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Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
526
   |
Posted - 2014.02.13 02:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
One word: range. I don't remember off the top of my head and can't be bothered to look it up, but there's a huge optimal range gap between STD and PRO weapons, and that matters.
Also, for dropsuits: slots, bro. More slots = more health, more damage, more speed. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
527
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 03:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:And everything should be on easymode like that helps them to feel like they have accomplished something . The meaning of hard work died after World War 2.
Your bitter rants are not constructive, nor are your gross generalizations about the entirety of Dust's player base. Please, stop. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
530
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 04:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:True Adamance wrote:killertojo42 wrote:I know I'm about to get a lot of hatred for this but i believe prototype gear should be better, we all push to get prototype gear just to find out when we get it that it's so closely equal to advanced gear that it's almost not worth it entirely with examples to when you look at the attributes fot combat rifles or at least it pops up this way on my account but advanced combat rifles have more power than prototype combat rifles and the biggest damage gap between a basic and prototype weapon goes to the scrambler rifles with a difference of a prototype viziam doing only 7 more damage than the basic version and onky doing 4 more damage than the advanced crw, all other weapon ddamage gaps are much smaller and then you look at dropsuits and you're absolutely pissed when you notice all prototype suits have the same base armor and shields as their basic versions, the only thing they do right are modules and equipment but it's already confirmed that they'll nerf equipment in the next patch and probably they'll nerf module in the future too making prototype less desirable You do realise when you buy Tech II stuff in EVE you are only paying for slight percentage increases over regular content.....and its those slight bonuses that add up and make your ships more powerful. I'm not asking for things to get OP ,just fair reward for the effort it takes, if advanced is only slightly better than basic and prototype only slightly more better than advanced then they should drop the prices of higher level dropsuits or improve them, simple as that
It IS a fair reward. This is a FPS- one bullet's worth of health is incredibly valuable, as is 3% damage. I can't count the number of times I've survived a fight with less than 20 health left. If I had been using a lower tier of gear, or my opponent had a higher tier weapon, or one bullet more health, I would have lost. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
530
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 05:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:Awry Barux wrote:killertojo42 wrote:True Adamance wrote:killertojo42 wrote:I know I'm about to get a lot of hatred for this but i believe prototype gear should be better, we all push to get prototype gear just to find out when we get it that it's so closely equal to advanced gear that it's almost not worth it entirely with examples to when you look at the attributes fot combat rifles or at least it pops up this way on my account but advanced combat rifles have more power than prototype combat rifles and the biggest damage gap between a basic and prototype weapon goes to the scrambler rifles with a difference of a prototype viziam doing only 7 more damage than the basic version and onky doing 4 more damage than the advanced crw, all other weapon ddamage gaps are much smaller and then you look at dropsuits and you're absolutely pissed when you notice all prototype suits have the same base armor and shields as their basic versions, the only thing they do right are modules and equipment but it's already confirmed that they'll nerf equipment in the next patch and probably they'll nerf module in the future too making prototype less desirable You do realise when you buy Tech II stuff in EVE you are only paying for slight percentage increases over regular content.....and its those slight bonuses that add up and make your ships more powerful. I'm not asking for things to get OP ,just fair reward for the effort it takes, if advanced is only slightly better than basic and prototype only slightly more better than advanced then they should drop the prices of higher level dropsuits or improve them, simple as that It IS a fair reward. This is a FPS- one bullet's worth of health is incredibly valuable, as is 3% damage. I can't count the number of times I've survived a fight with less than 20 health left. If I had been using a lower tier of gear, or my opponent had a higher tier weapon, or one bullet more health, I would have lost. I use lower tier gear to an extreme amount because I find most higher tier gear is beatable with jusk my residual upgrades from skills and my skill at gaming, rarely does a prototype weapon make the difference and it shouldn't be that easy
I'm not saying high tier gear isn't beatable with low tier gear, I do that on a regular basis- I don't even have proto gear. This is a FPS, and that's how it should be- if high tier gear guaranteed a win, it would absolutely ruin the game. However, I notice significant improvements to my performance in an advanced suit versus standard gear. The extra ~80 EHP from another low slot, combined with an additional 10% damage boost from being able to fit a complex damage mod, plus another 10% from proto weapon, as well as a 10m larger optimal range, lets me win fights that I wouldn't otherwise. If a ~15% HP boost, 21% damage boost, and 10m larger optimal range doesn't seem like enough of an improvement, well, I don't really know what to tell you. I can miss 20% of my shots against someone with perfect accuracy but standard gear and win. While that may rarely be needed for 1v1s, it's often the difference between winning a 2v1 and only taking one down with you.
I'm strongly against increasing the gaps between tiers. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
530
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 05:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:But that's from basic to advanced, the gap from advanced to proto is much smaller and is getting smaller with each update and even back when proto was completely OP I agreed with it because it just takes so damn long to become proto
It may be slightly smaller, but it's still more than enough to make a clear difference when playing with it. Let's compare my ADV slayer logi fit vs my LP PRO one:
ADV min logi:
Kalaakiota RR
M1 Locus
A-45 Quantum scanner
Allotek (r) nanohive
Compact nanohive
Complex light damage modifier
Enhanced armor plate
Basic armor plate
Basic armor plate
PRO min logi:
Kalaakiota RR
M1 Locus
A-45 Quantum scanner
Wiyrkomi Triage nanohive
K17/D (r) nanohive
Compact nanohive
Complex light damage modifier
Complex light damage modifier
Basic shield extender
Basic shield extender
Enhanced armor plate
Basic armor plate
Basic armor plate
Basic armor plate
ADV stats:
103 shield, 469 armor, for a total of 572 EHP
66.55 damage/shot
PRO stats:
150 shield, 559 armor, for a total of 709 EHP
~72 damage/shot
Plus more powerful repair hives
Differences: 137 EHP and ~9% damage, plus better equipment. Again, not huge, but against an equally skilled player in ADV gear, I'm going to win definitively. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
531
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 06:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:
True but is right to make the two tiers that close? Your set up is a difference of one to two bullets of one beating the other out by attrition, I'm sayin instead of a proto outsurviving an adv suit by one or two bullets it should be more like five or six well three or four in this case with current kallaakiota RRs
Yes, it IS right to make the two tiers that close, because in pretty much every non-PC match, there's going to be all three levels of suits and weapons on the field. If the ADV-PRO gap was widened as you suggest, it would be nearly impossible to lose to a STD suit in PRO gear, and that's really bad for overall gameplay. Honestly, that's already the pretty much the case- a bricked protosuit slices through MLT suits like a hot knife through butter. There's a reason so many players can maintain 5+ K/Ds, and it's not because they're all 5x better than their opponents (though some surely are), it's that they're moderately more skilled AND have a major numerical advantage over the majority of the player base. This is a huge part of why Dust is having trouble retaining new players.
The fact that someone has been playing Dust for a long time shouldn't translate into nearly insurmountable numerical advantages. Skill should always be more important than gear, and gear can already compensate for moderate differences in skill. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
532
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 07:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:Awry Barux wrote:killertojo42 wrote:
True but is right to make the two tiers that close? Your set up is a difference of one to two bullets of one beating the other out by attrition, I'm sayin instead of a proto outsurviving an adv suit by one or two bullets it should be more like five or six well three or four in this case with current kallaakiota RRs
Yes, it IS right to make the two tiers that close, because in pretty much every non-PC match, there's going to be all three levels of suits and weapons on the field. If the ADV-PRO gap was widened as you suggest, it would be nearly impossible to lose to a STD suit in PRO gear, and that's really bad for overall gameplay. Honestly, that's already the pretty much the case- a bricked protosuit slices through MLT suits like a hot knife through butter. There's a reason so many players can maintain 5+ K/Ds, and it's not because they're all 5x better than their opponents (though some surely are), it's that they're moderately more skilled AND have a major numerical advantage over the majority of the player base. This is a huge part of why Dust is having trouble retaining new players. The fact that someone has been playing Dust for a long time shouldn't translate into nearly insurmountable numerical advantages. Skill should always be more important than gear, and gear can already compensate for moderate differences in skill. No, there needs to be a balance between gear versus skill otherwise there's no point to proto gear and i know what about all the proto stompers well that takes lots of isk, I run proto suits in most my matches because i may only die once or twice a match even when in adv gear but i strip my suits down to make them cost effective, at their current cost it's not right to keep lowering the tier gap when most tanks don't cost the same as my suit, you say it's fair but just two deaths in a true proto loadout ( proto gun and suit and a few complex mods ) and the user loses money on a pub match, the price doesn't match the reward
High ISK cost is not a valid balancing factor. It works for new players starting from scratch, but there are vets and PC corps sitting on billions- they couldn't care less if they lose 1000s of proto suits, other than the K/D drop.
Tank cost and effectiveness is a different matter entirely, let's not bring that in to the conversation.
I guess we just simply disagree- in my opinion, the dropsuit skill vs gear balance is just about right. If anything, I think gear provides too large of an advantage.
The more you argue, the more it seems to me that you simply want your prototype gear to be a win-button against everyone who isn't using it.
Tangent: Whoah, when did real Godin reappear?! Does this mean no more "message from Godin" posts?! |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
532
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 07:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:As it stands, the pro to gear does provide more advantage to the advanced gear already. Even if the difference from ADV to PRO was a 2% performance buff it would be well worth any investment in a more competitive setting (PC matches). There is simply too much at stake in a 'serious' competition to say 'too much money'.
My personal take on the matter: Tiericide.
I too would love some tiercide action, but as long as you see players in 'Neo' suits and AUR weapons on the kill feed, it's never going to happen. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
533
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 07:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:Awry Barux wrote:killertojo42 wrote:Awry Barux wrote:killertojo42 wrote:
True but is right to make the two tiers that close? Your set up is a difference of one to two bullets of one beating the other out by attrition, I'm sayin instead of a proto outsurviving an adv suit by one or two bullets it should be more like five or six well three or four in this case with current kallaakiota RRs
Yes, it IS right to make the two tiers that close, because in pretty much every non-PC match, there's going to be all three levels of suits and weapons on the field. If the ADV-PRO gap was widened as you suggest, it would be nearly impossible to lose to a STD suit in PRO gear, and that's really bad for overall gameplay. Honestly, that's already the pretty much the case- a bricked protosuit slices through MLT suits like a hot knife through butter. There's a reason so many players can maintain 5+ K/Ds, and it's not because they're all 5x better than their opponents (though some surely are), it's that they're moderately more skilled AND have a major numerical advantage over the majority of the player base. This is a huge part of why Dust is having trouble retaining new players. The fact that someone has been playing Dust for a long time shouldn't translate into nearly insurmountable numerical advantages. Skill should always be more important than gear, and gear can already compensate for moderate differences in skill. No, there needs to be a balance between gear versus skill otherwise there's no point to proto gear and i know what about all the proto stompers well that takes lots of isk, I run proto suits in most my matches because i may only die once or twice a match even when in adv gear but i strip my suits down to make them cost effective, at their current cost it's not right to keep lowering the tier gap when most tanks don't cost the same as my suit, you say it's fair but just two deaths in a true proto loadout ( proto gun and suit and a few complex mods ) and the user loses money on a pub match, the price doesn't match the reward High ISK cost is not a valid balancing factor. It works for new players starting from scratch, but there are vets and PC corps sitting on billions- they couldn't care less if they lose 1000s of proto suits, other than the K/D drop. Tank cost and effectiveness is a different matter entirely, let's not bring that in to the conversation. I guess we just simply disagree- in my opinion, the dropsuit skill vs gear balance is just about right. If anything, I think gear provides too large of an advantage. The more you argue, the more it seems to me that you simply want your prototype gear to be a win-button against everyone who isn't using it. Tangent: Whoah, when did real Godin reappear?! Does this mean no more "message from Godin" posts?! I was talking about personal use, there are corps that have endless isk but the average dust player doesn't, the problem with proto gear debates is it is a matter of haves and have nots, everyone wants proto gear but no one wants to get killed by it and no i don't want a win button, i'd just like it to be plausible to use in pub, CCP could easily drop the price on everything to make it fair or do the opposite and overhaul proto suits because at their cost it seems CCP thinks anyone in a prototype suit is near impossible to kill and it's definitely not true
That's the whole point of proto gear, though- it's supposed to be what you pull out on occasions when you've decided winning is more important than enlarging your wallet. It's very plausible to use it in a pub for a casual player, especially with the LP store, just not all the time, and that's by design. |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
544
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 23:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
killertojo42 wrote:
I agree on almost all of this except i see that closeness as a reason to improve prototype gear, if it's a wanting to win over gainingisk than it should have the capability to match said claim
It already does have the capability to match said claim. You wouldn't lose ISK running proto if you never lost a gunfight, now would you? The point is that proto allows you to win more fights in a row before going down... it already does that. |
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Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure
Zero-Day
552
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 02:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:killertojo42 wrote:I know I'm about to get a lot of hatred for this but i believe prototype gear should be better, we all push to get prototype gear just to find out when we get it that it's so closely equal to advanced gear that it's almost not worth it entirely with examples to when you look at the attributes fot combat rifles or at least it pops up this way on my account but advanced combat rifles have more power than prototype combat rifles and the biggest damage gap between a basic and prototype weapon goes to the scrambler rifles with a difference of a prototype viziam doing only 7 more damage than the basic version and onky doing 4 more damage than the advanced crw, all other weapon ddamage gaps are much smaller and then you look at dropsuits and you're absolutely pissed when you notice all prototype suits have the same base armor and shields as their basic versions, the only thing they do right are modules and equipment but it's already confirmed that they'll nerf equipment in the next patch and probably they'll nerf module in the future too making prototype less desirable First things first. Fix that wall of text. My eyes hurt. Second: Proto gear SHOULD be better. Nobody I know argues against that. The problem right now is the fact that there is no game mode where you can AVOID proto. Newberries get thrown into the meat grinder and get chewed up and spit out. They need to do one of two things: 1.) Tiericide. Best answer by far. Proto suits become the basic versions. All other suits are simply specialized versions. Not better all around, but better in some areas, and worse in others. 2.) Restrict Basic, Advanced, and Proto gear in pubs. In short, you have modes where Basic is the highest you can use, Adv is the highest, and then "Low Sec" where anything goes. This will help player retention, and create areas where you can play against people at the same fitting level as you. (although you will still see some people going into basic with tricked out Core skill suits. That can't be helped. This is why Tiericide is the better option)
Nobody argues against prototype gear being improved? I've made several posts in this thread where I explicitly argue against buffing prototype gear. It provides plenty of advantage over ADV and STD gears.
I agree on suggestions 1 & 2 though. I'm skeptical that we'll ever see tiercide, purely due to the number of 'neo' suits and AUR proto weapons I see. I find it hard to believe that CCP would willingly discard a source of revenue. |
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