One word: range. I don't remember off the top of my head and can't be bothered to look it up, but there's a huge optimal range gap between STD and PRO weapons, and that matters.
Also, for dropsuits: slots, bro. More slots = more health, more damage, more speed.

And everything should be on easymode like that helps them to feel like they have accomplished something . The meaning of hard work died after World War 2.

I know I'm about to get a lot of hatred for this but i believe prototype gear should be better, we all push to get prototype gear just to find out when we get it that it's so closely equal to advanced gear that it's almost not worth it entirely with examples to when you look at the attributes fot combat rifles or at least it pops up this way on my account but advanced combat rifles have more power than prototype combat rifles and the biggest damage gap between a basic and prototype weapon goes to the scrambler rifles with a difference of a prototype viziam doing only 7 more damage than the basic version and onky doing 4 more damage than the advanced crw, all other weapon ddamage gaps are much smaller and then you look at dropsuits and you're absolutely pissed when you notice all prototype suits have the same base armor and shields as their basic versions, the only thing they do right are modules and equipment but it's already confirmed that they'll nerf equipment in the next patch and probably they'll nerf module in the future too making prototype less desirable

Your bitter rants are not constructive, nor are your gross generalizations about the entirety of Dust's player base. Please, stop.

You do realise when you buy Tech II stuff in EVE you are only paying for slight percentage increases over regular content.....and its those slight bonuses that add up and make your ships more powerful.

Your bitter rants are not constructive, nor are your gross generalizations about the entirety of Dust's player base. Please, stop.

If your taking it personally then i'm talking about you. Why even address this if it not you that's being spoken about .. and yes the truth hurts . There's nothing bitter about it if it not YOU that is spoken about you would take it with a grain of salt . Good day.

I'm not asking for things to get OP ,just fair reward for the effort it takes, if advanced is only slightly better than basic and prototype only slightly more better than advanced then they should drop the prices of higher level dropsuits or improve them, simple as that

It IS a fair reward. This is a FPS- one bullet's worth of health is incredibly valuable, as is 3% damage. I can't count the number of times I've survived a fight with less than 20 health left. If I had been using a lower tier of gear, or my opponent had a higher tier weapon, or one bullet more health, I would have lost.

I use lower tier gear to an extreme amount because I find most higher tier gear is beatable with jusk my residual upgrades from skills and my skill at gaming, rarely does a prototype weapon make the difference and it shouldn't be that easy

But that's from basic to advanced, the gap from advanced to proto is much smaller and is getting smaller with each update and even back when proto was completely OP I agreed with it because it just takes so damn long to become proto

It may be slightly smaller, but it's still more than enough to make a clear difference when playing with it. Let's compare my ADV slayer logi fit vs my LP PRO one:

ADV min logi:
Kalaakiota RR
M1 Locus
A-45 Quantum scanner
Allotek (r) nanohive
Compact nanohive
Complex light damage modifier
Enhanced armor plate
Basic armor plate
Basic armor plate

PRO min logi:
Kalaakiota RR
M1 Locus
A-45 Quantum scanner
Wiyrkomi Triage nanohive
K17/D (r) nanohive
Compact nanohive
Complex light damage modifier
Complex light damage modifier
Basic shield extender
Basic shield extender
Enhanced armor plate
Basic armor plate
Basic armor plate
Basic armor plate

ADV stats:
103 shield, 469 armor, for a total of 572 EHP
66.55 damage/shot

PRO stats:
150 shield, 559 armor, for a total of 709 EHP
~72 damage/shot
Plus more, and more powerful, repair hives

Differences: 137 EHP and ~9% damage, plus better equipment. Again, not huge, but against an equally skilled player in ADV gear, I'm going to win definitively.

True but is right to make the two tiers that close? Your set up is a difference of one to two bullets of one beating the other out by attrition, I'm sayin instead of a proto outsurviving an adv suit by one or two bullets it should be more like five or six well three or four in this case with current kallaakiota RRs

Yes, it IS right to make the two tiers that close, because in pretty much every non-PC match, there's going to be all three levels of suits and weapons on the field. If the ADV-PRO gap was widened as you suggest, it would be nearly impossible to lose to a STD suit in PRO gear, and that's really bad for overall gameplay. Honestly, that's already the pretty much the case- a bricked protosuit slices through MLT suits like a hot knife through butter. There's a reason so many players can maintain 5+ K/Ds, and it's not because they're all 5x better than their opponents (though some surely are), it's that they're moderately more skilled AND have a major numerical advantage over the majority of the player base. This is a huge part of why Dust is having trouble retaining new players.

The fact that someone has been playing Dust for a long time shouldn't translate into nearly insurmountable numerical advantages. Skill should always be more important than gear, and gear can already compensate for moderate differences in skill.

No, there needs to be a balance between gear versus skill otherwise there's no point to proto gear and i know what about all the proto stompers well that takes lots of isk, I run proto suits in most my matches because i may only die once or twice a match even when in adv gear but i strip my suits down to make them cost effective, at their current cost it's not right to keep lowering the tier gap when most tanks don't cost the same as my suit, you say it's fair but just two deaths in a true proto loadout ( proto gun and suit and a few complex mods ) and the user loses money on a pub match, the price doesn't match the reward

As it stands, the pro to gear does provide more advantage to the advanced gear already. Even if the difference from ADV to PRO was a 2% performance buff it would be well worth any investment in a more competitive setting (PC matches). There is simply too much at stake in a 'serious' competition to say 'too much money'.

My personal take on the matter: Tiericide.

That's not really making a stand on the topic being discussed

High ISK cost is not a valid balancing factor. It works for new players starting from scratch, but there are vets and PC corps sitting on billions- they couldn't care less if they lose 1000s of proto suits, other than the K/D drop.

Tank cost and effectiveness is a different matter entirely, let's not bring that in to the conversation.

I guess we just simply disagree- in my opinion, the dropsuit skill vs gear balance is just about right. If anything, I think gear provides too large of an advantage.

The more you argue, the more it seems to me that you simply want your prototype gear to be a win-button against everyone who isn't using it.

Tangent: Whoah, when did real Godin reappear?! Does this mean no more "message from Godin" posts?!

I was talking about personal use, there are corps that have endless isk but the average dust player doesn't, the problem with proto gear debates is it is a matter of haves and have nots, everyone wants proto gear but no one wants to get killed by it and no i don't want a win button, i'd just like it to be plausible to use in pub, CCP could easily drop the price on everything to make it fair or do the opposite and overhaul proto suits because at their cost it seems CCP thinks anyone in a prototype suit is near impossible to kill and it's definitely not true

And everything should be on easymode like that helps them to feel like they have accomplished something . The meaning of hard work died after World War 2.

STD Minmatar assault: Basic CR, Toxin SMG, RE, Locus grenade, 3 complex shield extenders, 1 basic armor plate. EHP ~550: Cost ~16000 ISK
Proto Minmatar assault: Boundless CR, Toxin SMG, RE, M1 grenade, 4 complex shield extenders, 1 complex damage mod, 1 adv armor plate, 1 adv CPU upgrade. EHP ~830: Cost ~ I think just over 100k, but that's because I use the republic LP version to help lower cost, otherwise it would be higher.

Advantage/Disadvantage comparison assuming suits have maxed out core skills:

Advantage of the STD vs PRO:
1. I'm ALMOST as effective as the proto suit:
2. TTK is far too low to really make a difference in normal pubs.
3. It costs SO MUCH LESS.
3. Going against PRO suits while running STD forces you to start re-assessing your plan of attack if you want to take them down, making you a better player in general, which helps when using higher tier suits/weapons. (To an extent, hopefully it will require a more tactical approach in 1.8)

Disadvantages of the STD vs PRO:
1.Less CPU and PG requires you to actually think about how you are going to use the suit, and build specifically to that role.
2. Less EHP (with current TTK, it really only means a difference of 0.5sec in most cases, but is more detrimental in the fact that you don't have the EHP buffer against instant, high alpha damage weapons such as grenades, MD, SCR, and snipers)

Advantages of the PRO vs STD:
1. Higher CPU, PG, and slot layout allowing you to fit it whatever way you want (At current TTK its all about tank and gank, sadly)
2. Higher EHP (Giving you that buffer for instant high alpha damage weapons)
3. Longer optimal range on your weapon. (Marginal, but gives the edge in fights that really matter. Example: PC)
4. Higher damage on your weapon. (Marginal, but gives the edge in fights that really matter. Example: PC)

Disadvantages of PRO vs STD:
1. Cost (Its never been intended to be run as a primary loadout (If anything, I think that they should cost a little bit more than they currently do, so that they really mean that you are committed to the win VS making money) and should be deployed as such, only then should they have a higher advantage over the other suits, and even still only maybe 15-20%))
2. Doesn't give a HUGE advantage vs STD suits (~10% for weapons, and more fitting options for suits)



Just my thoughts.



Minmatar Assault, Logi, and Scout before 1.8, before it was cool.
In rust we trust.

I agree on almost all of this except i see that closeness as a reason to improve prototype gear, if it's a wanting to win over gainingisk than it should have the capability to match said claim

It already does have the capability to match said claim. You wouldn't lose ISK running proto if you never lost a gunfight, now would you? The point is that proto allows you to win more fights in a row before going down... it already does that.

I know I'm about to get a lot of hatred for this but i believe prototype gear should be better, we all push to get prototype gear just to find out when we get it that it's so closely equal to advanced gear that it's almost not worth it entirely with examples to when you look at the attributes fot combat rifles or at least it pops up this way on my account but advanced combat rifles have more power than prototype combat rifles and the biggest damage gap between a basic and prototype weapon goes to the scrambler rifles with a difference of a prototype viziam doing only 7 more damage than the basic version and onky doing 4 more damage than the advanced crw, all other weapon ddamage gaps are much smaller and then you look at dropsuits and you're absolutely pissed when you notice all prototype suits have the same base armor and shields as their basic versions, the only thing they do right are modules and equipment but it's already confirmed that they'll nerf equipment in the next patch and probably they'll nerf module in the future too making prototype less desirable

First things first. Fix that wall of text. My eyes hurt.

Second: Proto gear SHOULD be better. Nobody I know argues against that.

The problem right now is the fact that there is no game mode where you can AVOID proto. Newberries get thrown into the meat grinder and get chewed up and spit out.

They need to do one of two things:

1.) Tiericide. Best answer by far. Proto suits become the basic versions. All other suits are simply specialized versions. Not better all around, but better in some areas, and worse in others.

2.) Restrict Basic, Advanced, and Proto gear in pubs. In short, you have modes where Basic is the highest you can use, Adv is the highest, and then "Low Sec" where anything goes. This will help player retention, and create areas where you can play against people at the same fitting level as you. (although you will still see some people going into basic with tricked out Core skill suits. That can't be helped. This is why Tiericide is the better option)

First things first. Fix that wall of text. My eyes hurt.

Second: Proto gear SHOULD be better. Nobody I know argues against that.

The problem right now is the fact that there is no game mode where you can AVOID proto. Newberries get thrown into the meat grinder and get chewed up and spit out.

They need to do one of two things:

1.) Tiericide. Best answer by far. Proto suits become the basic versions. All other suits are simply specialized versions. Not better all around, but better in some areas, and worse in others.

2.) Restrict Basic, Advanced, and Proto gear in pubs. In short, you have modes where Basic is the highest you can use, Adv is the highest, and then "Low Sec" where anything goes. This will help player retention, and create areas where you can play against people at the same fitting level as you. (although you will still see some people going into basic with tricked out Core skill suits. That can't be helped. This is why Tiericide is the better option)

I agree on almost all of this except i see that closeness as a reason to improve prototype gear, if it's a wanting to win over gainingisk than it should have the capability to match said claim

I know I'm about to get a lot of hatred for this but i believe prototype gear should be better, we all push to get prototype gear just to find out when we get it that it's so closely equal to advanced gear that it's almost not worth it entirely with examples to when you look at the attributes fot combat rifles or at least it pops up this way on my account but advanced combat rifles have more power than prototype combat rifles and the biggest damage gap between a basic and prototype weapon goes to the scrambler rifles with a difference of a prototype viziam doing only 7 more damage than the basic version and onky doing 4 more damage than the advanced crw, all other weapon ddamage gaps are much smaller and then you look at dropsuits and you're absolutely pissed when you notice all prototype suits have the same base armor and shields as their basic versions, the only thing they do right are modules and equipment but it's already confirmed that they'll nerf equipment in the next patch and probably they'll nerf module in the future too making prototype less desirable