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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3539	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:16:00 - [1] - Quote Scouts are more about speed, and the Amarr advantage of "hp" is pointless in the scout class of suits. Sacrificing speed to get 30hp on a non-tanking suit is utterly pointless, like putting thick layers of bulletproof glass on racing car. I say this because of the dreary state of the Amarr Scout in particular to lack a comparable speed edge over the Assault class. Don't mistake me, the Amarr Scout would still be the "worst" scout with the worst bonuses after dropping 30hp for increased speed. It would just be an actual scout at that point. I'd take it even further and say you could drop the innate stamina bonus too. In either case, actual suit speed will serve a scout better than 30 hp and a 4% speed hit (a larger speed hit than you'd have for enhanced plates). The Amarr hp-for-speed tradeoff is questionable even on the tanking suits, but it's completely self-defeating on speed-based suits. The Amarr who can make the second fastest ships in EVE were somehow unable to avoid strapping on extraneous armor plates to their speed-based suit? It's stupid. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 236	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:19:00 - [2] - Quote I'm just gonna put this here Suggested Speed Changes
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1088	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:21:00 - [3] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Scouts are more about speed, and the Amarr advantage of "hp" is pointless in the scout class of suits. Sacrificing speed to get 30hp on a non-tanking suit is utterly pointless, like putting thick layers of bulletproof glass on racing car. I say this because of the dreary state of the Amarr Scout in particular to lack a comparable speed edge over the Assault class. Don't mistake me, the Amarr Scout would still be the "worst" scout with the worst bonuses after dropping 30hp for increased speed. It would just be an actual scout at that point. I'd take it even further and say you could drop the innate stamina bonus too. In either case, actual suit speed will serve a scout better than 30 hp and a 4% speed hit (a larger speed hit than you'd have for enhanced plates). The Amarr hp-for-speed tradeoff is questionable even on the tanking suits, but it's completely self-defeating on speed-based suits. The Amarr who can make the second fastest ships in EVE were somehow unable to avoid strapping on extraneous armor plates to their speed-based suit? It's stupid. ^ this. Please revamp the Amarr scout. A unique slot layout would be nice, also- maybe 1 high 5 low? Something not the same as any other scout. Every other suit class has it, except commando, which is understandable because for the commando's slot count getting 4 unique layouts would require one suit to have either 0 highs or 0 lows.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3547	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:33:00 - [4] - Quote Hagintora wrote: I'm just gonna put this here Suggested Speed Changes I wouldn't mind some speed changes to all the suits really; I mention the business with the Amarr scout specifically since it's such a large handicap to that role. I also think people get caught up with criticizing the bonus (which IS bad), and miss the larger problem of gimpy speed. That, or they have some silly notions about the Amarr being a great "tank" scout, when it will be overshadowed by Assaults with the same speed and more slots. It's also beaten at that role by faster scouts like the Gallente who have other bonuses to boot and will hp-tank/speed-tank better at the same time, or Shield-based scouts like the Caldari that can leverage the super-high scout shield regen better. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 138	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:38:00 - [5] - Quote I agree that 30 hep is nothing. Even a complex shield extender is nothing. The way the game is right now, whoever does the more damage wins.... I also never understood why an enhanced armor plate give your 110 hp and a complex give 135 hp ( just 25 more hp) but the CPU and PG doubles. One single bullet does more than 25 hp of damage!!!! That is why the game is so unbalanced!! I think I went a little of track here, sorry
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 678	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:43:00 - [6] - Quote Amarr are better in the heavy classes not the scout class, balance and all that.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:46:00 - [7] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: I wouldn't mind some speed changes to all the suits really; I mention the business with the Amarr scout specifically since it's such a large handicap to that role. I also think people get caught up with criticizing the bonus (which IS bad), and miss the larger problem of gimpy speed. That, or they have some silly notions about the Amarr being a great "tank" scout, when it will be overshadowed by Assaults with the same speed and more slots. It's also beaten at that role by faster scouts like the Gallente who have other bonuses to boot and will hp-tank/speed-tank better at the same time, or Shield-based scouts like the Caldari that can leverage the super-high scout shield regen better. I agree completely. The thread is just my suggestion on how to fix one aspect of the Amarr Scout. But even with the speed changes the bonuses still need work to help bring it in line with the other scouts.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 543	Posted - 2014.02.25 04:19:00 - [8] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: like putting thick layers of bulletproof glass on racing car. I feel like this would be really useful for a war zone actually, but I digress...GALLENTE SCOUT FTW! This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3555	Posted - 2014.02.25 09:09:00 - [9] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: Amarr are better in the heavy classes not the scout class, balance and all that. That's the point of my suggestion. The scout would clearly be worse, but it would be a scout. The way they choose to balance the Amarr against other races doesn't work when the defining factor of that role is speed. If they did nothing but subtract the hp and add the speed, the Amarr scout would be a better scout, but still woefully worse than the others - that falls perfectly into your statement. It's also debatable if the Amarr is "better" in the heavy classes, as we've only had the Amarr Heavy so far. I think some people may feel the speed you get from the other heavies makes them better than the trade-off in hp. I use the EVE example of ships because it's possible to "balance" races, and still have them able to fill roles. Forcing hp and speed to be the balancing factor on every single role/item in the game isn't balance, it's stupidity. The game has a number of stats with which to balance the races to make them different while not necessarily "better", and the point at which the scout doesn't have their speed... it's not an issue of better/worse, it's an issue of not being able to fill the role. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 617	Posted - 2014.02.25 11:24:00 - [10] - Quote Its more of a general problem for all scouts. The speed difference betwenn meduim frames and souts is roughly 10% that's not so much if you consider that meds have 65% more base eHP with the possibility to speed tank close to scouts speed while having more ehp. (numbers are based on gallente/cal scout and meds as average) Currently the only advantage that makes a scout a viable suit is the low scan profile. BUT buffing speed is a tricky thing as high speed scouts broke HD before. I don't want a comeback of bullet dancing scout suits that can run head of through the bulletstream of a HMG without beeing hit. As long as HD can handle more speed I am all for a speed buff. Another option would be a serious stamina buff for scouts, so they can sustain their speed way longer than assaults..

maka rax Space Road Truckers. 15	Posted - 2014.02.25 12:06:00 - [11] - Quote You sort of have to go back to Eve to figure out why Minni scouts would make "better" scouts (in your example). Minmatar are all about speed. Look at the ships in Eve and you'll see this. Now, look at the LARGE ships in eve. Where speed doesn't matter. Minni has some lacking features. Point is, in the scout class of suits if "speed is king" then Minmatar SHOULD be hailed to. I think the larger problem (and possibly should be in it's own thread) is that there isn't a blanket "Scout" skill. What I mean is, in EVE, you can get LVL 5 Minmatar Frigate but to fly the specialized Minmatar Intercepter you need the racial neuter "Interceptor" skill. You can see this ALL over the Eve tech tree. We shouldn't have to decide, seriously, to put all our stock in ONE specialized racial suit. It blands the game, and puts unnecessary restrictions on players which become very frustrating. Rather than trying to tit-for-tat the specialized suits, requirements for them should change. For example: Gallente Pro Scout: Req = LvL 5 Gallente Light + LvL 5 Scout Now, the Light class is a much easier skill to level in which would make it much much easier to try different scout suits. Thus, you'll get all your cake and eat it too.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3558	Posted - 2014.02.25 12:58:00 - [12] - Quote maka rax wrote: You sort of have to go back to Eve to figure out why Minni scouts would make "better" scouts (in your example). Minmatar are all about speed. Look at the ships in Eve and you'll see this. Now, look at the LARGE ships in eve. Where speed doesn't matter. Minni has some lacking features. Point is, in the scout class of suits if "speed is king" then Minmatar SHOULD be hailed to. I don't disagree that the Minmatar should be the fastest, but the roles are managed more discretely in EVE. Also, when we talk about LARGE ships, we basically get into the Dust vehicles. Our dropsuits are specialist frigates for most intents and purposes. I've trotted out this example before, but with respect to the ship speed comparisons: Interceptors: Minmatar Claw 475 m/s Amarr 455 m/s Caldari Crow 430 m/s Gallente Ares 425 m/s The Amarr is the 2nd fastest, and their fastest ship outstrips the fastest Gallente/Caldari by a larger margin than the Claw has on the Crusader. Those are the empire's "fast" ships. Let's do a role comparison though, here are the fastest Assault frigs: Minmatar Jaguar 357 m/s Gallente Enyo 288 m/s Amarr retribution 278 m/s Caldari Hawk 273 m/s The Amarr isn't the slowest here either, but the Minmatar still has a huge lead. Fine. Minmatar are fast. Here's the point though, the fastest of these assaults is still much slower than the interceptors. The slowest interceptor (among the fastest) is still 20% faster than the fastest assault. The ROLES are clearly defined. The fast ships are all faster than the assaults. That is what the Amarr Scout lacks. The role definition of speed. I think balancing around basically two factors (speed and hp) is detrimental to diversity and racial variety. You can differentiate the races in other ways. Supposedly the speed cap is an issue, but it should be possible to adjust all the speeds at the same time to maintain scout-speed superiority over the assaults. The Amarr Scout will be the ONLY one without the speed advantage as-is. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3568	Posted - 2014.02.25 19:42:00 - [13] - Quote The Terminator T-1000 wrote: I agree that 30 hp is nothing. Even a complex shield extender is nothing. The way the game is right now, whoever does the more damage wins.... I also never understood why an enhanced armor plate gives you 110 hp and a complex gives 135 hp ( just 25 more hp) but the CPU and PG doubles. One single bullet does more than 25 hp of damage!!!! That is why the game is so unbalanced!! I think I went a little of track here, sorry I'd hope the TTK adjustments help with this, but I certainly agree that hp increments barely make a difference as things stand right now. When a new player is introduced to the game and afforded the opportunity to select modules, under what circumstances should they believe that a 22 hp shield extender will help them (STD/MLT)? For most weapons, that's not even a round. For high damage ones, it's unlikely to be the difference in life or death. Let's say you've skilled up and you now have an ADV Shield extender. How much better is 33 hp, really? It's a general issue, but I can't actually picture any scenario where 30 hp would be more useful to a scout than the speed the Amarr suit seemingly gives up for it. It ceases to be a proper scout so it can fail at combat apparently. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2394	Posted - 2014.02.25 22:14:00 - [14] - Quote COUGH DAMPS COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH RANGE COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH ULITMATE SCANNING SUIT COUGH COUGH. Listen I'll change the song every week
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1802	Posted - 2014.02.25 22:19:00 - [15] - Quote Are you driving that race car through a warzone where a big glowing blue light could mean your instant demise? If so, then maybe you'll want that Bulletproof glass. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3578	Posted - 2014.02.25 22:36:00 - [16] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: COUGH DAMPS COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH RANGE COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH ULITMATE SCANNING SUIT COUGH COUGH. That said, I'm not interested in taking anything away from the Gallente. I just want the Amarr to have a scout as well. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3578	Posted - 2014.02.25 22:40:00 - [17] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Are you driving that race car through a warzone where a big glowing blue light could mean your instant demise? If so, then maybe you'll want that Bulletproof glass. The more practical approach would be to not take a race car (which would be crap on anything that wasn't a paved road) onto the warzone. Stock cars are stripped down for speed, which is why you wouldn't add something like heavy armor to them... it would defeat the point. This would be the case even if an Armor manufacturer was the sponsor of said car, because weighing a speed-focused vehicle down to live up to some abstract association you have is a bad idea. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 212	Posted - 2014.02.26 05:50:00 - [18] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Killar-12 wrote: COUGH DAMPS COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH RANGE COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH ULITMATE SCANNING SUIT COUGH COUGH. That said, I'm not interested in taking anything away from the Gallente. I just want the Amarr to have a scout as well. Yeah. I had mixed feelings on the whole idea of an "assault logi" to begin with. Is their Assault not Assault enough? Does the race need a logi that half-asses the role? The "assault" element turned out to mean "add sidearm" and "get equipment slots later and have fewer slots overall". Super. The shifts on the Sentinel/Heavy suits already call to mind questions of why exactly the Amarr medium will be shorted a slot now. At least it's still two equipment slots. An "assault scout" that has more hp and assault-level speed is just asinine though. It's about as useful as male nipples. Scouts need to be scouts. I'd gladly give up the natural stamina advantage and 30 hp to actually be a GODDAMN scout. Jesus... I feel like CCP went fullretard deciding to apply "LOL, SLOWER & PLUS HP" to everything Amarr.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3623	Posted - 2014.02.27 18:34:00 - [19] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Killar-12 wrote: COUGH DAMPS COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH RANGE COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH ULITMATE SCANNING SUIT COUGH COUGH. That said, I'm not interested in taking anything away from the Gallente. I just want the Amarr to have a scout as well. Yeah. I had mixed feelings on the whole idea of an "assault logi" to begin with. Is their Assault not Assault enough? Does the race need a logi that half-asses the role? The "assault" element turned out to mean "add sidearm" and "get equipment slots later and have fewer slots overall". Super. The shifts on the Sentinel/Heavy suits already call to mind questions of why exactly the Amarr medium will be shorted a slot now. At least it's still two equipment slots. An "assault scout" that has more hp and assault-level speed is just asinine though. It's about as useful as male nipples. Scouts need to be scouts. I'd gladly give up the natural stamina advantage and 30 hp to actually be a GODDAMN scout. Jesus... I feel like CCP went fullretard deciding to apply "LOL, SLOWER & PLUS HP" to everything Amarr. Races having tendencies is one thing, making all of the races role-suits into effectively "hybrids" that may not be able to accomplish the role in question is a poor idea to me. With respect to the logi in particular, I think losing +5 innate reps and armor repairer bonus will probably be scaling back it's "assault" traits to a large degree. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 799	Posted - 2014.02.27 19:03:00 - [20] - Quote 2 H 4 L The highest base HP/stamina/stamina regen in scout class With a bonus to stamina, alleviating the need for Cardiac Regulators So thats 4 low slots on a decent starting HP.... With this layout the Amarr scout can have the best HP and a very good DMG out-put Personally I think everyone is fussing over nothing.... The Amarr Scout will fulfill a combat role, like the Matari Scout Without the disadvantage of lacking low slots for speed/dampening/repair/armour And still having 2 high slots, to enhance DMG or HP Depending on Matari scout layout, I'm strongly considering the Amarr As I feel it will have more advantages than the suicidal Matari equivalent And may benefit from cloaking more than the Matari as the lows slots on Amarr Can be used to buff overall fitting cost.... You people are crazy Plasma Cannons performs its suppresion/infantry denial role perfectly Pity dust players only perform one role - slaying

Vell0cet SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 998	Posted - 2014.02.27 19:18:00 - [21] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: 2 H 4 L The highest base HP/stamina/stamina regen in scout class With a bonus to stamina, alleviating the need for Cardiac Regulators So thats 4 low slots on a decent starting HP.... With this layout the Amarr scout can have the best HP and a very good DMG out-put Personally I think everyone is fussing over nothing.... The Amarr Scout will fulfill a combat role, like the Matari Scout Without the disadvantage of lacking low slots for speed/dampening/repair/armour And still having 2 high slots, to enhance DMG or HP Depending on Matari scout layout, I'm strongly considering the Amarr As I feel it will have more advantages than the suicidal Matari equivalent And may benefit from cloaking more than the Matari as the lows slots on Amarr Can be used to buff overall fitting cost.... You people are crazy If you try to play the Amarr scout like an assault, I think you're going to be VERY disappointed. Best PvE idea ever!
Dehlia Metii not in a corporation 73	Posted - 2014.02.28 07:03:00 - [22] - Quote Wanna hear something lulzy? They're introducing new MLT frames for the missing suit types I assume. So... Fossil Logistics. It's a Minmatar MLT suit with Assault HP and Speed, but 2 equip slots. So, There's a "Low-level" Minmatar Assault that'll run faster than the Amarr Light, have more hp, and have 2 equip slots. Pretty groovy, right? Seriously though. If they knocked off the hp and added to the speed, I might actually use the Amarr Scout. Otherwise it's basically the death/gimpsuit.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3638	Posted - 2014.02.28 16:04:00 - [23] - Quote Dehlia Metii wrote: Wanna hear something lulzy? They're introducing new MLT frames for the missing suit types I assume. So... Fossil Logistics. It's a Minmatar MLT suit with Assault HP and Speed, but 2 equip slots. So, There's a "Low-level" Minmatar Assault that'll run faster than the Amarr Light, have more hp, and have 2 equip slots. Pretty groovy, right? Seriously though. If they knocked off the hp and added to the speed, I might actually use the Amarr Scout. Otherwise it's basically the death/gimpsuit. The Fossil is something of an exception to the normal rule. It's the only "logi" suit with assault hp, and it's MLT with only 2 equip slots. It still gives up a sidearm as well. I'm not too worried about MLT level competition. The Amarr Scout will have balance issues from STD to PRO on account of the lack of speed. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
killertojo42 Sardaukar Merc Guild 34	Posted - 2014.02.28 16:38:00 - [24] - Quote They should just increase the amaar scout speed but keep it slower than all other scouts and let the health bonus stay, seriously 30 extra hp on a scout doesn't threaten my assault suit When walking on the battlefield i stand alone
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 214	Posted - 2014.03.01 04:30:00 - [25] - Quote killertojo42 wrote: They should just increase the amaar scout speed but keep it slower than all other scouts and let the health bonus stay, seriously 30 extra hp on a scout doesn't threaten my assault suit As the OP pointed out, even with the same speed as the Gallente and -30 health... he'd still be the worst scout. I agree with the principle though - at least he'd be a scout.
Soldier Sorajord Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2014.03.01 04:36:00 - [26] - Quote Gallente scout will have the ability to be the quickest, since it has the ability to run the most Stamina Regulators and Kin Cats. They won't run as long as the Amarr though. But their sprints can be much quicker. Click Here to set up a Character that will get an AR, SMG, and a Caldari BPO
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 214	Posted - 2014.03.01 04:37:00 - [27] - Quote Soldier Sorajord wrote: Gallente scout will have the ability to be the quickest, since it has the ability to run the most Stamina Regulators and Kin Cats. They won't run as long as the Amarr though. But their sprints can be much quicker. I think you missed the point of this thread.
Freya Tegley Algintal Core Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2014.03.01 04:56:00 - [28] - Quote This is an interesting "thought experiment", and yeah - it would be more of a "scout" if it were faster and the 30hp don't really help. Wasn't there some issue with having scouts over a certain speed though? The game engine bursts into flames when players run over whatever speed or something like that. Are you suggesting that a "fix" would just make an Amarr the same speed as Gal/Cal? That all the scouts need to be moved up accordingly? That all the game suits (Medium, etc.) need to adjusted to fit in a proper speed advantage?
Melai For'Aiur Shining Flame Amarr Empire 22	Posted - 2014.03.01 04:57:00 - [29] - Quote They need to do SOMETHING. The Amarr aren't getting an actual scout with things the way they're looking now.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 1008	Posted - 2014.03.01 05:03:00 - [30] - Quote same as saying the minmitar sentinel will be useless because it can't stack as many plates and doesn't have as high base HP as other suits Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!



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