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IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:

Krom Ganesh wrote:

A proto caldari scout (I'm assuming it has a role of anti-scout scout) can pick up other scouts passively. Add 1 complex precision module to cancel out 1 enhanced dampener. 2 precision to pick up scouts running between 1 complex dampener to 1 complex + 1 enhanced. (sorry hard to conceptualize in text)

By using a cloak though, a scout can use 1 complex dampener and have the equivalent of two. With a profile of 18dB They would then only be scanned by a Cal scout running 3 precision enhancers (out of 4 highs) or a Gal Logi with a duvolled focused scanner.

Not only are you cloaked but you cant get scanned either....

My math says *any* caldari scout at level 5 (the suit is irrelevant) will not be able to passively scan any other scout (Caldari included). There is no anti-scout role at these base levels - none of them will be able to p-scan the others.

All 1.8 scouts will have base 35dB profile, and base 45dB precision. A caldari scout at level 5 will get 45 / 1.25 = 36dB precision. That's above the base scout profile so it won't pick them up.


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Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 641	Posted - 2014.01.22 23:27:00 - [1] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Ghermard-ol Dizeriois wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Thing is, they have fitting capability to burn. Lesseee.. amarr proto logi. (details snipped...) Total tank: 812 Nice little CLOAKED mini-heavy you have there. Sure it's a good fit, but remember (1) you cannot fire while cloaked, (2) running will make you more visible and (3) most of scanners will still be able to pick you up. No, they wont scan the logi. While cloaked, with NO points in dampening, logi profile will be 37.5 So thats less than basic scanner. with only 3 points in damp, logi + cloak will be @35.25 (50 * .94 * .75) That is less than ADV scanner. and oh by the way, swapping out just ONE armor module, for a proto damp, will get the logi to 27dB. Which is LESS THAN PROTO SCANNERS, except for the focused. Whoa there chief. Take a deep breath. and exhale. This is exactly the situation that the high fitting is designed for. Yes a logi could fit a cloak. For that matter so could an assault or a commando. But they are going to be able to use them in any way as well as a scout will be able to. Which is exactly how the roles should work. Any logi (pending the new CPU/PG stats on logis) that does try to go that route.....is pretty useless. They would have gimped themselves on equipment, gimped on fitting, no damage mods, low buffer, slower than scouts, hard to fit a decent weapon.... We might finally have a situation where scouts would do something better than logis. If anything I would say that the 25% reduction in profile while cloaked is a tad OP. I like the idea of having that bonus but perhaps scaled back and then increases based on the tier of cloak. 10% on standard, 15-18% on adv and 20-25% on complex. That would keep that bonus essentially to scouts only and provide an incentive to use the higher tier gear on top of the increased cloak times. Though again, I think the extra bonus on top of what scouts already have in terms of profile.....could be OP. Actually it probably is. A proto caldari scout (I'm assuming it has a role of anti-scout scout) can pick up other scouts passively. Add 1 complex precision module to cancel out 1 enhanced dampener. 2 precision to pick up scouts running between 1 complex dampener to 1 complex + 1 enhanced. (sorry hard to conceptualize in text) By using a cloak though, a scout can use 1 complex dampener and have the equivalent of two. With a profile of 18dB They would then only be scanned by a Cal scout running 3 precision enhancers (out of 4 highs) or a Gal Logi with a duvolled focused scanner. Not only are you cloaked but you cant get scanned either....
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 641	Posted - 2014.01.22 23:50:00 - [2] - Quote Just to make this clear since my other post rambled a bit. I would hope that CCP takes a second look at the dampening bonus while cloaked. In my opinion it is too much to give to an already stealthy scout profile and is preventing some counters to cloaks. In adding the cloak you need to have an appropriate counter-measure. To me that counter would be scanning (passive or active). But in adding the extra profile bonus under cloak....that basically just bypassed the one counter. I'm a scout since early open beta. I appreciate the thought of being invisible to everything, unfortunately i think that would be broken and quickly turn into FOTM.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 644	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:26:00 - [3] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: I don't see the extra 25% of dampening from the cloak as a big deal. It's basically like throwing a complex profile dampener on your suit, at the huge cost that the cloaks come with, and a dampener that is only working when your cloak is active. Remember that scanning itself will be far less effective as it is now (given the snapshot effect, long cooldown times, and "dark" times between consecutive scans, as illumination time is now shorter than the cooldown time). I see the dampening on cloaks as something to make up for not giving the non-Gal scouts the 5% profile reduction per level. This will get them to the same profile dB as non-cloaked Gal scouts so long as they remain cloaked. While they can evade 28dB proto scans when their cloak is active, they'd still need additional dampening to avoid Gal Logi proto scans (21dB) or focused scans (15dB). Ummm...so with one complex dampener plus a cloak you are now at 18.5 dB. Well under what ANY suit can get with an active scanner EXCEPT two. The only suits that could then scan on a scout would be 1) Gal logi with the duvolled focused (now at 20dB native precision with new equip stats) OR 2) Caldari scout wearing 3 complex precision enhancers (out of 4 slots available). That is absolutely ridiculous Remember that this is ANY scout wearing a STANDARD cloak with 1 complex dampener. A NON SCOUT will be at 25 dB with 1 complex dampener and a STANDARD cloak. Meaning only a Gal logi with a proto (non-focussed) scanner, anyone using a duvolled focused, or a cal scout sporting a precision enhancer could pick them up. Not only that, but you just admitted that they are nerfing scanners. In the same sentence as saying that extra dampening on cloaks isn't a big deal. So the only counter to cloaks just got a nerf and is less effective, sure that dampening power is fine (sarcasm).... I would be very concerned if this bonus stays constant throughout the tiers and even more concerned if the top end remains at 25% bonus. It's too much people. To stay off scanners *completely* should totally gimp a suit (or be super specialized, ie gallente scout). Not cost you ONE module slot and an equipment that you were going to use anyways.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 644	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:34:00 - [4] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Krom Ganesh wrote: A proto caldari scout (I'm assuming it has a role of anti-scout scout) can pick up other scouts passively. Add 1 complex precision module to cancel out 1 enhanced dampener. 2 precision to pick up scouts running between 1 complex dampener to 1 complex + 1 enhanced. (sorry hard to conceptualize in text) By using a cloak though, a scout can use 1 complex dampener and have the equivalent of two. With a profile of 18dB They would then only be scanned by a Cal scout running 3 precision enhancers (out of 4 highs) or a Gal Logi with a duvolled focused scanner. Not only are you cloaked but you cant get scanned either.... My math says any caldari scout at level 5 (the suit is irrelevant) will not be able to passively scan any other scout (Caldari included). There is no anti-scout role at these base levels - none of them will be able to p-scan the others. All 1.8 scouts will have base 35dB profile, and base 45dB precision. A caldari scout at level 5 will get 45 / 1.25 = 36dB precision. That's above the base scout profile so it won't pick them up. You forgot the passive bonus from the skill. Proto cal scout with full skill in precision has a passive scan precision of ~30 dB. This picks up any non-gallente scout that isn't sporting any dampener. 1 precision enhancer picks up suits down to 24 dB (scouts must have 1 complex damp to beat) 2 precision enhancer picks up suits down to 20 dB (scouts must have 2 complex damp to beat) Regardless, you're making my point for me. Adding more dampening through the cloak is not counterable except by one extremely specialized suit (gal logi) and even then requires proto gear to pick up a standard scout with one module and a standard cloak.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 647	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:22:00 - [5] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I'll just post this here as well: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Driftward wrote: ...snip.... I get what you're saying but personally I'm not a fan of having to completely gimp my suit because one guy brings out a focused scanner. I have to do that now or just not run my suit. The point of the suit is to avoid detection. To reduce it's ability to avoid detection anymore will put us right back at where we are now: having to gimp our suits to avoid scanners. I want those days to be over. I'm tired of my eHP getting cut because one person is running a scanner. I will already have to cut my eHP to run a damp if someone is using a focus. I'd rather not have to run two and waste all three of my low slots just to avoid detection. Simply put, the bonus makes sense. It's an active dampener with a bonus high enough to get a scout below a focused when he wants to be. It allows a scout to be a scout. Yah consistency is a *****. but I'm starting to rethink my positions in term of game balance....and this is taken out of context regardless touche sir, touche. Context is needed here though. This was in regards to the removal of the profile bonus (pre-stat change release) such that scouts would have a base profile of 45 dB. Big difference when here I'm talking about scouts in relation to 35 dB base profile. However, that was also with scanners as they were previously. With the new changes to scanners such that there aren't 360 scans by doing the scan dance, they are much more directionally limited. Even if you are running a proto scanner that can pick me up, you better be point in the right 1/6 th of map to pick me up so that I don't run behind you and disappear. It's a very delicate balance and any changes will have fairly dramatic effect. That's why I'm concerned about combining a cloaking module with complex dampener into one unit.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 649	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:45:00 - [6] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Yes lets make it so when you're playing a stealth role, you're not stealthy at all. ::face palm:: Electronic stealth and visible stealth are two different things. I'm not saying make the scout show up on everyones tacnet upon cloaking. With the right modules (ie one complex dampener) they won't be scanned by the majority of players except those trying to counter scouts. To beat them you would have to invest in a fit with more stealth. But in order to do so you make compromises: less passive range, less buffer, or drop a low slot shield mod. A system of checks and balances. If you want full stealth.....go gallente scout. But not ALL scouts should be able to do that with an equipment and one module. If you give cloaks a profile reduction then what incentive is there to use a gallente scout? Their specialization just got reduced to a single range bonus since every scout could achieve the same profile stealth with very little loss of module slots (ie one equipment they were going to use anyways). Checks and balances. I'd rather find out that I need more stealth later rather than be OP to start and get FOTM mobbed. Maybe that's just me.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 653	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:11:00 - [7] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Driftward - would you be happy then if 25% was the profile bonus on the Proto cloak and lesser reductions on the Advanced and Standard ? I think that the 25% is too much even for the proto. However, I think that at the VERY LEAST, the cloaks should be nerfed to having a tiered bonus of profile dampening. Ie 5% at std 8-10% at adv 12-15% at complex Like I said, I'm not convinced that cloak should have a profile bonus. But I am convinced that 25% is too much and is too good especially at the standard level of cloak. Thanks for bringing this point up
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 653	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:21:00 - [8] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: So you are saying that someone who is running a Proto cloak (stil dont know skill multiplier) plus the necessary amount of dampening shouldnt be electronically invisible for 80 secs ? I wouldnt go that far. There is still a visual and audible cue and if you move at speed those will be magnified. Hey, you just said it. " plus the necessary amount of dampening" I'm not arguing that we should be completely vulnerable. just at the state of profile invisibility that we normally would have. Check out this link to see what lengths people have to go to just to pick up scouts at current stats. Scouts and scanning 1.8 Thanks to the author (not me) who made this sheet. It is awesome.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 653	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:53:00 - [9] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Well that line was for medium frames trying to be super dampened - not Lv5 scouts. It was CCP who chose to give all scouts the base and only have the Gallente increase per level. Lol. But yah. Cloak shouldn't be a catch all piece of equipment. Just one more tool in the old box. Good luck medium frames.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 660	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:48:00 - [10] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Yes lets make it so when you're playing a stealth role, you're not stealthy at all. ::face palm:: I know man. Sometimes this community makes me facepalm. Clearly adding one complex dampener to be undetectable by all except one suit with one piece of equipment (out of every other possibility) is clearly not stealthy at all. The definition has been revised people. No one is stealthy unless they are undetectable at all times, absolutely. Also, this level of stealth should be achieved using one module. It has been decreed. (Massively aggressive sarcasm) Just because you say the suggestions that I'm putting out are bad and make scouts unworkable....doesn't make it so. Put out some numbers. Convince me why my position is wrong. Show me why we NEED that cloak profile bonus to be at all tenable as scouts. And you can't use just one race. Give me numbers for every race and show me why scouts as a class need a profile bonus from cloaks.