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Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 577	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:42:00 - [1] - Quote Identifying the Problem Tanks need to be fixed before they go implementing a infantry patch. Makes no sense to do all this infantry work, when infantry are struggling (namely ambush) to deal with tanks, or I should say, the sheer number of tanks. This problem has nothing to do with the strength of AV or the strength of tanks. I think that this problem is rather specific. In ambush, having 6 tanks on one side, basically means a win. Though, as I have been doing a lot of domination of late, the same can apply to that mode as well. Map dependent of course. And of course skirmish, tanks can have a large impact, but at least infantry generally has a place to go, and plenty of room to frolic. Tanks have always been somewhat of a problem in ambush, though pre 1.7 they were very easy to deal with. Now though, they are nearly impossible for anything but a forge gun or tank, and even then it can be a struggle. One tank, not an issue, though 6 tanks and you are going to have a bad time, mkay. From my personal experience, a lot of this is due to milita tanks. Very rarely do I ever blow up an actual gunnlogi or maddie. Milta tanks are incredibly cheap, and very powerful. Because of this, it is very easy to spam. Given the new resistances and reps, these things can also be impossible for any infantry AV, especially when you have enemy AI running around. But, there is a trend going around atm. Did you know, that tanking pre 1.7 actually wasn't that awful at one time. While I did get blown up quite often starting out, I was able to survive much longer until swarms came along. See in the beginning, a LOT of people were just starting out. Then a triple SP event came around, and guess what happened. Everyone and their mothers speced into swarm launchers, thus the tanker QQ got thick and heavy. People figured out, hey, swarm launchers murder tanks, thus more swarms were on the field. Guess what we just had (hint hint, a triple SP event) What I'm noticing, are a lot more STD tanks on the field. So even if they were to do something with milita, tanks will still be a problem. It will shift from MLT tanks to STD tanks. Adjust cost on MLT tanks to better reflect their power (they are very similar in power to their STD couterpart) cost needs to certainly increase. This WILL stop the spam. But still, I think the focus will simply shift to the STD tanks. You think MLT tanks are bad, try an SP invested tank. The solutions What I would like to see, is an overall price hike on tanks in general. Say a fit for a pro tank is a Mil. A MLT fit should be at 400 to 500K So tanks in general will cost you half a mil to a mil to run per game. Given their power, this is totally fair. Add WP for tank damage, make it appealing to run AV against a tank. Next, WP for tank damage needs to be implemented. What this does, is make it very appealing to actually attempt AV against a tank. So one tank rolls up, and over half the team switches to AV, that tank WILL die, AV will get a good chunk for the effort, and tanks will still require multiple people to take them out. Everyone's happier. And of course, tanks need to be FINISHED ALREADY. I've already put out my idea's on tank fixes but for the mean time, what I stated here should happen with the 1.8 release. No buffing of AV, or nerfing of tanks. Things are in a better spot than you think with tank balance, the problem though is the ease at which people can run tanks, which results in the "TANK SPAM" and the cries to nerf tanks. Rather than doing something stupidly drastic ( again ) make these small changes so you can actually focus on balancing the numbers. Fix the actual problems not the skewed misinterpretations of people less familiar with tanks! TL;DR Nuff Said
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2547	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:46:00 - [2] - Quote lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think Intelligence is OP
buzzzzzzz killllllllll TRA1LBLAZERS 291	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:48:00 - [3] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think taka, they are getting nerfed no matter what, u cant save ur precious win machines
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1825	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:50:00 - [4] - Quote CCP fixed tanks already. Infantry forced them to. Why aren't you happy with what you forced on them? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 579	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:51:00 - [5] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think OMFG TAKA what is wrong with you. Did you EVEN READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. I clearly stated that nerfing tanks or buffing AV isn't the answer. Please READ WHAT IS SAID before responding. Nuff Said
Awry Barux New Eden Blades Of The Azure Zero-Day 613	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:51:00 - [6] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think F--k your false dichotomy. A well balanced game is balanced both for casual and competitive play.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2552	Posted - 2014.02.15 19:29:00 - [7] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think OMFG TAKA what is wrong with you. Did you EVEN READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. I clearly stated that nerfing tanks or buffing AV isn't the answer. Please READ WHAT IS SAID before responding. Generally i assume that you are crying about tanks, most tanks threads are QQ and wanting a nerf but the point still stands anyway We dont have adv tanks let alone proto so cost wise 750k for std because proto tanks will be 2mil+ if we ever get them Intelligence is OP
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2540	Posted - 2014.02.15 19:31:00 - [8] - Quote Or you know, replace the large blaster turret with a large plasma cannon type turret I'll start my own war, with hookers, and blackjack! In fact forget the war and the blackjack.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 580	Posted - 2014.02.15 19:35:00 - [9] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Or you know, replace the large blaster turret with a large plasma cannon type turret I've made numerous posts on that subject, I'll be sure to link my turret thread as well if anyone is interested. This though is a start, as 1.8 is shaping up to be very infantry focused. Nuff Said
Kitt 514 True North. 105	Posted - 2014.02.15 19:47:00 - [10] - Quote As much as I hate the reality of it... militia tanks are what me and my friends use as a counter to tanks. Getting merc'd by tanks? The group of us call in a militia railgun tank each, and go to work. 3 railguns with damage mods makes short work of ANY tank.

Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2240	Posted - 2014.02.15 20:04:00 - [11] - Quote If tanks stay the same, but AV is not buffed then leave MLT tanks as they are or buff them to extreme levels. Tanks are balanced, AV is far too weak. Buffing AV would mean less MLT tanks on the field. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
steelRatt L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2014.02.15 20:29:00 - [12] - Quote Tank vs dropship/assault DS Tank wins (tho a ADS can kill a tank if lucky) Tank vs infantry Tank wins (unless there is a few av in the mix) Tank vs tank Tank wins Dropship/assault vs infantry DS wins (unless there's a rail tank in the redline or a few forge gunners see you swarms not so much of a problem sorry swarm guys ) Are tanks OP for the cost and what they bring to a fight yes they are my proto forge suit cost close to 200K my ADS over 500k. That's more then a sica or a soma. We all no what problems there are in the game coz we all play it ccp no coz we all ***** about it. Defeat dose not exist to them that are willing.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1703	Posted - 2014.02.15 20:34:00 - [13] - Quote steelRatt wrote: Tank vs dropship/assault DS Tank wins (tho a ADS can kill a tank if lucky) Tank vs infantry Tank wins (unless there is a few av in the mix) Tank vs tank Tank wins Dropship/assault vs infantry DS wins (unless there's a rail tank in the redline or a few forge gunners see you swarms not so much of a problem sorry swarm guys ) Are tanks OP for the cost and what they bring to a fight yes they are my proto forge suit cost close to 200K my ADS over 500k. That's more then a sica or a soma. We all no what problems there are in the game coz we all play it ccp no coz we all ***** about it. if a DS gets killed by a non-rail HAV, the pilot sucks. If infantry gets killed by a HAV, they either suck, was put in aposition where they would've been killed either way, or the pilot is just good. That last one is correct. ANd no, the price is fine, they just need adjustments. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 581	Posted - 2014.02.15 20:54:00 - [14] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: If tanks stay the same, but AV is not buffed then leave MLT tanks as they are or buff them to extreme levels. Tanks are balanced, AV is far too weak. Buffing AV would mean less MLT tanks on the field. This also doesn't take into consideration dropships, or STD tanks. How much would that hurt tanks overall giving buffs across the board to AV? Agreed that swarms need a few tweaks, but the other forms are ok. I personally pro tank, but I do have an AV fit with proto swarms. And I will say, it has killed quite a few MLT tanks. We really need to first identfy our problems here. Is it that AV is to weak or are there simply too many tanks per match for AV to effectively deal with. I vote for the latter. Adding in WP for tank damage too, would encourage more people to actually pull out AV and rack up some WP. I've had a match where at least 6 people were running proto swarms. Tanks quite literally crumbled before us. With SL of all things. Get one tank kill, cost that player half a mil, he will really consider whether it's worth it or not to call in another. Nuff Said
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 581	Posted - 2014.02.15 20:57:00 - [15] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: steelRatt wrote: Tank vs dropship/assault DS Tank wins (tho a ADS can kill a tank if lucky) Tank vs infantry Tank wins (unless there is a few av in the mix) Tank vs tank Tank wins Dropship/assault vs infantry DS wins (unless there's a rail tank in the redline or a few forge gunners see you swarms not so much of a problem sorry swarm guys ) Are tanks OP for the cost and what they bring to a fight yes they are my proto forge suit cost close to 200K my ADS over 500k. That's more then a sica or a soma. We all no what problems there are in the game coz we all play it ccp no coz we all ***** about it. if a DS gets killed by a non-rail HAV, the pilot sucks. If infantry gets killed by a HAV, they either suck, was put in aposition where they would've been killed either way, or the pilot is just good. That last one is correct. ANd no, the price is fine, they just need adjustments. The price isn't fine, I think that is evident in any PUB match you play. Tanks 514 of late. Nuff Said
steelRatt L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:38:00 - [16] - Quote One way to let the tanks stay as they are that would make DS pilots happy and I think the ground troops to is make the tiny maps we have biggerand remove redline. If the maps bigger ground troops get room to move and DS pilots can find places to hide tanks could stay as is and we would have to worries about 7 tanks on top of you. Then you could get av hunting party's just a thought Defeat dose not exist to them that are willing.
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 695	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:42:00 - [17] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think nobody plays PC. Not even the Heathens are playing. Who wants some?
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 608	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:44:00 - [18] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think Tankahiro, where is my public apology, after i proved you wrong about rail turrets oh so long ago? I still am anticipating it Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4690	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:58:00 - [19] - Quote Last night I probably had one of the best GGs against you and your squad in a long time. But where they he!l did you come from? I checked my mini-map and you weren't there, so I figured I could go ambush that Soma and out pops a Particle Cannon [/threadjack] Want to know how to make a strike-through? [s[Example[/s] Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4690	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:59:00 - [20] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: if a DS gets killed by a non-rail HAV, the pilot sucks. If infantry gets killed by a HAV, they either suck, was put in aposition where they would've been killed either way, or the pilot is just good. That last one is correct. ANd no, the price is fine, they just need adjustments. So if that's the case, you recognize me as a skilled pilot? And duna2002 is one of the best tankers in the game? Want to know how to make a strike-through? [s[Example[/s] Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!

Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 584	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:41:00 - [21] - Quote Atiim wrote: Last night I probably had one of the best GGs against you and your squad in a long time. But where they he!l did you come from? I checked my mini-map and you weren't there, so I figured I could go ambush that Soma and out pops a Particle Cannon [/threadjack] Hah, situational awareness. I was actively tracking you from the fringes. I generally will find a nice high vantage point, jump out of my tank and scan around. In this way, you won't notice a big tank, and I know exactly where you are, where you are looking, and how to approach without you noticing. I pretty much HAVE to know where all tanks are on the field at all times, before I go looking for trouble. Ninja tank lol. For all your tank QQ, you can def play tanks. You certainly kept me on my toes. New tankers don't understand that a good tanker, constantly moves. Otherwise you are askin to be ambushed! It was def a GG, I rarely lose tanks, and usually only to the better tankers. GG Nuff Said
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 1693	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:49:00 - [22] - Quote steelRatt wrote: Tank vs dropship/assault DS Tank wins (tho a ADS can kill a tank if lucky) Tank vs infantry Tank wins (unless there is a few av in the mix) Tank vs tank Tank wins Dropship/assault vs infantry DS wins (unless there's a rail tank in the redline or a few forge gunners see you swarms not so much of a problem sorry swarm guys ) Are tanks OP for the cost and what they bring to a fight yes they are my proto forge suit cost close to 200K my ADS over 500k. That's more then a sica or a soma. We all no what problems there are in the game coz we all play it ccp no coz we all ***** about it. You have never met Sir Snugglz. Tanker/Forum warrior lvl. 1 Math is OP (don't tell the politicians)/ logic+intelligence=OP Prof. V scrub Q_Q
Bormir1r WarRavens League of Infamy 60	Posted - 2014.02.15 23:18:00 - [23] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Identifying the Problem Tanks need to be fixed before they go implementing a infantry patch. Makes no sense to do all this infantry work, when infantry are struggling (namely ambush) to deal with tanks, or I should say, the sheer number of tanks. This problem has nothing to do with the strength of AV or the strength of tanks. I think that this problem is rather specific. In ambush, having 6 tanks on one side, basically means a win. Though, as I have been doing a lot of domination of late, the same can apply to that mode as well. Map dependent of course. And of course skirmish, tanks can have a large impact, but at least infantry generally has a place to go, and plenty of room to frolic. Tanks have always been somewhat of a problem in ambush, though pre 1.7 they were very easy to deal with. Now though, they are nearly impossible for anything but a forge gun or tank, and even then it can be a struggle. One tank, not an issue, though 6 tanks and you are going to have a bad time, mkay. From my personal experience, a lot of this is due to milita tanks. Very rarely do I ever blow up an actual gunnlogi or maddie. Milta tanks are incredibly cheap, and very powerful. Because of this, it is very easy to spam. Given the new resistances and reps, these things can also be impossible for any infantry AV, especially when you have enemy AI running around. But, there is a trend going around atm. Did you know, that tanking pre 1.7 actually wasn't that awful at one time. While I did get blown up quite often starting out, I was able to survive much longer until swarms came along. See in the beginning, a LOT of people were just starting out. Then a triple SP event came around, and guess what happened. Everyone and their mothers speced into swarm launchers, thus the tanker QQ got thick and heavy. People figured out, hey, swarm launchers murder tanks, thus more swarms were on the field. Guess what we just had (hint hint, a triple SP event) What I'm noticing, are a lot more STD tanks on the field. So even if they were to do something with milita, tanks will still be a problem. It will shift from MLT tanks to STD tanks. Adjust cost on MLT tanks to better reflect their power (they are very similar in power to their STD couterpart) cost needs to certainly increase. This WILL stop the spam. But still, I think the focus will simply shift to the STD tanks. You think MLT tanks are bad, try an SP invested tank. The solutions What I would like to see, is an overall price hike on tanks in general. Say a fit for a pro tank is a Mil. A MLT fit should be at 400 to 500K So tanks in general will cost you half a mil to a mil to run per game. Given their power, this is totally fair. Add WP for tank damage, make it appealing to run AV against a tank. Next, WP for tank damage needs to be implemented. What this does, is make it very appealing to actually attempt AV against a tank. So one tank rolls up, and over half the team switches to AV, that tank WILL die, AV will get a good chunk for the effort, and tanks will still require multiple people to take them out. Everyone's happier. And of course, tanks need to be FINISHED ALREADY. I've already put out my idea's on tank fixes but for the mean time, what I stated here should happen with the 1.8 release. No buffing of AV, or nerfing of tanks. Things are in a better spot than you think with tank balance, the problem though is the ease at which people can run tanks, which results in the "TANK SPAM" and the cries to nerf tanks. Rather than doing something stupidly drastic ( again ) make these small changes so you can actually focus on balancing the numbers. Fix the actual problems not the skewed misinterpretations of people less familiar with tanks! TL;DR I would feel better if AVs were buffed slightly (not to pre-1.7 specs) but half of the gap between the damage of the pre and post-1.7 AVs should be gone. Essentially 1.8 AVs should be (pre 1.7 damage - post 1.7 damage)/2 + post 1.7 damage. Then AVs would be more viable against tanks, but other than that I agree that increasing the prices of tanks is an excellent idea, especially for militia. Care to mention any solutions to the dropship? Minja. We run and hide. And then we kill you.
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 403	Posted - 2014.02.15 23:20:00 - [24] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think They are also balanced in skirmish and domination... thought the redline needs to be fixed in dom. -Luck is just one of my skills Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 506	Posted - 2014.02.15 23:22:00 - [25] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Identifying the Problem Tanks need to be fixed before they go implementing a infantry patch. Makes no sense to do all this infantry work, when infantry are struggling (namely ambush) to deal with tanks, or I should say, the sheer number of tanks. This problem has nothing to do with the strength of AV or the strength of tanks. I think that this problem is rather specific. In ambush, having 6 tanks on one side, basically means a win. Though, as I have been doing a lot of domination of late, the same can apply to that mode as well. Map dependent of course. And of course skirmish, tanks can have a large impact, but at least infantry generally has a place to go, and plenty of room to frolic. Tanks have always been somewhat of a problem in ambush, though pre 1.7 they were very easy to deal with. Now though, they are nearly impossible for anything but a forge gun or tank, and even then it can be a struggle. One tank, not an issue, though 6 tanks and you are going to have a bad time, mkay. From my personal experience, a lot of this is due to milita tanks. Very rarely do I ever blow up an actual gunnlogi or maddie. Milta tanks are incredibly cheap, and very powerful. Because of this, it is very easy to spam. Given the new resistances and reps, these things can also be impossible for any infantry AV, especially when you have enemy AI running around. But, there is a trend going around atm. Did you know, that tanking pre 1.7 actually wasn't that awful at one time. While I did get blown up quite often starting out, I was able to survive much longer until swarms came along. See in the beginning, a LOT of people were just starting out. Then a triple SP event came around, and guess what happened. Everyone and their mothers speced into swarm launchers, thus the tanker QQ got thick and heavy. People figured out, hey, swarm launchers murder tanks, thus more swarms were on the field. Guess what we just had (hint hint, a triple SP event) What I'm noticing, are a lot more STD tanks on the field. So even if they were to do something with milita, tanks will still be a problem. It will shift from MLT tanks to STD tanks. Adjust cost on MLT tanks to better reflect their power (they are very similar in power to their STD couterpart) cost needs to certainly increase. This WILL stop the spam. But still, I think the focus will simply shift to the STD tanks. You think MLT tanks are bad, try an SP invested tank. The solutions What I would like to see, is an overall price hike on tanks in general. Say a fit for a pro tank is a Mil. A MLT fit should be at 400 to 500K So tanks in general will cost you half a mil to a mil to run per game. Given their power, this is totally fair. Add WP for tank damage, make it appealing to run AV against a tank. Next, WP for tank damage needs to be implemented. What this does, is make it very appealing to actually attempt AV against a tank. So one tank rolls up, and over half the team switches to AV, that tank WILL die, AV will get a good chunk for the effort, and tanks will still require multiple people to take them out. Everyone's happier. And of course, tanks need to be FINISHED ALREADY. I've already put out my idea's on tank fixes but for the mean time, what I stated here should happen with the 1.8 release. No buffing of AV, or nerfing of tanks. Things are in a better spot than you think with tank balance, the problem though is the ease at which people can run tanks, which results in the "TANK SPAM" and the cries to nerf tanks. Rather than doing something stupidly drastic ( again ) make these small changes so you can actually focus on balancing the numbers. Fix the actual problems not the skewed misinterpretations of people less familiar with tanks! TL;DR mmmmmmmm..... no. Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 403	Posted - 2014.02.15 23:22:00 - [26] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: steelRatt wrote: Tank vs dropship/assault DS Tank wins (tho a ADS can kill a tank if lucky) Tank vs infantry Tank wins (unless there is a few av in the mix) Tank vs tank Tank wins Dropship/assault vs infantry DS wins (unless there's a rail tank in the redline or a few forge gunners see you swarms not so much of a problem sorry swarm guys ) Are tanks OP for the cost and what they bring to a fight yes they are my proto forge suit cost close to 200K my ADS over 500k. That's more then a sica or a soma. We all no what problems there are in the game coz we all play it ccp no coz we all ***** about it. You have never met Sir Snugglz. LMAO. Snugglz vs tank Snugglz wins Snugglz vs AV infantry Snugglz wins (Don't shoot me with that blue goo... Or I go ham on you) -Luck is just one of my skills Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 1975	Posted - 2014.02.15 23:29:00 - [27] - Quote Well it looks like I didn't get here before the tankers, but hey ho. The PRICE of tanks is not the problem, SPAM is not the problem. If we put this infantry terms, ProtoSuits. Protosuits used to be a lot more expensive, did decrease the amount of Proto pubs? No, not really. There are more than enough people who can now RUN A PROFIT with protosuits that they can be spammed, increasing the price will only serve to widen the gap between the HAV and HAV NOTS. If we made PROTO suits cost 3millon each, the like Nyan, TP, Eon, won't stop. If anything they will make more money. Also 'TANK SPAM' is not really a problem. At most there can 12 tanks at a time. Which is about 37% of the total match population, now if you want you could say limit to 5 VEHICLES per team, which would make very little impact but might make some people feel better. The real problem with Tanks is the tanks themselves, most importantly the power of them. Now for a good example of Vehicle vs Infantry balance, lets look at Titanfall. Now you will notjce just how powerful the players Titan is, tearing through infantry like butter. But also notice how when the player comes across a titan he is capable of taking it down by himself, all it takes is a concentrated effort. This how it should be with DUST, a concentrated effort from ONE man should be enough to kill a tank. But the tank has the option of retreating earlier. Multiple AV is used when you need rid of the tank fast, DEAD or ALIVE. But so long as 1 tank is more powerful or of more use to the team than an infantry player they will be unbalanced. Spkr4thedead: Me > AV This is why tanks are unbalanced Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 179	Posted - 2014.02.15 23:45:00 - [28] - Quote BAD FURRY wrote: mmmmmmmm..... no. I'm sure the OP thanks you for your thoughtful insight. I was a dedicated swarm user for a long time, and I've been saying basically what the OP did since 1.7 dropped. Tank on tank is actually pretty well balanced, and a single tank can still be defeated by AV if the infantry are well equipped and know what they're doing. The problem is the cost: A single decent AV fit costs as much as a militia tank, and you need multiple people shooting to have a chance if the tank driver is in any way competent. Calling in your own tank is a cheaper and more effective option. Tanks should be the best option to counter other tanks, but not the only one. I wanted to simply double the price of HAV hulls (not weapons or modules) as I felt that would increase the price enough to discourage tank spam in pub matches, without making them so pricey as to only be viable in PC (like they were pre-1.7) 400-500k could be a high end price for a well fit militia tank, though I'd say a completely unfit soma/sica only needs to cost 100k - I can still solo those with swarms when I get the drop on them after all. If I had my way, every Sica/Soma fitting would cost 50k more than it does now, 100k more for madrugers and gunnlogis. This would be the same regardless of fitting, as I would only be changing the cost of the hull. I'd love to see WP for vehicle damage on top of this. I'd like swarms to get their range back too, (I was OK with the damage nerf) so they can actually be used against dropships, but that's a matter for another thread.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2565	Posted - 2014.02.16 13:52:00 - [29] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think They are also balanced in skirmish and domination... thought the redline needs to be fixed in dom. True Push the redline and spawns back about 500m will do it like you said Intelligence is OP
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 586	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:48:00 - [30] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: BAD FURRY wrote: mmmmmmmm..... no. I'm sure the OP thanks you for your thoughtful insight. I was a dedicated swarm user for a long time, and I've been saying basically what the OP did since 1.7 dropped. Tank on tank is actually pretty well balanced, and a single tank can still be defeated by AV if the infantry are well equipped and know what they're doing. The problem is the cost: A single decent AV fit costs as much as a militia tank, and you need multiple people shooting to have a chance if the tank driver is in any way competent. Calling in your own tank is a cheaper and more effective option. Tanks should be the best option to counter other tanks, but not the only one. I wanted to simply double the price of HAV hulls (not weapons or modules) as I felt that would increase the price enough to discourage tank spam in pub matches, without making them so pricey as to only be viable in PC (like they were pre-1.7) 400-500k could be a high end price for a well fit militia tank, though I'd say a completely unfit soma/sica only needs to cost 100k - I can still solo those with swarms when I get the drop on them after all. If I had my way, every Sica/Soma fitting would cost 50k more than it does now, 100k more for madrugers and gunnlogis. This would be the same regardless of fitting, as I would only be changing the cost of the hull. I'd love to see WP for vehicle damage on top of this. I'd like swarms to get their range back too, (I was OK with the damage nerf) so they can actually be used against dropships, but that's a matter for another thread. I have used tanks since May. I remember that god awful high price. But then, tanks were incredibly squishy, and one type in particular, was rather broken (gunnlogi). That meant, I needed to make one live at the very least, 3 to 5 matches, just to stay isk balanced. Now though, it's certainly not hard to make one survive 3 - 5 matches. I would say the hardest part is being unable to counter tank spam once one side has spammed them. While I can take any MLT tank one on one, add another railgun or 3 with blasters, and you are going to have a rough time. I can still manage, it's just going to take me a long while. The main imbalance with tanks lay in the sheer number called per game. Right now the details of what really needs to be fixed with tanks is muddied by the number of tanks out, not necessarily the ineffectiveness of AV or the OP ness of tanks. 100k, WAY too cheap. That's only 30k above the current price, while it would reduce spam, it would hardly be noticeable. Right now, tankers are not tankers. There are no tactics, flanking, tracking, situational awareness, ect, for the majority of tankers out there. They just hop in and expect hardeners and damage mods to do all the work. And that's the other thing, the only MLT tanks that are EASY for AV are the Damage modded tanks. If the Sica's out there focused on less gank and more tank, they would dominate the battlefield. Same with Soma's, but a double hardened Sica is arguably stronger than any Soma fit you can come up with. I can only imagine the AV qq from a Sica running double hardener and a blaster. The price needs to better reflect the power. Given the staying power, or I should say potential power, not to mention immune to small arms fire, they need to cost more than a proto heavy forge gun setup, or at least as much as one. But here's the thing, setting a high cost makes you VALUE that item that much more. If you really want to use tanks, then you need to learn how to effectively drive one, but you need something to drive you to it. Right now they are little more than I win buttons, disposable ones at that. Current costs only would have made sense pre 1.7, when MLT were more of a JOKE than anything else. And if you think about it, 500K is roughly 2 -3 matches maybe 4. So let's say you can lose 1 per 3 games. Current prices 70K, let say an average game (if you gain WP) is somewhere around 150k to 200k. So you can lose 2 per 1 game. My suggested price 1 tank per 3 games. I think this is a good way to look at it, as it really shows the spam issue. The idea here, is that you can't lose a tank in every single match, if you want to run one every match. But notice the current prices done up in the same fashion. Current price 2 tanks per 1 game OR 3 to 4 tanks per 1 game This is low balling it. If the tanker does decent with his tank, you are looking at a higher payout as well. I average 250 to 300k a match myself. So in my case, 3 to 4 tanks per 1 match if I ran MLT tanks. But everyone see's the problem right? CURRENTLY YOU CAN RUN UP TO 4 TANKS A MATCH AND STILL MAINTAIN THE ISK TO PAY FOR THEM. For something that is arguably worth MORE than any proto suit out there, the cost sure doesn't reflect. Nuff Said

Loki Style Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:02:00 - [31] - Quote Good points. I agree with all of them. I thought they made tanks cheaper to deal with the proto stomp.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 587	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:03:00 - [32] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: I would feel better if AVs were buffed slightly (not to pre-1.7 specs) but half of the gap between the damage of the pre and post-1.7 AVs should be gone. Essentially 1.8 AVs should be (pre 1.7 damage - post 1.7 damage)/2 + post 1.7 damage. Then AVs would be more viable against tanks, but other than that I agree that increasing the prices of tanks is an excellent idea, especially for militia. Care to mention any solutions to the dropship? Check the link in my signature. I think those suggestions would have an excellent impact on dropships. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 587	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:05:00 - [33] - Quote Loki Style wrote: Good points. I agree with all of them. I thought they made tanks cheaper to deal with the proto stomp. Naw, they had to have been REALLY drunk when they came up with that idea, or high or something. Maybe mental retardation for a day or something. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 14	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:06:00 - [34] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Well it looks like I didn't get here before the tankers, but hey ho. The PRICE of tanks is not the problem, SPAM is not the problem. If we put this infantry terms, ProtoSuits. Protosuits used to be a lot more expensive, did decrease the amount of Proto pubs? No, not really. There are more than enough people who can now RUN A PROFIT with protosuits that they can be spammed, increasing the price will only serve to widen the gap between the HAV and HAV NOTS. If we made PROTO suits cost 3millon each, the like Nyan, TP, Eon, won't stop. If anything they will make more money. Also 'TANK SPAM' is not really a problem. At most there can 12 tanks at a time. Which is about 37% of the total match population, now if you want you could say limit to 5 VEHICLES per team, which would make very little impact but might make some people feel better. The real problem with Tanks is the tanks themselves, most importantly the power of them. Now for a good example of Vehicle vs Infantry balance, lets look at Titanfall. Now you will notjce just how powerful the players Titan is, tearing through infantry like butter. But also notice how when the player comes across a titan he is capable of taking it down by himself, all it takes is a concentrated effort. This how it should be with DUST, a concentrated effort from ONE man should be enough to kill a tank. But the tank has the option of retreating earlier. Multiple AV is used when you need rid of the tank fast, DEAD or ALIVE. But so long as 1 tank is more powerful or of more use to the team than an infantry player they will be unbalanced. From my experience IG: A single infantryman, when properly equipped, is capable of taking down a STD tank with Proto Gun (only saying the equipment I knew the tanks have). I've been on both sides of that equation (with complex mods on my tank) and all it takes is to bring the correct tools to the battle. Some newer tools might be useful, Fused Flux grenades would be awesome...a better aiming mechanism on the comet gun..err plasma cannon. FGs, REs, and AV 'nades are currently in a good place against tanks (although I wish Proxy Mines would stick as well). Swarm launchers requires a small group (usually 3 people) to be effective against shield tanks, but work well in groups of 2 vs armor tanks...meaning that they need a buff again in both lock range(which is hopefully something planned for when they fix the draw distance issue) and sustained Damage (either through increasing damage, or increasing magazine capacity...MLT Swarms need looked at for this especially). It's been my experience, that teams only get rolled by tanks in pups because of a lack of coordination of anyone who goes AV, and a lack of people going AV. Two FGs and 3 swarmers aren't going to take down 6 tanks without Mics...and even with comms, they aren't going to be very effective at it. If you meat tank spam, counter with AV spam of your own, if you're running in a squad with comms, leave the AI to the blueberries, and spawn in with your AV. And no I don't use proto AV, but have taken down plenty of tanks on foot, or behind my tank...it gets kind of annoying I have to go AV or Tank Destroyer (what I've been calling damage modded MLT Rail Tanks), because I like to play support logi or DS pilot...
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 587	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:17:00 - [35] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Well it looks like I didn't get here before the tankers, but hey ho. The PRICE of tanks is not the problem, SPAM is not the problem. If we put this infantry terms, ProtoSuits. Protosuits used to be a lot more expensive, did decrease the amount of Proto pubs? No, not really. There are more than enough people who can now RUN A PROFIT with protosuits that they can be spammed, increasing the price will only serve to widen the gap between the HAV and HAV NOTS. If we made PROTO suits cost 3millon each, the like Nyan, TP, Eon, won't stop. If anything they will make more money. Also 'TANK SPAM' is not really a problem. At most there can 12 tanks at a time. Which is about 37% of the total match population, now if you want you could say limit to 5 VEHICLES per team, which would make very little impact but might make some people feel better. The real problem with Tanks is the tanks themselves, most importantly the power of them. Now for a good example of Vehicle vs Infantry balance, lets look at Titanfall. Now you will notjce just how powerful the players Titan is, tearing through infantry like butter. But also notice how when the player comes across a titan he is capable of taking it down by himself, all it takes is a concentrated effort. This how it should be with DUST, a concentrated effort from ONE man should be enough to kill a tank. But the tank has the option of retreating earlier. Multiple AV is used when you need rid of the tank fast, DEAD or ALIVE. But so long as 1 tank is more powerful or of more use to the team than an infantry player they will be unbalanced. From my experience IG: A single infantryman, when properly equipped, is capable of taking down a STD tank with Proto Gun (only saying the equipment I knew the tanks have). I've been on both sides of that equation (with complex mods on my tank) and all it takes is to bring the correct tools to the battle. Some newer tools might be useful, Fused Flux grenades would be awesome...a better aiming mechanism on the comet gun..err plasma cannon. FGs, REs, and AV 'nades are currently in a good place against tanks (although I wish Proxy Mines would stick as well). Swarm launchers requires a small group (usually 3 people) to be effective against shield tanks, but work well in groups of 2 vs armor tanks...meaning that they need a buff again in both lock range(which is hopefully something planned for when they fix the draw distance issue) and sustained Damage (either through increasing damage, or increasing magazine capacity...MLT Swarms need looked at for this especially). It's been my experience, that teams only get rolled by tanks in pups because of a lack of coordination of anyone who goes AV, and a lack of people going AV. Two FGs and 3 swarmers aren't going to take down 6 tanks without Mics...and even with comms, they aren't going to be very effective at it. If you meat tank spam, counter with AV spam of your own, if you're running in a squad with comms, leave the AI to the blueberries, and spawn in with your AV. And no I don't use proto AV, but have taken down plenty of tanks on foot, or behind my tank...it gets kind of annoying I have to go AV or Tank Destroyer (what I've been calling damage modded MLT Rail Tanks), because I like to play support logi or DS pilot... I don't think you are considering the AI infantry running around countering AV infantry attempts, or the tanks doing the same. I look at it like this 1 tank = 2 infantry 1 tank (hardeners active) = 3 to 4 infantry 6 tanks would equal 12 infantry + 10 actual infantry for a combined team strength of 22 As opposed to the 16. There are problems with AV but I think we need to clear away the noise of the sheer number of tanks first. I know AV wants new toys, but that won't be happening in a timely fashion. And aside from that, tanks are not finished. Tanks are very simple and straightforward with NO VARIETY. Before Infantry get's toys, tanks need to be fully addressed and finished. Read 1.7 patch notes, as CCP stated in them that tanks are unfinished in their current state. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 14	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:25:00 - [36] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: I don't think you are considering the AI infantry running around countering AV infantry attempts, or the tanks doing the same. I look at it like this 1 tank = 2 infantry 1 tank (hardeners active) = 3 to 4 infantry 6 tanks would equal 12 infantry + 10 actual infantry for a combined team strength of 22 As opposed to the 16. There are problems with AV but I think we need to clear away the noise of the sheer number of tanks first. I know AV wants new toys, but that won't be happening in a timely fashion. And aside from that, tanks are not finished. Tanks are very simple and straightforward with NO VARIETY. Before Infantry get's toys, tanks need to be fully addressed and finished. Read 1.7 patch notes, as CCP stated in them that tanks are unfinished in their current state. I don't agree completely with your equivalencies there, but I understand what you are saying. Comes down to a lack of teamwork on one team...regardless of AV toys or number of vehicles...Even one tank, when coordinated with a group of infantry is an extremely powerful force...and currently one AVer when properly covered, is a force a tank fears.
Lazy Scumbag Intara Direct Action Caldari State 136	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:37:00 - [37] - Quote steelRatt wrote: One way to let the tanks stay as they are that would make DS pilots happy and I think the ground troops to is make the tiny maps we have biggerand remove redline. If the maps bigger ground troops get room to move and DS pilots can find places to hide tanks could stay as is and we would have to worries about 7 tanks on top of you. Then you could get av hunting party's just a thought I'm all for ditching the redline, but having larger maps (like all the newer ones) gives the tanks far too much room to move around which takes more power from AV. If a tank can cut and run in any direction, then even coordinated attacks become unpredictable. On wide open maps, tanks are rolling death machines, since cover seems to be randomly generated instead of laid out with a purpose.
tween tween UrAnus Air Service 1	Posted - 2014.03.14 13:13:00 - [38] - Quote Though I can see the logic in some of your points, it seems like you're only baseing your assumptions of the tank price from playing ambush. Rather than increase the price, why not just reduce the number of vehicles that can be called in an Ambush match. From my own AV point of view, my biggest problems(when i played ambush) were the amount of tanks present in the games coupled with infantry. As I mostly play solo because I do not have any friends, I typically end up playing against whole corp squads, who bring in tanks and infantry. If have corp squads on my team that are decent, I can easily take out 2-3 tanks with AV nades, forge or swarms. Typically I used to end up with **** teams, because those in CCP who design the game are doing the worst job in matchmaking, eventough they are educated in game developing and work as game developers. By this I mean, I end up playing against two full corp squads, while I have none on my team. So I have my hands full in taking on infantry and tanks, and I mostly fail when it comes to that. Now you may ask, what was the point in that arguement, but I simply made an ambush point of view like you did, tank prices are fine, you can take them on, as long as you're not in a ** team. Nowadays I play domination with my tanks, which are quite often militia. As the dear Red Star people pointed out, tanks are fine balanced in those, especially since the opposite team usually gets out tanks aswell. What has this to do with the pricing of tanks? Well, on average I might loose 100-150k on tanks(remember I'm alone with no friends and sometimes I tend to bring out expensive **) and can end up playing against whole corp squads. So even if I on average earn between 200-300, I do not earn that much net profit in domination. So from your ambush conclusions I will draw new pricing conclusions from domination.
Jake Diesel BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 116	Posted - 2014.03.14 14:43:00 - [39] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think OMFG TAKA what is wrong with you. Did you EVEN READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. I clearly stated that nerfing tanks or buffing AV isn't the answer. Please READ WHAT IS SAID before responding. Generally i assume that you are crying about tanks, most tanks threads are QQ and wanting a nerf but the point still stands anyway We dont have adv tanks let alone proto so cost wise 750k for std because proto tanks will be 2mil+ if we ever get them I assume you mean to say that your advanced and proto tanks are supposed to be more powerful than your standard tanks now? Because it's worth 2mil? In 1.6, your "standard" tank could withstand 7+ hits from a proto assault forge and rep with 30%+ armor remaining. In 1.7, your "standard" tank can stack dual hardeners to withstand any hits from a proto assault forge and activate its turbo boost to high tail it on outta there. So judging from these two versions of your "standard" tank, I would assume your advanced and proto version. Would be more powerful? Lol. If CCP was ignorant, they would satisfy your request for these variants without nerfing your standard tank. But if they were smart, which is highly questionable at this point, they would make your "standard" tank as your proto variant, keeping costs down, and then make lesser variants as your advanced and standard tanks. I would suspect at the very least that the proto variant will be slightly buffed. But not to what most tankers would dream about.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 477	Posted - 2014.03.14 14:57:00 - [40] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think If what you say is true, and tanks are balanced towards Team matches(not pub matches) then tanks should be banned for - or at the very least limited in quantity per team per match - for pub matches. Your argument works both ways.

Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 224	Posted - 2014.03.14 15:00:00 - [41] - Quote buzzzzzzz killllllllll wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lolambush - Cant nerf vehicles because of 1 mode Tanks are balanced in PC Generally anything can be OP in pubs If tanks are in a much better place for a competitve mode then what happens when you nerf tanks for pub games? are they still balanced for the competitive gamemode? We dont have proto hulls, only mods and turrets, we need adv/proto hulls WP for dmg is getting added in 1.8 i think taka, they are getting nerfed no matter what, u cant save ur precious win machines So, because it doesn't work for you, it's bad. Yes, the amount of tanks in pub matches need fixing, yes, they need a price increase, but no, the tanks power should not be nerfed. If you want to defend an argument, don't start out bashing the person countering your argument. Sees prototompers... Sees blueberries start to snipe... Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...
Temias Mercurial ANGEL FLEET 10	Posted - 2014.03.14 15:59:00 - [42] - Quote I believe the main issue is simply militia tanks being way to powerful, along with blasters. To be killed by a railgun or missile (as infantry) requires aim, unlike blasters. I'd prefer CCP nerf militia tanks to point where they're crap, but still manageable, along with rails (as a pilot, screw rail turrets) and blasters. Blasters are just too easy and unsatisfying when running around in a tank, in my opinion, but it's always fun to kill a rail/missile tank with them, just to to prove how bad they are.
Charlotte O'Dell Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors 2141	Posted - 2014.03.14 16:03:00 - [43] - Quote Tanks are horrible no matter how you look at it except for missile turrets Rails work CQC better than blasters vs tanks Blasters farm infantry; 20 kills is weak Av can't even kill a mlt tank at proto with damage mods if hardeners are off Only the best tanks are balanced for ISK...hell, an HC-130 Gunlogi with all bpo or militia modules and turrets costs 10,000 ISK. I swear to god. I spam it like it's cool. Super PC fits are 450,000, roughly and those are balanced because you won't make that back in a battle. Every tank fit should cost more than you make in a match. It should be damn near impossible for a sicas to survive an entire bbattle Tanks are balanced in PC because they spend all their time killing eachother. In pubs, it is not a guarantee that you'll have a 4 v 4 tank battle. Just the same as if one side is a proto stomp squad and the other is noob mode. The quickest fix is a price increase because most people cannot afford to lose tank after tank in pubs. It'll negate all but the richest tryhards tank spamming...luckily most real tankers are gone. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Charlotte O'Dell Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors 2141	Posted - 2014.03.14 16:03:00 - [44] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I believe the main issue is simply militia tanks being way to powerful, along with blasters. To be killed by a railgun or missile (as infantry) requires aim, unlike blasters. I'd prefer CCP nerf militia tanks to point where they're crap, but still manageable, along with rails (as a pilot, screw rail turrets) and blasters. Blasters are just too easy and unsatisfying when running around in a tank, in my opinion, but it's always fun to kill a rail/missile tank with them, just to to prove how bad they are. I don't even see mlt tanks anymore. Its all std tanks with proto turrets now. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Temias Mercurial ANGEL FLEET 10	Posted - 2014.03.14 16:06:00 - [45] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I believe the main issue is simply militia tanks being way to powerful, along with blasters. To be killed by a railgun or missile (as infantry) requires aim, unlike blasters. I'd prefer CCP nerf militia tanks to point where they're crap, but still manageable, along with rails (as a pilot, screw rail turrets) and blasters. Blasters are just too easy and unsatisfying when running around in a tank, in my opinion, but it's always fun to kill a rail/missile tank with them, just to to prove how bad they are. I don't even see mlt tanks anymore. Its all std tanks with proto turrets now. I still see them just as much as standard. What bugs me is when I see a soma/sica with std or adv turret... at least have the dignity to use a madrugar/gunnlogi. As a pilot, I want rails to be nerfed... hard.


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