would have but for the simple fact of the other sicas roaming about in the objective i would have trouble getting across. so if shield hardeners are brought down to 40% they could become better for the over all high alpha damage with the loss in a little tank ability least it wont take 4 rounds just to barely hit through the hardener. thats just my thoughts.

ive found it largely easier to shoot down a dropship thats not moving. but when it starts moving it becomes a large waste of ammo. due to the fact that the rail guns projectile seems to have a crappy travel time or lagg of some sort. ull more than likely have more success hitting a slow moving heavy or rail rifle user. which tend to stay still while shooting.

plus the bugs where the gun shows the firing animation and over heat increase yet the ammo count isnt registering shots being fired so im not getting hits. its been happening to me on a lot of guns and turrets.
asides from that. its the std tanks i see more than mlt. i can handle mlt tank and such no problem. id consider it free wp. although when im going up against a std tank or something higher tierd than me in general i have to take major precautions or i risk not getting the kill. im not a hardener user as i tend to go for passive stuff like armor plating and such dont like active tanking just not a fan of all the modules. so my tanks are generally weaker than most others. the shield hardener seems to give shields a major advantage of armor though. that extra 20% resistance is massive when concerning a brawl.i kinda see shield tanks as more of the hit and run type tanks.

Oh great, now I have four more things to ***** about.

Indeed, and the non-idiotic way to achieve that is by making it a hitscan weapon that does tremendous damage and has some other drawback, like a low rate of fire, or a long spool-up.

EDIT: Or stop pretending it's a railgun.

Its a difficult topic, when it comes to rails v anything, the redline is indeed the problem, but I don't think takes away from the disproportionate amount of effort required to kill a tank, with or without a redline.

Removing or fixing the redline is the first step, but we need to consider more over the ramifications of stacked or cycled hardners.
As I said in a post before .7 dropped the hardners stack to easily to give MASSIVE EHP, with very few drawbacks.

Until we look at hardners tanks will not be balanced by infantry.