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Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
196
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Dust built on the old EvE adage "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose", and isn't price supposed to be a determining factor when it comes to how you fit your suits?
I've got just about 20 million ISK and since I use STD-level gear with occasional dips into ADV I have no economic woes. Should I start running PRO-gear however I would find myself using starter fits pretty quickly so for me, and people in similar economic circumstances, price is a very real issue when it comes to fitting suits.
But what about players who count their ISK not in tens of millions but in hundreds of millions? For them, exclusively (or almost exclusively) running Proto is a non-issue as they're not likely to burn their ISK anytime soon. This is a problem, not only because of proto-stomping but also because it devalues PRO-gear. All of the sudden, running Proto isn't just for when you need that extra amount of asskickery but instead, Proto becomes the norm and this hurts the market (which we don't really have yet) and the NPE, as newer players who lack the ISK to go face-to-face with Proto and the knowledge to fight them more cunningly have no real options of competing.
There is always going to be players with more ISK than others, either because they play more or because they're better at managing their finances and that's fair, completely fair.
Are there any solutions to this? Aside from redistributing wealth or CCP just taking sizable portions of ISK from the wealthier players, neither of which is good. Should PC be more expensive? Generally or just holding districts? |
The Robot Devil
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
1572
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not a problem. There is always going to be some whom are space rich and it should stay that way. We are not communist here and we shouldn't be trying to take people's ISK to make it fair.
GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
637
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Prices on almost everything are way too low. We need manufacturing and supply and demand to help fix these things. I am sure tanks will fly up in prices, along with proto suits and weapons.
Being rich is normal, and in EVE there are groups who can throw out a ton of expensive stuff, but it is far too common in DUST for most people to be able to afford to throw away expensive stuff. |
Deltahawk Durango
Zero-Day Attack Zero-Day
54
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
if income tax works in real economy, why not incorporate it in the dust economy... i'm not saying take away their money cuz they obviously earned it... just reduce the revenue they make per match on a tier-based system that factors in their net worth... just a suggestion cuz i don't really care but other peeps do... |
Callidus Vanus
Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
217
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
There are people in EVE whom could afford to lose a titan and it would only be a mild inconvenience. I can afford to run full proto almost indefinitely ( i don't but you get the idea). Money isn't an issue for everyone, welcome to capitalism.
Veteran of Caldari Prime.
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
3033
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't think there's enough in circulation. And I'm guilty of being part of the problem. I can't help but run cheap effective fits. I'm one of those who can count their isk in the hundreds of millions, but I still only run a proto suit literally 5-or-so times a day.
As I understand it, more proto on the field means bigger payouts, so spending more means receiving more. But until some realistic player market options open up to me, I'll be Smaug-ing it up to my heart's content.
One thing I'll dish out isk for: An Officer Heavy Laser. I'd spend every last penny on that shizzle.
No.
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steadyhand amarr
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
2237
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
A true player run market with manufactorying would quickly fix the isk problems were having running proto gear would spike but come down quickly once people isk supplies dry up or they deem it not cost effective
"i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk"
winner of EU squad cup
GOGO power rangers
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ReGnYuM
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
2023
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
I am rich because I earned my ISK.
Official Imperfect Title: Supreme Leader of the Endless Sunset
I Slay, for thy Empress
Do you even PC... Brah
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
4793
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Posted - 2014.02.03 15:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
This thread implies there is circulation
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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HYENAKILLER X
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
547
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Let me ask you this: why in an rpg fps is isk(money) almost as important as skill and team work?
Isk is to great a focal point in my opinion.
You are welcome for my leadership.
Proven Aggressive Type
I have spoken.
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Drapedup Drippedout
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
293
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:I am rich because I earned my ISK.
Finally with PC locking, he can |
stlcarlos989
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1082
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dying on avg 0-1 times in full proto in pubs still means profit, I'm at 400 million ISK and haven't been under 100 million in a long time and I don't mind dropping a few million in pubs, I even call in tanks for my bluedots so i don't have to deal with enemy tanks.
STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado, Cannabis Sativa Connoisseur
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Jake Bloodworth
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
385
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Income equality should NEVER be a focus in Dust. Players will always manage to be space rich. I think the only real income issue that matters(I'm calling myself out here), is those of us who were here pre uprising. We were the only players that received a massive isk influx akin to an actual economy, because CCP sold our assets for us. This is something a newer player can not do and therefore presents an "unfair" isk gain to older players.
That being said, "fair" is not a word mercs should use. The only isk advantage that should be debated is that of pre uprising vets. That ruined any hope of an economy in the short term. All other isk has been gained through mechanics that were available to other players, and sanctioned by CCP. That includes PC. |
Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
1285
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Not a problem. There is always going to be some whom are space rich and it should stay that way. We are not communist here and we shouldn't be trying to take people's ISK to make it fair.
While we don't "take people's ISK" persay, the game can, and should, add large ISK sinks for the wealthy to put their money into. This can be anything from suits and vehicles to completely not-gear related ways to spend money. The player market should help bleed some off, as AUR items will be able to be bought from other players for ISK. Imagine how much ISK one might have to pay to buy a 30-day booster from another player.
For corps/alliances who, thanks to district locking, and PC being horrible, have the money, I almost wondered if CCP should sell that "name a planet" reward they gave away for one tournament. Offer some of those corps the one time option to no longer be space rich in exchange for leaving a permanent mark on the New Eden landscape.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
639
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Deltahawk Durango wrote:if income tax works in real economy, why not incorporate it in the dust economy... i'm not saying take away their money cuz they obviously earned it... just reduce the revenue they make per match on a tier-based system that factors in their net worth... just a suggestion cuz i don't really care but other peeps do... There already is an income tax in DUST. It is up to your corporation how much to charge. |
Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
4796
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Not a problem. There is always going to be some whom are space rich and it should stay that way. We are not communist here and we shouldn't be trying to take people's ISK to make it fair. While we don't "take people's ISK" persay, the game can, and should, add large ISK sinks for the wealthy to put their money into. This can be anything from suits and vehicles to completely not-gear related ways to spend money. The player market should help bleed some off, as AUR items will be able to be bought from other players for ISK. Imagine how much ISK one might have to pay to buy a 30-day booster from another player. For corps/alliances who, thanks to district locking, and PC being horrible, have the money, I almost wondered if CCP should sell that "name a planet" reward they gave away for one tournament. Offer some of those corps the one time option to no longer be space rich in exchange for leaving a permanent mark on the New Eden landscape.
Weird. My post disappeared.
Anyway, I'd imagine that all of this stuff is going to balance out whenever we get around to having PC assets like MCCs and Installations being added to the check-list of things to buy for a battle.
http://youtu.be/rKtYqWBR7h0?t=1m3s
If district locking wasn't a factor and we had to buy these things, PC ISK Generation wouldn't even be brought up on the forums
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Nothing Certain
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
136
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Posted - 2014.02.03 16:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Not a problem. There is always going to be some whom are space rich and it should stay that way. We are not communist here and we shouldn't be trying to take people's ISK to make it fair.
Yes we are. Both the means of production and the currency is completely controlled by the central planners, CCP. They create it out of thin air with no ties to any stable metric, so we have hyperinflation and inequal distribution not tied to "productivity". There are no market mechanisms in place, there are only centrally planned payouts. |
Deltahawk Durango
Zero-Day Attack Zero-Day
55
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Deltahawk Durango wrote:if income tax works in real economy, why not incorporate it in the dust economy... i'm not saying take away their money cuz they obviously earned it... just reduce the revenue they make per match on a tier-based system that factors in their net worth... just a suggestion cuz i don't really care but other peeps do... There already is an income tax in DUST. It is up to your corporation how much to charge.
point taken... but rich corps charge 0% while the financially-impaired corps charge 5-10%
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2163
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Not a problem. There is always going to be some whom are space rich and it should stay that way. We are not communist here and we shouldn't be trying to take people's ISK to make it fair. While we don't "take people's ISK" persay, the game can, and should, add large ISK sinks for the wealthy to put their money into. This can be anything from suits and vehicles to completely not-gear related ways to spend money. The player market should help bleed some off, as AUR items will be able to be bought from other players for ISK. Imagine how much ISK one might have to pay to buy a 30-day booster from another player. For corps/alliances who, thanks to district locking, and PC being horrible, have the money, I almost wondered if CCP should sell that "name a planet" reward they gave away for one tournament. Offer some of those corps the one time option to no longer be space rich in exchange for leaving a permanent mark on the New Eden landscape. Weird. My post disappeared. Anyway, I'd imagine that all of this stuff is going to balance out whenever we get around to having PC assets like MCCs and Installations being added to the check-list of things to buy for a battle. http://youtu.be/rKtYqWBR7h0?t=1m3sIf district locking wasn't a factor and we had to buy these things, PC ISK Generation wouldn't even be brought up on the forums Imagine when we can bring ISK from EVE down. Just replace Passive ISK generation with Active ISK generation via PvE and PvP on districts.
Listen
I'll change the song every week
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Denn Maell
PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives
140
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Not a problem. There is always going to be some whom are space rich and it should stay that way. We are not communist here and we shouldn't be trying to take people's ISK to make it fair. Yes we are. Both the means of production and the currency is completely controlled by the central planners, CCP. They create it out of thin air with no ties to any stable metric, so we have hyperinflation and inequal distribution not tied to "productivity". There are no market mechanisms in place, there are only centrally planned payouts.
Indeed. Even Eve's vaunted "simulated free-market" is only partially free. NPC sell orders appear in all stations in a set price to normalize market prices for pretty much everything. When Dust has peer2peer marketplace I expect most of the buy/sell orders to be inserted by CCP themselves.
The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field:
One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
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Ayures II
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
361
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
ITT, DUST's 1%.
OCCUPY JITA |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3320
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
I kinda assume FW is ISK-free for that reason. Really though, it's impossible to balance the ludicrous wealth of the moneyed Dust-vet-elite against a new player.
A new player doesn't even have the money to afford to skill into a weapon by default before being kicked out of the academy and getting pub-stomped. In contrast, anyone that played even intermittently since launch probably had more ISK than they had things to spend it on (excepting some vehicle people). Part of that is because the launch-isk-refund would've given everyone market value for all the non-officer gear people had sitting around that they had no means of selling and no use for.
You can't inflate costs of items without inserting a huge gulf for new players (and it's unrealistic to expect complete strangers to magic their way into a corp for financial support out of the gate). It's possible that prices need to be adjusted, mind you.
If pub matches had gear restrictions (say STD/MLT suits/weapons/modules only), then it would keep the costs down there. The problem there is that the player-base is already small, and std AV can't touch vehicles as-is. That, and it means that FW becomes the default proto-stomping ground and it's already very lop-sided between factions.
You could theoretically have gear-tier restrictions by security status. High-sec bans weapons/gear better than STD. Low-sec bans weapons/gear better than ADV. All gear is allowed in Null-sec. This is vaguely equivalent to the EVE universe in the sense of various weapons and ships not being allowed in high-security space. That's what the "security" is about after all. However, I don't know if the playerbase is large enough for that to be practical.
I think the player market will wind up being interesting, but I'm concerned about player-manufacturing of goods being a completely EVE-side function. It seems like it would necessarily be a large limit on Dust players, making us second-class citizens in the universe that are completely beholden to EVE players. I'd prefer that Dust players actually have direct access to production, through some means or another. Whether that means we control mining operations in PC, rent out factory space, or have to build manufacturing skill trees... it seems preferable than being slaves to the whims of EVE players.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
1824
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
The amount isn't the issue, it's the virtually risk-free passive PC income generation via district-locking. People who fight for and defend their districts or have been playing at a high level for a year plus will be and should be "space rich" because that's earned.
The several billion ISK a day being generated by corps like Nyain San who don't expend any real effort to keep them, on the other hand....
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.1
Amarr victor!
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
4798
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I kinda assume FW is ISK-free for that reason. Really though, it's impossible to balance the ludicrous wealth of the moneyed Dust-vet-elite against a new player.
A new player doesn't even have the money to afford to skill into a weapon by default before being kicked out of the academy and getting pub-stomped. In contrast, anyone that played even intermittently since launch probably had more ISK than they had things to spend it on (excepting some vehicle people). Part of that is because the launch-isk-refund would've given everyone market value for all the non-officer gear people had sitting around that they had no means of selling and no use for.
You can't inflate costs of items without inserting a huge gulf for new players (and it's unrealistic to expect complete strangers to magic their way into a corp for financial support out of the gate). It's possible that prices need to be adjusted, mind you.
If pub matches had gear restrictions (say STD/MLT suits/weapons/modules only), then it would keep the costs down there. The problem there is that the player-base is already small, and std AV can't touch vehicles as-is. That, and it means that FW becomes the default proto-stomping ground and it's already very lop-sided between factions.
You could theoretically have gear-tier restrictions by security status. High-sec bans weapons/gear better than STD. Low-sec bans weapons/gear better than ADV. All gear is allowed in Null-sec. This is vaguely equivalent to the EVE universe in the sense of various weapons and ships not being allowed in high-security space. That's what the "security" is about after all. However, I don't know if the playerbase is large enough for that to be practical.
I think the player market will wind up being interesting, but I'm concerned about player-manufacturing of goods being a completely EVE-side function. It seems like it would necessarily be a large limit on Dust players, making us second-class citizens in the universe that are completely beholden to EVE players. I'd prefer that Dust players actually have direct access to production, through some means or another. Whether that means we control mining operations in PC, rent out factory space, or have to build manufacturing skill trees... it seems preferable than being slaves to the whims of EVE players.
I'd really like it if they'd put a star or something next to their names so I know who to help out and who is going to flip their **** whenever I send them a message in-game asking if they're new/need advice.
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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General John Ripper
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
18722
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Posted - 2014.02.03 18:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
100m+?
LOLOL I have a dozen friends with over a billion each.
My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1532
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Posted - 2014.02.03 19:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ayures II wrote:ITT, DUST's 1%.
OCCUPY JITA
Hippie! We have trickle down JITAnomics in this game and it works just fine. Why, in FW and PC you get the very equipment your rich enemies were using against you.
Sure, that red dot was using a full proto fit. Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and shoot him in the face. Then wait for the random equipment distributor to give you some of his stuff.
A rising tide lifts all spaceships, donchaknow.
I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - draconian forum overlord CCP Logibro]
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
576
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Posted - 2014.02.03 19:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
@Vulcanus You can blame PC mechanics for the massive wealth in game currently. 10-14 million a day/district in PC. Its worse with game breaking district locking that was a staple in PC as soon as people were "afraid" to defend their territory. Its a WIN button unfortunately. People can never be removed from their districts and they still make income.
PC currently produces ~3 Billion isk a DAY.
I have been playing Dust for over a year running ADV gear and have excess of 100mil in my bank that came from public matches alone. But that pales in comparison to the risk free isk generation in PC.
As far a running prototype. I don't really mind them running prototype, it lets me make more isk in public matches AND gives me a challenge. The problem comes from stomping on new guys that leave the game because the insurmountable climb they have to make.
I think the player market will forever be broken due to the issues with PC. It likely wont stabilize for years. If the cost of gear/assets starts to climb, the vets will have no problems paying for it, while keeping it even more difficult for new people to "break in"
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Youtube
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Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
199
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Posted - 2014.02.03 19:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:The amount isn't the issue, it's the virtually risk-free passive PC income generation via district-locking. People who fight for and defend their districts or have been playing at a high level for a year plus will be and should be "space rich" because that's earned.
The several billion ISK a day being generated by corps like Nyain San who don't expend any real effort to keep them, on the other hand....
IgniteableAura wrote:@Vulcanus You can blame PC mechanics for the massive wealth in game currently. 10-14 million a day/district in PC. Its worse with game breaking district locking that was a staple in PC as soon as people were "afraid" to defend their territory. Its a WIN button unfortunately. People can never be removed from their districts and they still make income.
PC currently produces ~3 Billion isk a DAY.
I have been playing Dust for over a year running ADV gear and have excess of 100mil in my bank that came from public matches alone. But that pales in comparison to the risk free isk generation in PC.
As far a running prototype. I don't really mind them running prototype, it lets me make more isk in public matches AND gives me a challenge. The problem comes from stomping on new guys that leave the game because the insurmountable climb they have to make.
I think the player market will forever be broken due to the issues with PC. It likely wont stabilize for years. If the cost of gear/assets starts to climb, the vets will have no problems paying for it, while keeping it even more difficult for new people to "break in"
What could be done about PC then? Is it simply a matter of making holding or locking districts more expensive or what?
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Appia Vibbia
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
915
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Posted - 2014.02.03 20:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Even if I didn't make ISK off of PC I would still have several hundred million, it is because of PC that I spend it like candy. My most typical build in pub matches are a Assault C-1 with an ADV plasma cannon and STD scrambler pistol and a Scout G-1 with basic shotgun. More recently I've added a Scout M-1 with ADV nova knives to my repertoire of pub match suits. I can lose 30 suits a match and break even if I'm playing ambush. Or, more likely, make a 0.25Million ISK profit per ambush. That's about 1 million isk per hour, given time to mess around in chat channels, wait for others to restock, and wait for deployment.
In the rare times I do use proto in pubs, I suffer less than 3 deaths which means I'll end up with ISK profit, though usually barely braking even to only making 25k.
Most of my ISK ends up paying for PC, which still has me earning ISK at the end of the week. The only reason I actually lose ISK is because I like to put bounties on other people during matches or if I am serious about winning then I'll pay my squad 2 million to all run proto and 5 million each if we win.
There is too much ISK in DUST. I see lowering payouts in all game-modes as the solution, but not a very good one.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
[email protected] (checked every Monday morning)
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1074
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Posted - 2014.02.03 20:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:I don't think there's enough in circulation. And I'm guilty of being part of the problem. I can't help but run cheap effective fits. I'm one of those who can count their isk in the hundreds of millions, but I still only run a proto suit literally 5-or-so times a day.
As I understand it, more proto on the field means bigger payouts, so spending more means receiving more. But until some realistic player market options open up to me, I'll be Smaug-ing it up to my heart's content.
One thing I'll dish out isk for: An Officer Heavy Laser. I'd spend every last penny on that shizzle. +1 for The Hobbit reference.
MAG ~ Raven
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