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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
1064
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Posted - 2014.01.21 04:53:00 -
[61] - Quote
The Amarr stamina bonus is a bit underwhelming.... I think for sure they need another something to add on to make the suit a bit more desireable. I wouldn't be inclined to remove the stamina bonus, but increasing it wouldn't be bad. I'm not sure how I feel about 100% though.... even though it is equivalent to a complex module, no other complex module has a 100% bonus, and coupled with the Amarr suits already superior stamina and regen, I think that is pushing the bounds a bit in terms of what a suit should be capable of without equipping a module.
50/50 may be fine provided some other bonus was added; and this would still provide some insane stamina when an actual cardiac regulator module was added on top of this.
I'm failing when it comes to thinking of an additional suitable Amarr scout bonus but there's got to be something out there. The bonus to ferro scale plates did sound pretty nice. Maybe some fitting reduction costs to amarr weaponry, so the suit could equip better modules and weapons with less compromise....
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
339
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Posted - 2014.01.21 04:59:00 -
[62] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1) I am asking for equality in boost, not equality in function or purpose. This is a simple thing, a basic thing I am asking for. I am asking that all suits be created with an equal baseline, and under equal conditions. Apparently this is just WAY TO MUCH to ask for from the FotM crowd on these forums. Even you are dumb enough to suggest (multiple times in fact) that equality in boosts means homogenizing the suits.
2)The only suit I have a huge problem with is the minmatar, and that is because it is HILARIOUSLY OP. Why is EVERYONE not pointing out the fact that this suit is getting insane bonuses???? This suit is going to get 35% bonus to hacking speed (all others will be 5%) and 25% damage bonus?? I feel like I must be in some kind of crazy house that this isn't a HUGE DEAL.
Let me put it to you this way, the minmatar scout will be able to hack an objective in 5.85 seconds WITHOUT any modules fitted, the other scouts (the next fastest) will be 8.55 seconds. Oh and on top of this, every time the minmatar suit hits R1, it will be able to do 1,150 damage WITHOUT damage mods. Thats right, the minnie scout with no damage mods will do the same amount of damage as the plasma cannon.
3) I am sick of having to correct the same ******** crap over and over and over again. Like people saying that 5% stamina /lvl is op (lol) or how minnies aren't getting the equivalent of 5 free mods, or if you can believe this, claiming that the natural attributes of amarrian suits are a bonus by themselves....
Wow. You appear to have missed some of my post...
1) I'm not sure if you noticed, but I support the call for changes to the Amarr bonus. The problem is the method by which you're asking for it. The suits are not equal and cannot be directly compared through the prism of a single bonus. As mentioned in my original post, 'The Amarr scout should be balanced to support a unique and viable playstyle, not to make them the equivalent of everything else'. How you compare directly to other suits is not important, as long as you are viable, particularly against medium and heavy suits. Picking a point issue and discarding all other analysis because it doesn't agree with your pre-determined viewpoint is a poor substitute for a reasoned discourse.
Oh, and just FYI, claiming that scouts are FOTM chasers is laughable at best. Maybe try that one after 1.8 has dropped.
2) As I said, take my hacking bonus, it's situationally useful and does not compare to the generalist bonuses that the Amarr, Gal and Cal suits receive. I'd much prefer the max stamina increase and regen bonus. Bonuses that are applicable in specific situations are not OP, unless you think that hacking or the ability to kill someone from within 2m is going to turn the tide of battle.
Let me fix that for you:
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:every time the minmatar suit that has maxed out the scout skill and has a single specific weapon equipped hits R1 to charge it before attacking, and is standing within 2 metres of a target unnoticed by either them or their team mates, it will be able to do 1,150 damage WITHOUT damage mods. Thats right, the minnie scout with no damage mods will do the same amount of damage as the plasma cannon, but only when standing within 2 metres of a target and with 1.5 million skill points invested. 3) I'm going to answer this in a couple of parts because you cover alot of crazy here.
Like people saying that 5% stamina /lvl is op (lol) It isn't, and I didn't. 5% a level is fine, as a secondary bonus. Feel free to make a recommendation on what would make a good primary bonus, instead of fighting everyone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say.
or how minnies aren't getting the equivalent of 5 free mods This is pure fallacy and is one of the reasons people are disagreeing with you. The Nova Knife bonus in no way equates to 3 complex mods. As I mentioned, I'd be happy to support this bonus being applied to the Amarr scout so you can experience it in all it's glory.
or if you can believe this, claiming that the natural attributes of amarrian suits are a bonus by themselves Your hypocrisy in this statement on natural attributes is shown by your posting for section 2, where you, once again, reference the natural attributes of the Minmatar scout to inflate figures and reinforce your argument Magnus Amadeuss wrote:This suit is going to get 35% bonus to hacking speed (all others will be 5%) and 25% damage bonus?? Have it one way or another, but if you're going to bring the natural attributes of other suits into the argument, then you can't really complain about it.
That said, all attributes of the suit should be considered for balancing purposes, not just the ones that you'd like to look at.
Two final things, and hopefully you've made it this far without frothing in rage and face rolling your keyboard for a response to at an alternate viewpoint being aired.
1.
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:The only suit I have a huge problem with is the minmatar, and that is because it is HILARIOUSLY OP Refer to points two and three from my original post. there's no need to attack other scouts and it only harms your cause. Your main concern should makeing the Amarr suit viable, and the balance of light frames against medium and heavy frames.
2. And as you've appeared to miss most of it, here's a link to my original post, where you have managed to completely ignore any of the advice provided. Try reading again, and maybe consider taking some of it onboard, instead of continually attacking people who have already stated that they support your cause. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1746160#post1746160 |
Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
996
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Posted - 2014.01.21 05:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Oh I am going to need a source for your CCP (you know, that they knew it was going to be a quagmire) stuff there. It seems kind of odd that this was said at some point, but has never once been brought up during all of the vehicle bitching that has been going on.
Well, I don't keep tabs on blue tags so you'll just have to wait until someone comes along that does.
I'll take a look at your proposed changes in a minute. I'm going outside to smoke and take a break for a few minutes. And for god's sake put it in your OP, not buried four pages in.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
379
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Posted - 2014.01.21 05:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
Brokerib wrote: Wow. You appear to have missed some of my post...
1) I'm not sure if you noticed, but I support the call for changes to the Amarr bonus. The problem is the method by which you're asking for it. The suits are not equal and cannot be directly compared through the prism of a single bonus. As mentioned in my original post, 'The Amarr scout should be balanced to support a unique and viable playstyle, not to make them the equivalent of everything else'. How you compare directly to other suits is not important, as long as you are viable, particularly against medium and heavy suits. Picking a point issue and discarding all other analysis because it doesn't agree with your pre-determined viewpoint is a poor substitute for a reasoned discourse.
Oh, and just FYI, claiming that scouts are FOTM chasers is laughable at best. Maybe try that one after 1.8 has dropped.
I claimed that the ones defending the OPness (such as yourself) of the minmatar suit are FotMers. You guys spot an OP thing (such as vehicles are now) and defend it as being balanced when of course it is no where near balanced, not even close.
And of course we directly compare suits, this is because all of these suits have generalized roles and specific roles, and they should not SUCK in their generalized role, and they should of course have a useful specialized role. You are the one who claims I am picking one specific point issue and discarding the rest. Here is a simple, easy to understand point i have made that is irrefutable. 25% damage bonus to nova knives is worth 3 complex modules. It is you and your buddies who can not understand that this is not debatable.
Brokerib wrote:
2) As I said, take my hacking bonus, it's situationally useful and does not compare to the generalist bonuses that the Amarr, Gal and Cal suits receive. I'd much prefer the max stamina increase and regen bonus. Bonuses that are applicable in specific situations are not OP, unless you think that hacking or the ability to kill someone from within 2m is going to turn the tide of battle.
Uhh.... stamina and regen are the definition of situational, so is the dampner bonus. At anytime from full stamina to time +30seconds, the stamina bonus is 100% useless. The stamina bonus is 100% useless for jumping and melee'ing. So once again, this bonus is ONLY useful when you are sprinting, and that is ONLY when you would not have reached your destination or required a smidge more stamina to begin with... both HIGHLY situational occurrences.
Brokerib wrote:Let me fix that for you: ....
Please don't.... for one, of course we compare at full skills, that is what you balance around. If you do not take full skills into account you get situations like the old flaylock that becomes beastly when skilled, but fine when not. OH and yes, when the minnie scout cloaks and sneaks up behind... well anyone, and has a 0.8s window of opportunity, it will OHKO just about every suit in the game....
Brokerib wrote:3) I'm going to answer this in a couple of parts because you cover alot of crazy here. Like people saying that 5% stamina /lvl is op (lol)It isn't, and I didn't. 5% a level is fine, as a secondary bonus. Feel free to make a recommendation on what would make a good primary bonus, instead of fighting everyone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say. or how minnies aren't getting the equivalent of 5 free modsThis is pure fallacy and is one of the reasons people are disagreeing with you. The Nova Knife bonus in no way equates to 3 complex mods. As I mentioned, I'd be happy to support this bonus being applied to the Amarr scout so you can experience it in all it's glory. or if you can believe this, claiming that the natural attributes of amarrian suits are a bonus by themselvesYour hypocrisy in this statement on natural attributes is shown by your posting for section 2, where you, once again, reference the natural attributes of the Minmatar scout to inflate figures and reinforce your argument Magnus Amadeuss wrote:This suit is going to get 35% bonus to hacking speed (all others will be 5%) and 25% damage bonus?? Have it one way or another, but if you're going to bring the natural attributes of other suits into the argument, then you can't really complain about it. A) 5% is less than that of a militia mod, if you were to say that the bonus should be equivelent to that of a miltia mod I might agree with you.
B) I don't care if you don't like it, it is thr truth. You get a 25% bonus to hacking, a 5% (5% more than any other scout for no reason) bonus to hacking, and a 25% bonus to damage. That shakes out to be 5 modules worth of bonuses. Just because you and others like you want to deny it doesn't make it any less true. Just like how amarr assault needed to fit laser weapons, so to must the minmatar fit caldari weapons.
C)I am having it one way. The addiotional 5% hacking above and beyond what is given across the suits is an addiotnal hidden bonus. In all other suits the balance was maintained without this additional 5% hacking speed or 3 hp/sec, therefore these need to be accounted for. The attributes of the suits have and were completely balanced outside of these seemingly random additions.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
342
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Posted - 2014.01.21 10:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
Spanned across two posts.
Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I claimed that the ones defending the OPness (such as yourself) of the minmatar suit are FotMers. You guys spot an OP thing (such as vehicles are now) and defend it as being balanced when of course it is no where near balanced, not even close. Let me ask you one question. Do you think Minmatar scouts are overpowered now? Because they already have the knife bonus. The difference between the current scout and what it looks like in 1.8 is the ability to hack faster and stat changes/equipment that all scouts will benefit from. If the Minmatar scout is not currently overpowered, then youGÇÖre talking out your ass.
The high power of the Minmatar scout at extreme close range is balanced by its massive weakness at any range. It's a high risk/reward suit.
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:And of course we directly compare suits, this is because all of these suits have generalized roles and specific roles, and they should not SUCK in their generalized role, and they should of course have a useful specialized role. You are the one who claims I am picking one specific point issue and discarding the rest. Here is a simple, easy to understand point i have made that is irrefutable. 25% damage bonus to nova knives is worth 3 complex modules. It is you and your buddies who can not understand that this is not debatable. Your generalised role is supported by your natural stats (lower base profile, lower scan fidelity, lower hack time, faster speed, higher stamina and regen, high shield regen) and the class bonus (15% reduction to cloak fittings) compared to medium and heavy suits. Claiming that you're unable to be a scout because other light suits are able to out scout you in specific areas is a poor argument. The issue with the Amarr suit is that it lacks direction to its specialised role, not that it can't perform its general function.
So to disprove my point you pick a single point issue?
Full answer to you 3 module equivalent in the below post.
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Uhh.... stamina and regen are the definition of situational, so is the dampner bonus. At anytime from full stamina to time +30seconds, the stamina bonus is 100% useless. The stamina bonus is 100% useless for jumping and melee'ing. So once again, this bonus is ONLY useful when you are sprinting, and that is ONLY when you would not have reached your destination or required a smidge more stamina to begin with... both HIGHLY situational occurrences.
Not on scouts they're not. As a mobility and stealth based class, these are the scouts defence. Armour and shields are for when you **** up.
Stamina is always potentially useful, as it relates to mobility. And while not directly beneficial to jumping or melee, the higher stamina pool and bonus means that you will retain a larger proportion of your pool after running an equivalent distance. A basic Amarr scout with no modules and the level 5 bonus can run for 25 seconds, and then jump. No other scout can do that.
I understand that this may seem like a small thing, but itGÇÖs not insignificant, and certainly not 100% useless.
Continued below... |
Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
342
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Posted - 2014.01.21 10:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Please don't.... for one, of course we compare at full skills, that is what you balance around. If you do not take full skills into account you get situations like the old flaylock that becomes beastly when skilled, but fine when not. OH and yes, when the minnie scout cloaks and sneaks up behind... well anyone, and has a 0.8s window of opportunity, it will OHKO just about every suit in the game....
The Amarr has exactly the same opportunity, minus the 25% bonus to damage with one specific weapon that involves a high level of risk. The Nova Knife will OHK most mediums, all lights, and occasional heavies, one at a time. You can do the same and use grenades or REs with the cloak to get the same or better result, without the same level of risk. If youGÇÖre claiming that the cloak makes the Minmatar OP, youGÇÖre claiming that the cloak makes all scouts OP.
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:A) 5% is less than that of a militia mod, if you were to say that the bonus should be equivelent to that of a miltia mod I might agree with you. B) I don't care if you don't like it, it is thr truth. You get a 25% bonus to hacking, a 5% (5% more than any other scout for no reason) bonus to hacking, and a 25% bonus to damage. That shakes out to be 5 modules worth of bonuses. Just because you and others like you want to deny it doesn't make it any less true. Just like how amarr assault needed to fit laser weapons, so to must the minmatar fit caldari weapons. C)I am having it one way. The addiotional 5% hacking above and beyond what is given across the suits is an addiotnal hidden bonus. In all other suits the balance was maintained without this additional 5% hacking speed or 3 hp/sec, therefore these need to be accounted for. The attributes of the suits have and were completely balanced outside of these seemingly random additions. A) 5% on a higher base, as a secondary bonus. Working under the same assumptions you use for the hacking calculation, your stamina bonus, when considered with the inherent base stamina pool and regen (additional bonus) above the scout base (200 and 30), is equivalent to a 37.5% increase to max stamina, and a 58% bonus to regen, which is above a basic module. Feel free to refute this if you like, but at least be consistent in your calculations.
B) As has already been mentioned multiple times, you can't count the nova knife bonus as a sidearm damage module, because it isn't a sidearm damage module. It's a unique bonus for a single weapon and suit, and provides a unique risk/reward proposition. Equating a unique bonus to generalised modules doesn't work. For arguments sake, I would say it is the equivalent of a single proto module. Claiming it is anything more than that is overblown.
And as already mentioned, if you think that the Nova Knife bonus is so good, feel free to push for it to be added to the Amarr suit, and I'll happily support it and you can experience the value of GÇÿthree modulesGÇÖ for yourself.
C) Or the additional stam and regen on the Amarr and the additional shield recharge on the Caldari? Each suit has advantages. Just because you don't like yours doesn't mean that they're inherently unfair. And as theyGÇÖre in the info released by CCP, theyGÇÖre hardly hidden.
In addition to your inherent bonus, you also have a full stamina regen time of 5.625 seconds at the base level, which is fastest of all other suits, and makes a nice counter point to the Minmatar base speed bonus, in that this is an inherent bonus that outstrips every other scout.
I'll make it simple for you. I support changes in the Amarr bonus. Come up with some that a workable and provide the suit with a viable role. And maybe try doing it without attacking everyone just because they donGÇÖt agree with your reasoning 100%. |
Faquira Bleuetta
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
197
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Posted - 2014.01.21 11:10:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jotun Izalaru wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Let me put it to you this way, the minmatar scout will be able to hack an objective in 5.85 seconds WITHOUT any modules fitted, the other scouts (the next fastest) will be 8.55 seconds. Oh and on top of this, every time the minmatar suit hits R1, it will be able to do 1,150 damage WITHOUT damage mods. Thats right, the minnie scout with no damage mods will do the same amount of damage as the plasma cannon.
You mean, every time the Minmatar scout successfully uses stealth to approach an opponent, holds R1 for a moment, and the opponent doesn't move literally at all (especially backpedalling) then he gets to do 1150 damage. Don't forget the little details like "NK's are complete garbage unless the stars align through sheer willpower on the Scout's part." at least is more easy to use NK than PLC lol
QQ king kobrah QQ
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