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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback
2260
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Posted - 2014.02.25 09:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
"Hello there im your drill sergant here is your gun and there is the door to the battlefield". Now good luck soldier (kicks the rookie out of the door and quickly closes it). The rookie runs around for 10 secs and gets murdered instantly by vets who know every aspect of the game. Why does Dust514 doesnt has a training lvl like M.A.G. had? On mag you could do the training which told you the essential basics like throwing grenades, shoting, driving a vehicle, hacking a objective and repairing vehicles etc. Dust has nothing that explains the game mechanics which is really horrible. On the battlefinder once you made a new char there should be a "training session" highlighted which awards the newbie with maybe some equipment upon completion.
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3556
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Posted - 2014.02.25 09:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:"Hello there im your drill sergant here is your gun and there is the door to the battlefield". Now good luck soldier (kicks the rookie out of the door and quickly closes it). The rookie runs around for 10 secs and gets murdered instantly by vets who know every aspect of the game. Why does Dust514 doesnt has a training lvl like M.A.G. had? On mag you could do the training which told you the essential basics like throwing grenades, shoting, driving a vehicle, hacking a objective and repairing vehicles etc. Dust has nothing that explains the game mechanics which is really horrible. On the battlefinder once you made a new char there should be a "training session" highlighted which awards the newbie with maybe some equipment upon completion.
New players used to be in the "academy" longer. They decided 2 matches or whatever was enough at some point.
/shrug
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
964
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Posted - 2014.02.25 10:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though.
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
RNDclan.com
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Kalante Schiffer
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
488
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Posted - 2014.02.25 10:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
battle academy has to be at least 30,000 wp. |
danthrax martin
Butcher's Nails
48
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Posted - 2014.02.25 10:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
I went through it today. Running around trying to help out noobs and theres a jackass vet taking out 40 new guys in a tank. He saw nothing wrong cause his alt was new? What the hell. I went around givining ar love taps, calling down lavs for berries, even dropping them for reds and running off. Are they siphoning chump change from alts or something? I just don't get some people. I guess all i can do is find him in game and fk him up?
Adv. Commando, AR / swarm
Adv. Sentinel, AR / HMG
"I need More Ammo!!!"....."Medic!"
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
1317
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Posted - 2014.02.25 10:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:"Hello there im your drill sergant here is your gun and there is the door to the battlefield". Now good luck soldier (kicks the rookie out of the door and quickly closes it). The rookie runs around for 10 secs and gets murdered instantly by vets who know every aspect of the game. Why does Dust514 doesnt has a training lvl like M.A.G. had? On mag you could do the training which told you the essential basics like throwing grenades, shoting, driving a vehicle, hacking a objective and repairing vehicles etc. Dust has nothing that explains the game mechanics which is really horrible. On the battlefinder once you made a new char there should be a "training session" highlighted which awards the newbie with maybe some equipment upon completion.
All you need is a few spreadsheets and the ability to read. Welcome to New Eden.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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steadyhand amarr
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
2366
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Posted - 2014.02.25 11:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP does not understand the core rules of shooters get used to this expect many more desgin fumbles
"i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk"
winner of EU squad cup
GOGO power rangers
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PLAYSTTION
MercenaryCenter
54
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though. I support this, especially because it means every one gets 1.5mil more sp
-Open Beta Vet-13.7 mil sp-
Laser+Flaylock
Dust 514 recruitment link here
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Bax Zanith
48
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
I created an alt a few weeks ago, to see if it was as bad for new players as everyone said. It was far worse then I imagened. There is a varry vague tutorial in place, it just tells you to press buttons. It dosnt tell you why your pushing those buttons, it just tells you to push buttons. It dose give them a one day active booster at the end of the tutorial, but it dosnt explane what the booster dos for you. There needs to be a controlled environment for new players to learn in. I can only hope CCP uses the power of PvE to build a reliable tutorial system, but knowing CCP...
I'd say walk in my shoes for a day, but you probably still won't understand.
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INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
363
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:The dark cloud wrote:"Hello there im your drill sergant here is your gun and there is the door to the battlefield". Now good luck soldier (kicks the rookie out of the door and quickly closes it). The rookie runs around for 10 secs and gets murdered instantly by vets who know every aspect of the game. Why does Dust514 doesnt has a training lvl like M.A.G. had? On mag you could do the training which told you the essential basics like throwing grenades, shoting, driving a vehicle, hacking a objective and repairing vehicles etc. Dust has nothing that explains the game mechanics which is really horrible. On the battlefinder once you made a new char there should be a "training session" highlighted which awards the newbie with maybe some equipment upon completion.
New players used to be in the "academy" longer. They decided 2 matches or whatever was enough at some point. /shrug They shortened the academy because surprise surprise people were farming it with alts for isk, so just like so much else its ****** up a good thing because of people looking to exploit something.... |
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Azura Sakura
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
605
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
danthrax martin wrote:I went through it today. Running around trying to help out noobs and theres a jackass vet taking out 40 new guys in a tank. He saw nothing wrong cause his alt was new? What the hell. I went around givining ar love taps, calling down lavs for berries, even dropping them for reds and running off. Are they siphoning chump change from alts or something? I just don't get some people. I guess all i can do is find him in game and fk him up? Usually bad players, "bored" people, griefers and ass holes make a new account and own the noobs. I guess they have no choice when they make an alt. Since there is no alternative to vets that want to make a new character and play without hurting the new players but that is probably like very few that care about new players. |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
1672
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP talks a lot of talk about the NPE, but in terms of what's been delivered there's nothing other than a half-assed minimal-time-invested 3 part objective system.
It's a prioritization thing, and is best measured by actions, of which, to the best of our knowledge, there are none.
The hope is that the NPE is being agressively worked on behind closed doors and depending heavily on input from the CPM. But at this point that's all it can be for the playerbase - hope.
Personally, i'm tempted to think that CCP is fully aware that this game is going to absolute hell for new players for a long time to come, and has made the conscious decision to not invest in the NPE, devoting development assets instead to repairing the situation they created in beta. Once again, the playerbase called this a long time ago.
I hope to god a change of philosophy has come to Shanghai/Reykjavik wrt the development of DUST.
I support SP rollover.
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Frost Kitty
Fatal Absolution
62
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though. This is a great idea. However if it were to happen, I think they should get the extra 1.5mil after graduating the academy to keep the academy a kind of militia standard thing only... well that can be easily bypassed by waiting on passive sp but it would be the same as it is now anyway.
Meow...
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
11561
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
DUST has incredibly efficient NPE
(New Player Extermination)
Videos / Fiction
Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
1330
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Make Academy a PVE training simulation. Aura takes you through the mechanics. Then you can enter a regular pub match where Aura continues to instruct you to do specific things.
She comments about how other players are different than the AI. She notes how you get your butt kicked easier. Make the suit you use a special fit that you can't change until the training is over.
It will essentially be a proto everything suit. You can't use it outside the tutorial nor fit it differently. The catch is that you can only proceed through the match according to Aura's instructions therefore, Nyain San can't spam new chars just to mess up the intent of the game as they are want to do.
That way we get noobs in pubs but they will actually be an asset for the core game objectives. That way the rest of us can relax on the redline and snipe to our heart's desire.
Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!
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Grimmiers
0uter.Heaven
425
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
all academy battle money should be non transferable too?
SoundCloud
Recruiter Link
Pronounced Grim-e-urs
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1010
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:"Hello there im your drill sergant here is your gun and there is the door to the battlefield". Now good luck soldier (kicks the rookie out of the door and quickly closes it). The rookie runs around for 10 secs and gets murdered instantly by vets who know every aspect of the game. Why does Dust514 doesnt has a training lvl like M.A.G. had? On mag you could do the training which told you the essential basics like throwing grenades, shoting, driving a vehicle, hacking a objective and repairing vehicles etc. Dust has nothing that explains the game mechanics which is really horrible. On the battlefinder once you made a new char there should be a "training session" highlighted which awards the newbie with maybe some equipment upon completion.
Regarding Battle Academy, here's a reminder"
CCP Greyscale wrote:This is an ongoing experiment, so we're expecting to make further changes in the coming weeks, to try out new theories and home in on the best experience. Happily, we've got a reasonably comprehensive set of metrics tracking retention and so on, so we have a pretty good overview of the trends involved.
If you have any questions, please ask away and I'll try and answer as best I can.
Cheers, -Greyscale According to their metrics, it was ok for new players to quickly graduate and be sent to a pack of wild animals.
Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1!
LOL Battle Academy
LOL Plasma Cannon
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Knight Solitaire
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
344
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though.
Just another thing to add to the list.
No SP cap until the player reaches 10mil SP.
Corporation: Fatal Absolution
Alliance: General Tso's Alliance
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
1673
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:all academy battle money should be non transferable too? There's like 500 new accounts made every day according to eve-offline.net. It's either a lot of mag players or farmers. Most likely it's both and a better npe might be a little to late if we let these mag players go. +1. Good point.
I support SP rollover.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2605
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Azura Sakura wrote:danthrax martin wrote:I went through it today. Running around trying to help out noobs and theres a jackass vet taking out 40 new guys in a tank. He saw nothing wrong cause his alt was new? What the hell. I went around givining ar love taps, calling down lavs for berries, even dropping them for reds and running off. Are they siphoning chump change from alts or something? I just don't get some people. I guess all i can do is find him in game and fk him up? Usually bad players, "bored" people, griefers and ass holes make a new account and own the noobs. I guess they have no choice when they make an alt. Since there is no alternative to vets that want to make a new character and play without hurting the new players but that is probably like very few that care about new players. The alternative is to squad up with a Vet and have them que the squad for a non academe match.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Crimson ShieId
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
116
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Just a side point... MAG didn't originally have that tutorial. It was like Dust in that it just tossed you into the action without telling you **** about what you were supposed to be doing.
Sometimes I miss never seeing tanks in a battle... then I remember the mystical flying soma, and I can't help but smile.
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Leonid Tybalt
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
268
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Can't really relate to your sentiments. Mainly because im old enough to have experienced games that, back in the day, expected you to actually read through the instructions manuals to find out how the controls work and other necessary information.
Options lets you find the controller scheme, and "Show Info" on every skill and piece of equipment let's you see the exact attributes involved.
But "kids these days" are obviously too lazy to do such basic legwork. No, they want "training modes" and "tutorials"... |
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1352
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 14:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though.
I'd rather Let new characters Have the Weekly SP cap limits removed until 5 m Skill points. Get them hooked on that sweet persistent skill system drug early
But really no player should leave the Battle academy without having a Quest to put down a nanohive and have 2 people get ammo from it.
Put down a uplink and have 2 people spawn on it...
Use a repair tool.
Get 1 kill with a majority of the MLT weapon options..
Call in a MLT tank and get a kill with it.
Call in a MLT dropship and stay in the air for 1 minute...
Hack 10 objectives..
Hack 5 structures..
Destroy 1 structure...
These are basic quests every New mercenary in DUST should have to do before leaving the Battle Academy...
We need to TEACH people how to play DUST 514 first... You can hand all the tools you want to a player... Computer generated Tracking systems.. Better suits, Guns... More SP... But it won't improve much if they don't understand the game.
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
1673
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Posted - 2014.02.25 15:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though. I'd rather Let new characters Have the Weekly SP cap limits removed until 5 m Skill points. Get them hooked on that sweet persistent skill system drug early But really no player should leave the Battle academy without having a Quest to put down a nanohive and have 2 people get ammo from it. Put down a uplink and have 2 people spawn on it... Use a repair tool. Get 1 kill with a majority of the MLT weapon options.. Call in a MLT tank and get a kill with it. Call in a MLT dropship and stay in the air for 1 minute... Hack 10 objectives.. Hack 5 structures.. Destroy 1 structure... These are basic quests every New mercenary in DUST should have to do before leaving the Battle Academy... We need to TEACH people how to play DUST 514 first... You can hand all the tools you want to a player... Computer generated Tracking systems.. Better suits, Guns... More SP... But it won't improve much if they don't understand the game. +1. Great suggestions and analysis, Bethy.
And in a way that minimizes time invested for CCP and will produce good results for new players.
I support SP rollover.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3561
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:The dark cloud wrote:"Hello there im your drill sergant here is your gun and there is the door to the battlefield". Now good luck soldier (kicks the rookie out of the door and quickly closes it). The rookie runs around for 10 secs and gets murdered instantly by vets who know every aspect of the game. Why does Dust514 doesnt has a training lvl like M.A.G. had? On mag you could do the training which told you the essential basics like throwing grenades, shoting, driving a vehicle, hacking a objective and repairing vehicles etc. Dust has nothing that explains the game mechanics which is really horrible. On the battlefinder once you made a new char there should be a "training session" highlighted which awards the newbie with maybe some equipment upon completion.
New players used to be in the "academy" longer. They decided 2 matches or whatever was enough at some point. /shrug They shortened the academy because surprise surprise people were farming it with alts for isk, so just like so much else its ****** up a good thing because of people looking to exploit something....
Somehow, it seems like that "fix" screwed new players more than old.
They could've reduced the rewards. They could have a parallel economy, where most of your battle rewards are in "Academy tokens" that are only good while you can still use the academy, and/or can only be used on skillbooks and STD equipment.
I wouldn't personally give them 2 million SP to start, or leave the SP uncapped to 5 million. I think that would be unlikely to happen to begin with because I assume a large chunk of AUR sales go towards boosters, and removing the cap removes a large incentive to use them.
I think something closer to the cerebral accelerators, etc. you can get on new characters in EVE, where you have something that's only good for X time or in this case... while you're in the academy or till you hit 30k/whatever WP. For the period it's active, your weekly SP cap is doubled (old-school doubling that impacts both passive and active battle sp, but not regular passive SP, and the double cap can be affected by boosters).
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1352
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 15:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:
I wouldn't personally give them 2 million SP to start, or leave the SP uncapped to 5 million. I think that would be unlikely to happen to begin with because I assume a large chunk of AUR sales go towards boosters, and removing the cap removes a large incentive to use them.
I think something closer to the cerebral accelerators, etc. you can get on new characters in EVE, where you have something that's only good for X time or in this case... while you're in the academy or till you hit 30k/whatever WP. For the period it's active, your weekly SP cap is doubled (old-school doubling that impacts both passive and active battle sp, but not regular passive SP, and the double cap can be affected by boosters).
Being able to use a Passive booster and active booster and still have to earn your SP? just no weekly cap limit that often turns people off at the start... When you become a vet though you see it as a necessity.
The boosters with that would still make a massive improvement... and people who use boosters and the 5m SP could become competitive on the DUST scene somewhat quickly.. Giving new up and coming corporations more Room to expand and get stronger within a few months instead of half a year and a handful of really good friends.
The main loss in sales would be Aurum Items reducing the skill need... As you will be able to gain basic set of gear somewhat quickly adverse to the slow purposeful grind of the weekly cap system. |
Dheez
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
74
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Posted - 2014.02.25 16:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Short timeframe in Academy means New Players will be forced to explore AUR fits (spend real money) if they ever expect to survive long enough against veterans, instead of relying solely on freebie startup kits.
I agree with the idea of longer Academy time with the option of respec once you graduate into the field. |
SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3
173
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Increase starting SP to 2 million. Increase Academy to 15,000 WP with an option to keep queuing in it until 30,000. Give one respec token (non transferrable, non refundable). Give 1 million starting ISK (non transferrable). Give 1 3-day active booster (non transferrable, non refundable).
Those are just some basic changes that would be both easy to apply (except maybe the respec token) and would make life a lot better for newer players. Until they get a bigger player-base and matchmaking is quite a bit better, it's always going to be rough for new players, though. I'd rather Let new characters Have the Weekly SP cap limits removed until 5 m Skill points. Get them hooked on that sweet persistent skill system drug early But really no player should leave the Battle academy without having a Quest to put down a nanohive and have 2 people get ammo from it. Put down a uplink and have 2 people spawn on it... Use a repair tool. Get 1 kill with a majority of the MLT weapon options.. Call in a MLT tank and get a kill with it. Call in a MLT dropship and stay in the air for 1 minute... Hack 10 objectives.. Hack 5 structures.. Destroy 1 structure... These are basic quests every New mercenary in DUST should have to do before leaving the Battle Academy... We need to TEACH people how to play DUST 514 first... You can hand all the tools you want to a player... Computer generated Tracking systems.. Better suits, Guns... More SP... But it won't improve much if they don't understand the game. You forgot about Squad Tasks ... maybe they can add a Command Academy from 15,000WP to 30,000WP, one step above Battle Academy, sort of advanced NUB's leading Raw NUB's
Become Squad Leader
Issue 1 of each type of Squad Order
Call in Warbarge Strike
nothing to see here ... move along
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waistr
planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate
115
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Posted - 2014.02.25 19:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Reality check
give away free isk? SP? weapons? suits?
how are you going to start that ?
LetGÇÖs say you start today, what about the player that started, yesterday, last week, last month, last year? everyone will want it.
Give them all the sp in the world they are still going to be slaughtered for months no way around that fact, we all were.
Trying to make it easy for them at the start will not change anything, they will still go out into the real game and face a squad of
WTF,( we all know how that will end), some will still quit some will stay.
this is a hardcore shooter with consequences, itGÇÖs the reason I play
I have 30 mil SP and still toss the controller across the room.
Make joining a corporation mandatory part of character creation is the best solution, Im always willing to teach from my mistakes,
lots of us are, I've made plenty
This is a harsh game.
.
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Faunher
Ivory Vanguard
135
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Posted - 2014.02.25 19:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
waistr wrote:Reality check
give away free isk? SP? weapons? suits?
how are you going to start that ?
LetGÇÖs say you start today, what about the player that started, yesterday, last week, last month, last year? everyone will want it.
Give them all the sp in the world they are still going to be slaughtered for months no way around that fact, we all were.
Trying to make it easy for them at the start will not change anything, they will still go out into the real game and face a squad of
WTF,( we all know how that will end), some will still quit some will stay.
this is a hardcore shooter with consequences, itGÇÖs the reason I play
I have 30 mil SP and still toss the controller across the room.
Make joining a corporation mandatory part of character creation is the best solution, Im always willing to teach from my mistakes,
lots of us are, I've made plenty
This is a harsh game.
.
This is pretty much the same philosophy CCP has adopted, not necessarily in plan, but in action. Do you know what the consequence of that is? An unfriendly environment that does not encourage retention of new players, but rewards veterans who exploit the naivety and general lack of knowledge of these new players. Games that have no incoming players die.
It's true that New Eden is tough as **** and can be a cruel mistress, but this newbie-phobia that CCP has seemed to adopt is killing Dust.
This game has massive potential, but the basic fundamental aspects of it are so horribly flawed. |
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