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Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:02:00 - [1] - Quote Right now the 1.8 scouts have a seriously skewed bonus structure. When taking into account the bonuses and translating them into effective modules, you come up with. Minmatar bonuses = 5 free modules (4 proto type and 1 basic) Gallente bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr bonuses = 0.66 free modules (2/3rds of a basic module) This means that in order for a basic light frame to equal a minmatar suit it needs to equip 5 modules, and in order for a basic light frame to equal an amarrian scout it only needs 2/3rds of a basic cardiac regulator. Please make equalize these bonuses. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:24:00 - [2] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Minmatar has 4 proto modules in built? What? So there's the codebreaker... And...? The knife damage? I suppose you're comparing that to sidearm damage amps. You know a 25% sidearm damage increase would be worth a hell of a lot more than a 25% knife bonus? Although I do agree with you, the Amarr bonus is meh. +30% hacking speed over the other suits (forgott that hidden +5% hackign speed bonus did you? Breaks down to + 3 complex damage mods (3 cmplx dmg mods would be 24.4% dmg) and 1 cmpl hacking module and 1 standard module. I do understand a sidearm dmg increase would make more sense, not only from a RP perspective (nova knives are a caldari weapon) but usefullness too. Doesn't change the fact that it is 3 free damage mods. Just like how the current amarr bonus only works for scrambler and laser, just means you have to choose to use the bonus. It doesn't make it any less effective though. TheD1CK wrote: u say minmatar has 4 free modules.... hacking/novaknife dmg bonuses are what you mean So we get put inside everyones optimal range to perform our role making it the toughest scout role to play... and QQing that there is free modules when a bonus to NK is not a module is a little bit naive ... I keep seeing threads discrediting the Amarr Scout.. Yet chances are it will have the best base stats of all scouts As every other Amarr suit has better stats than the racial variants... A bonus of stamina combined with 4L slots can make this a very good fitting for a hit and run tactic and keeping enemies at range No, the amarr suit has BALANCED STATS. It walks slower, sprints slower, strafes slower, jumps lower, and for the first 30 seconds of it will lag behind everyone else. For this is gets 30 more HP and a little more stamina/recovery. Yes the minmatar has 5 FREE modules. It is so incredbily simple to understand. Take a basic light minmatar frame, you need to add 5 modules to get the scout. Now take a basic light amarr frame, you need to add 2/3rds of a basic module to get the scout. This is not in any way shape or form balanced. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:28:00 - [3] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: The math is all wrong. You cant count like that. As if all modules were equal. for example: when was the last time you saw someone equip a shield recharger? It's misleading to say that min gets 4 free modules - it trully gets only one (hacking module at complex) and, if you will, proto knive efficiency with advanced knives. So, just like how you would absolutely fit a amarr assault with a laser weapon, you would absolutely fit the minnie scout with nova knives. By doing so, you just got 3 free complex damage modules. The minmatar suit gets 25% bonus to hacking speed (5%/level) and then it gets an additional 5% bonus built-in to the suit above what the other suits get. This additional 5% does not suffer from stacking penalties, so it is worth very nearly an extra basic hacking mod. Now you have 1 cmplx and 1 basic hacking mod. IF you do the complicated math of 3+1+1 thats 5. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:30:00 - [4] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: They aren't MEANT to be equal. Each race has different strengths and weaknesses. The Amarr, for example, are aimed more towards heavies. Scouts are more in the Gallente style doctrine. Also, please don't make the mistake that bonuses are equivalent to modules. Bonuses are there to help you see what the intended use of a suit is and to specialise it to that role. Just like they are with ships in eve. The whole point is that you need a range of suits, fits and tactics to be most effective on the battlefield. BONUSES ARE EXACTLY EQUIVALENT TO MODULES IN THIS CASE. Ask yourself, can you duplicate the bonus effect? How can you do that? Oh right, use a module... is there a module that can have the same exact effect? Yes, wow look at that, we can equate them directly. Since we can, as shown, equate these bonuses with modules, we can therefor also state that the minmatar suit has 5 free modules worth of bonus, and the amarr has 1. This is not equality, and there should be. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:36:00 - [5] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: I agree that trying to compaire a sidearm damage bonus amp and the knife skill is just silly, knives are very nich Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Sidearm damage mods effect a lot more than just knives. Your analogy is flawed Korvin Lomont wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Right now the 1.8 scouts have a seriously skewed bonus structure. When taking into account the bonuses and translating them into effective modules, you come up with. Minmatar bonuses = 5 free modules (4 proto type and 1 basic) Gallente bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr bonuses = 0.66 free modules (2/3rds of a basic module) This means that in order for a basic light frame to equal a minmatar suit it needs to equip 5 modules, and in order for a basic light frame to equal an amarrian scout it only needs 2/3rds of a basic cardiac regulator. Please make equalize these bonuses. Technically all suits get comparable boni. Two stats are increased by 5%, the main problem I see is there is a module that do the same just with four times the power. So maybe the best would be to rethink the stamina boni at a whole. Regarding the module count I have to disagree to some extend. First the gallente gets "only" one complex and one basic module from skill boni (the armor repair is built in the suit and the amarr scout get practically a free adv ferroscale plate) The Minni NK bonus is limited to NK a complex sidearm damage mod would affect all sidearms. So this bonus is weaker than a complex siede arm dmg mod... Master Smurf wrote: We agree but you keep making your case all wrong. Stay away from the bias and stretching of the facts. I would possibly trade my hacking bonus and definitely trade my knife bonus for the stamina and regen. CPM, please help Amarr scout get a more decent bonus even though this one isnt all that bad. Give them stamina regen only and something else So what happens when you fit a nova knife (a caldari weapon btw) on a minnie scout? Do you not get 25% more damage (3 complex damage mods worth??) Oh you do..... I guess the suit is designed to use knives, like the current amarrian assault is meant to be used with lasers. Yes, the nova knife bonus is worth 3 damage mods, it is up to you to use that bonus. Just like it is up to you to use that hacking bonus, or the amarrian commando laser bonus, or any of the commando bonuses, or about half of the bonuses to the suits in the game. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 363	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:43:00 - [6] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: They aren't MEANT to be equal. Each race has different strengths and weaknesses. The Amarr, for example, are aimed more towards heavies. Scouts are more in the Gallente style doctrine. Also, please don't make the mistake that bonuses are equivalent to modules. Bonuses are there to help you see what the intended use of a suit is and to specialise it to that role. Just like they are with ships in eve. The whole point is that you need a range of suits, fits and tactics to be most effective on the battlefield. BONUSES ARE EXACTLY EQUIVALENT TO MODULES IN THIS CASE. Ask yourself, can you duplicate the bonus effect? How can you do that? Oh right, use a module... is there a module that can have the same exact effect? Yes, wow look at that, we can equate them directly. Since we can, as shown, equate these bonuses with modules, we can therefor also state that the minmatar suit has 5 free modules worth of bonus, and the amarr has 1. This is not equality, and there should be. Apples and Oranges are both Fruit, would you look at that. The knife skill bonus is not compairable to ANY modual, because if there was a modual that only effected knives it would likely be allot more potent than the sidearm amp bonus. Just like in eve, if you refuse to use the suit as it was design to be used, then you are just an idiot. So what you are saying is that this bonus is worth less because it only applies to one module? Well then you would of course have no problem with giving the amarr scout a 25% bonus to scrambler pistols because it is only one module right? Yeah I thought so........ Your logic doesn't work here, because there is no logic in it. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 365	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:48:00 - [7] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Well then Magnus - just use the bonus you got Oh wait you will - even if you tried not to you couldnt because it is applicable in all situations - As pointed out by Cyrius days ago. As I said, we agree and would hope you get something more to your liking but when you make some of these arguments its hard to stand with you. No, as has been pointed out in the past plenty of times, the stamina bonus is worthless in it's current state. It is very underpowered: other suits get at least 1 complex module worth of bonus from 1 bonus, and at least another basic from another bonus. The amarrian bonus is not even worth one basic module. Additional stamina and recovery is only useful after you have would have already run out, so only in that limited circumstance would it be useful. It will not help with jumping (because that is percentage based, not stamina based), and it will not help in the first 21 seconds of sprinting. IT is also a situational bonus, JUST LIKE THEY ALL ARE. Doesn't change the fact that minmatar get 5 free modules and amarr barely get 1. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 365	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:49:00 - [8] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: They aren't MEANT to be equal. Each race has different strengths and weaknesses. The Amarr, for example, are aimed more towards heavies. Scouts are more in the Gallente style doctrine. Also, please don't make the mistake that bonuses are equivalent to modules. Bonuses are there to help you see what the intended use of a suit is and to specialise it to that role. Just like they are with ships in eve. The whole point is that you need a range of suits, fits and tactics to be most effective on the battlefield. Wow, that was almost pure bunk! Actually, that comes from seven years playing on and off in eve, you notice little things like certain hulls being given bonuses to certain systems to make it more effective in one role than it is in another. And that hulls from different races specialise in different types of modules. I have been playing eve for just as long, if not longer, than you. Guess what is common in eve? Bonus equality. All ship bonuses across a typical class are roughly equal in related module effectiveness. So what were you saying? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 366	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:34:00 - [9] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Right now the 1.8 scouts have a seriously skewed bonus structure. When taking into account the bonuses and translating them into effective modules, you come up with. Minmatar bonuses = 5 free modules (4 proto type and 1 basic) Gallente bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr bonuses = 0.66 free modules (2/3rds of a basic module) This means that in order for a basic light frame to equal a minmatar suit it needs to equip 5 modules, and in order for a basic light frame to equal an amarrian scout it only needs 2/3rds of a basic cardiac regulator. Please make equalize these bonuses. Gallente: -5% profile, +5% scan range which = 1 prototype (25 CPU) and one basic (12 CPU) Caldari: -5% precision, +5% scan range which = 1 prototype and little more (25 CPU as well I believe) and one basic Minmatar: +5% hacking speed = 1 prototype and then some, expensive module forget by how much so yeah you need to fix some things and also include CPU/PG values So, gallente get a 3 hp/sec right? That is an advanced module isn't int? How about the minmatar, they get a free 5% hacking speed on top of the 5%/lvl hacking speed built it right? Due to the lack of stacking penalties, that is an additional basic hacking module. Not to mention 3x complex damage mods. Scan precision of the caldari (+25%) would require 1 complex and 1 basic module to achieve, along with the basic for scan range. Nocturnal Soul wrote: Just forget it, with how much repetitiveness has been going on across 3-4 threads with numbers, facts, and plain common sense being shown ( And honestly I know 90% of those people won't even touch the Amarr scout or else they'd change their opinion drastically ) these dip ***** won't understand so just wait and see what CCP does, who's side they choose is up to them. You are right, I am not sure why I am even trying here......... While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 366	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:42:00 - [10] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: TheD1CK wrote: u say minmatar has 4 free modules.... hacking/novaknife dmg bonuses are what you mean So we get put inside everyones optimal range to perform our role making it the toughest scout role to play... and QQing that there is free modules when a bonus to NK is not a module is a little bit naive ... I keep seeing threads discrediting the Amarr Scout.. Yet chances are it will have the best base stats of all scouts As every other Amarr suit has better stats than the racial variants... A bonus of stamina combined with 4L slots can make this a very good fitting for a hit and run tactic and keeping enemies at range It being the toughest scout doesn't make it the best scout. Besides which, the issue isn't the comparison of the post-bonus suits, but the incentive to get the specialisation at all. Extra stamina isn't going to be much use when the distance it can carry you is better covered in an LAV, so people may as well get the light frame. Also depends on what the basic light suit stats will be. If the basic light suit has 2 EQ slots and the same amount of slots overall, there will be next to no reason to skill into amarr scout. You will be able to fit 1x militia cardia on teh basic light frame and it will be just as good as the amarr scout, except cost about 1.5 mil less sp. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 366	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:47:00 - [11] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Right now the 1.8 scouts have a seriously skewed bonus structure. When taking into account the bonuses and translating them into effective modules, you come up with. Minmatar bonuses = 5 free modules (4 proto type and 1 basic) Gallente bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari bonuses = 3 free modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr bonuses = 0.66 free modules (2/3rds of a basic module) This means that in order for a basic light frame to equal a minmatar suit it needs to equip 5 modules, and in order for a basic light frame to equal an amarrian scout it only needs 2/3rds of a basic cardiac regulator. Please make equalize these bonuses. Gallente: -5% profile, +5% scan range which = 1 prototype (25 CPU) and one basic (12 CPU) Caldari: -5% precision, +5% scan range which = 1 prototype and little more (25 CPU as well I believe) and one basic Minmatar: +5% hacking speed = 1 prototype and then some, expensive module forget by how much so yeah you need to fix some things and also include CPU/PG values So, gallente get a 3 hp/sec right? That is an advanced module isn't int? How about the minmatar, they get a free 5% hacking speed on top of the 5%/lvl hacking speed built it right? Due to the lack of stacking penalties, that is an additional basic hacking module. Not to mention 3x complex damage mods. Scan precision of the caldari (+25%) would require 1 complex and 1 basic module to achieve, along with the basic for scan range. Those are innate suit specs not bonuses. They don't increase with level. All scouts have a 5% bonus to hacking speed why not include that or about the innate built in profile dampeners they all have or the innate shield extender and armor plating they have. minmatar scout has a 10% inate bonus to hacking, all the rest have 5. Gallente have a 3 hp/sec inate bonus, all the rest have 0. There are no other inate bonuses inherent in the caldari or amarr suits, therefore the inate bonuses must be accounted for when speaking about the relative balance of the suits. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 368	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:11:00 - [12] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: I believe Caldari has faster shield regen and shorter depleted shield delay. Also why didnt you answer Broonfondle's post? And since Ghost put forward a good bonus to apply to Ferroscale plates - If you guys agree on it, why dont you find out if possible to implement and rally around that being switched in instead of the current proposed bonus? Lets try to make progress and not just fight windmills. I didn't answer Broonfondle's post because even an idiot should be able to see it is just purely mindless drivel that anyone with half a brain should be able to summarily dismiss, but since you requested so... Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Caldari + Gallente scan distance only 1/2 of the passive skill upgrade per level Min hacking skill equal to hacking passive skill upgrade per level Amarr skill 5x more than the passive biotics skill upgrade per level Better analogy I can't believe how many times I am going to have to reply to either trolls or people I am suprised are capable of using keyboards. No it is a completely **** analogy. Skills effect those passive bonuses independent of the suits, so obviously these can be discounted when comparing ONLY THE SUITS. Now I wonder how we can gauge the difficulty on increasing the effect of these suit bonuses.... I just wish there was an item that we could maybe attach to these suits with comparible effects so that we could directly correlate the power of these skills..... While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 372	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:55:00 - [13] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: They aren't MEANT to be equal. Each race has different strengths and weaknesses. The Amarr, for example, are aimed more towards heavies. Scouts are more in the Gallente style doctrine. Also, please don't make the mistake that bonuses are equivalent to modules. Bonuses are there to help you see what the intended use of a suit is and to specialise it to that role. Just like they are with ships in eve. The whole point is that you need a range of suits, fits and tactics to be most effective on the battlefield. BONUSES ARE EXACTLY EQUIVALENT TO MODULES IN THIS CASE. Ask yourself, can you duplicate the bonus effect? How can you do that? Oh right, use a module... is there a module that can have the same exact effect? Yes, wow look at that, we can equate them directly. Since we can, as shown, equate these bonuses with modules, we can therefor also state that the minmatar suit has 5 free modules worth of bonus, and the amarr has 1. This is not equality, and there should be. In some cases the correlation can be done directly in others it can't. Show me the module that gives a damage bonus to nova knifes ONLY. It doesn't exist. While NKs are "cute" ("ahh look, he killed that guy with knifes, how cute") it is hardly a viable weapon when measured against the effectiveness of ANY other sidearm. And i dont know where in the hell you are coming up with six modules. In reality, the Min bonus is worth one complex code breaker and one forth (soon to be one seventh) of three complex damage modifiers., for the worse sidearm in the game none-the-less. The Gallente get a complex dampener and a basic range amp. The Caldari get slightly more than a complex precision enhancer and a basic range amp. Now the Amarr bonus truly is a problem, because it doesn't even equal a basic module. So, while I do think that the Amarr bonus does need a little extra something to go along with it, I'm not feeling you no the other scout. How you can type is beyond me, since you obviously can't read. Minmatar scout is design for knives, and in its role it has the equvelent of 3 complex damage mods. Minmatar get +5% per lelve to hacking (making one complex code breaker) and then they get an extra 10% hacking bonus (5% more than the rest of the scouts), making it almost as good as another basic code breaker (no stacking penalties. Making 5 modules, NOT 6, if you knew how to read you would have read all of the already. Gallente also get 3 hp/sec armor rep, making an advanced module in addition to the complex and basic ones. caldari get very close to a complex and an basic with stacking penalties for precision, then a basic for range. Amarr get less than a basic. Amarr nedd ALOT more than a little. Minmatar have WAY TOO MUCH. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 377	Posted - 2014.01.21 03:05:00 - [14] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Ah, you want to compare the suit stats as well. Well you forgot to mention a few things then: Amarr: 75 (with skills) eHP advantage over Minmatar, 37.5 eHP advantage over Gal/Cal Amarr: [once equalized - roughly 5 to 1 scale CPU to PG respectively]: 14 more CPU/PG, in favor of PG, over the Minmatar Amarr: 15 more stamina and 5 more regen over Minmatar, 25 and 10 over Gal/Cal Did you forget about these, or did they just not fit into your world view? been done 4-5 times already. Amarr get more stamina, recovery and 30 more EHP, we sacrifice movement speed, strafing ability, jumping abilty and sprinting for this advantage. Minmatar get more stamina, more recovery, more movement speed, more strafing, higher jumping, and faster sprinting for the cost of 30 hp. Amarr have the 2nd lowest cpu and the second highers PG (amarr are almost always PG limited) Minmatar get the higher CPU and the lowest PG (Minmatar are almost always CPU limited) This is of course in addition to the 5 free modules minmatar get through suit bonuses. I guss I should have mentioned it because in the end the minmatar are looking more and more OP overall. Toby Flenderson wrote: True Adamance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Minmatar has 4 proto modules in built? What? So there's the codebreaker... And...? The knife damage? I suppose you're comparing that to sidearm damage amps. You know a 25% sidearm damage increase would be worth a hell of a lot more than a 25% knife bonus? Although I do agree with you, the Amarr bonus is meh. Yeah but now think about it like this and you see how underwhelming that is. Amarr scout is the slowest scout. Scouts can run for X seconds on their base stamina. The Amarr scouts bonus is entirely negated until the scouts his Y threshold where other scouts stamina runs out, and the Amarr scout can keep going. Jumping/dodging is important too. Slap on another complex regulator and this thing will rarely ever run out of stamina and when it does, it will get it back in seconds. Jumping takes percentages of your stamina, not amounts, increased stamina does nothing for that. Both dodging and ducking can only be helped through higher movement speed, a stat that amarr is dead last in. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 378	Posted - 2014.01.21 03:09:00 - [15] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: It minmatar maintains the bonus and all other suits get the standard scout bonus all suits would have 0.05% hack bonus. Ill state it again without the bonuses applied amarr pulls ahead in terms of built in modules x meta score with gallente being the worst but most spread out. No it doesn't, you have shown no proof to back up this claim... ever. You are part of the CPM that allowed the insanely, horibly balanced commando suit, flaylock/flaylock nerf, and now the vehicle debacle. You really need to just STFU about balance, your track record shows you have no idea about it. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Minmatar has 4 proto modules in built? What? So there's the codebreaker... And...? The knife damage? I suppose you're comparing that to sidearm damage amps. You know a 25% sidearm damage increase would be worth a hell of a lot more than a 25% knife bonus? Although I do agree with you, the Amarr bonus is meh. Agreed. If you want to compare the knife damage to modules, you have to divide the 25% bonus by total number of sidearms (next patch-7) this comes out to be about 3.57, or slightly more than a MLT damage mod. Therefore, the OP's point is nullified. Also, the knife is the most situational weapon in the game, making it extremely difficult for anyone except pro ninjas to put the bonus to use No I really don't. All weapons are situational, such as the laser weapons for amarr. Hey what was considered the best amarr bonus again? Oh right, the 5% heat reduction that only mattered to laser weapons before... Oh nova knives are great, and they will become awesome with the cloaking device, and they will be completely OP with the 3 free complex damage mods that the minmatar scout gets. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 378	Posted - 2014.01.21 03:37:00 - [16] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Your regard for the effectiveness/utility of NKs compared to other sidearms is what is out of balance here and needs to be equalized. Nobody is saying that the Amarr bonus is "balanced", what we are saying is that your analysis of the information is a terrible shambles. Thankfully you are not a developer and are quite outnumbered by more reasonable voices on this forum, so I have quite high hopes that the suit in question will receive a truly "balanced" rework. {edit>>> clarical error in the first sentence. Pick an arguement and stick with it, first it is that amarr suits have inherent bonus that rock the house, of course that was proven to be horribly inaccurate. Next it is that nova knives suck? So why would you even want that bonus anyway then? Seriously, if nova knives are so horrible, why is there not a HUGE stink about getting that bonus changed? IS it because nova knives are actually not bad as it is now, and when cloaking hits nova knives will become THE prefered method of killing. You will be able to kill with little to no noise, without being seen... of course nova knives go with cloaking like bread and butter. No matter how you slice it, getting 3 free complex damage mods to ANY weapon is OP as hell. The people defending the minmatar bonuses, or deriding the amarrian plight here, are the same FoTM faggots you find every time something is/willl-be overpowered. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 379	Posted - 2014.01.21 04:03:00 - [17] - Quote Brokerib wrote: A couple of things. One. Stop fighting the scout community. If you weren't so intractable in your views and vitriolic in your posts, you'd notice that the majority of scouts support a change to the Amarr bonus, they just don't necessarily support your argument. I fully support changes in the Amarr bonus, but your approach to pushing for it has been terrible. Additionally, you're seriously underestimating the benefits of an inherent max stamina and stamina regen boost in a class that is entirely reliant on mobility for survival. I'd happily swap the Minmatar hacking bonus for it. Two. Stop complaining about other scout suits. The suits are not the same and selectively comparing yourself to everyone else and complaining that you don't have enough does a disservice to both you, and scouts in general. The Amarr scout should be balanced to support a unique and viable playstyle, not to make them the equivalent of everything else, otherwise you'll only represent a racial variant with no real purpose. Three. people calling for the nerf of other scouts to meet the arbitrary equivalency you're demanding is astoundingly short sighted. Your main concern should be for scouts, as a class, to be viable against medium and heavy frames, not trying to damage other variations within your class. Four. Focus on solutions. Most of the suggestions that are being put up just make you replicate another suit poorly, or show a poor understanding of the mechanics of the scout. Stop arguing and start think about what would work. Five. If the Nova Knife bonus is so awesome, then I'm happy to support the Amarr suit getting the same bonus in addition to the existing max stamina and stam regen bonus. Enjoy your 'three complex damage mods' . Stop focusing on how everyone else has it better than you and try putting forward some reasoned and reasonable suggestions instead. Consensus amongst the community is what shifted the position of CCP in relation to the 1.8 changes. Try working towards that instead of fighting everyone for not instantly and wholeheartedly agreeing with everything you say. Edited to remove duplication. 1) I am asking for equality in boost, not equality in function or purpose. This is a simple thing, a basic thing I am asking for. I am asking that all suits be created with an equal baseline, and under equal conditions. Apparently this is just WAY TO MUCH to ask for from the FotM crowd on these forums. Even you are dumb enough to suggest (multiple times in fact) that equality in boosts means homogenizing the suits. 2)The only suit I have a huge problem with is the minmatar, and that is because it is HILARIOUSLY OP. Why is EVERYONE not pointing out the fact that this suit is getting insane bonuses???? This suit is going to get 35% bonus to hacking speed (all others will be 5%) and 25% damage bonus?? I feel like I must be in some kind of crazy house that this isn't a HUGE DEAL. Let me put it to you this way, the minmatar scout will be able to hack an objective in 5.85 seconds WITHOUT any modules fitted, the other scouts (the next fastest) will be 8.55 seconds. Oh and on top of this, every time the minmatar suit hits R1, it will be able to do 1,150 damage WITHOUT damage mods. Thats right, the minnie scout with no damage mods will do the same amount of damage as the plasma cannon. 3) I am sick of having to correct the same ******** crap over and over and over again. Like people saying that 5% stamina /lvl is op (lol) or how minnies aren't getting the equivalent of 5 free mods, or if you can believe this, claiming that the natural attributes of amarrian suits are a bonus by themselves.... While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 379	Posted - 2014.01.21 04:07:00 - [18] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Your regard for the effectiveness/utility of NKs compared to other sidearms is what is out of balance here and needs to be equalized. Nobody is saying that the Amarr bonus is "balanced", what we are saying is that your analysis of the information is a terrible shambles. Thankfully you are not a developer and are quite outnumbered by more reasonable voices on this forum, so I have quite high hopes that the suit in question will receive a truly "balanced" rework. {edit>>> clarical error in the first sentence. Pick an arguement and stick with it, first it is that amarr suits have inherent bonus that rock the house, of course that was proven to be horribly inaccurate. Next it is that nova knives suck? So why would you even want that bonus anyway then? Seriously, if nova knives are so horrible, why is there not a HUGE stink about getting that bonus changed? Dude, WTF are you talking about. My argument has not changed at all. Why don't you try a little reading comprehension. The simple fact that you are making yourself look more and more like a complete @$$ is more than enough to convince me that it is not at all necessary to argue with you anymore. I'll just let you keep digging yourself into an ever larger hole. shakes his head moron! Oh sorry I am getting a bit pissed explaining the same thing over and over because apparently math and analytic skills are a rare commodity. It was OBVIOUS that the tank boost combined with neutering AV in this game was going to produce an imbalance like we have now, but I figured that common sense would prevail. It didn't, people on these forums thought it wasn't going to be enough! I don't want to see the same mistake made again. Making one suit able to cloak, able to do well over 1200 damage in one button push, and able to hack in under 6 seconds without mods, is a recipe for FotM OP suit. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 379	Posted - 2014.01.21 04:52:00 - [19] - Quote Jotun Izalaru wrote: You mean, every time the Minmatar scout successfully uses stealth to approach an opponent, holds R1 for a moment, and the opponent doesn't move literally at all (especially backpedalling) then he gets to do 1150 damage. Don't forget the little details like "NK's are complete garbage unless the stars align through sheer willpower on the Scout's part." Is all this sneaking happening while cloaked or not? Is this unusable weapon really unusable when the opponent has no idea your even there? Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I honestly am not understanding what you are attempting to convey with this line. If you are referring to the current state of a perceived "imbalance" with vehicles, had you paid attention to what the DEVs had said prior to the changes to vehicles in 1.7, you would now that the DEVs clearly stated tha the 1.7 changes were just the "first" necessary step in a complete vehicle rebalance, and tha we, as a community, would more than likely not enjoy this first round of the rebalance, for the majority. This was done in order to gather adequate information necessary to creat a truly balanced final product - one of the most major things being price (more tanks on the field equals more data to mine). You want to worry about something you should be worrying about someone like me who already know how to use the Gal scout. Why don't you try propose a change to this suit and stick it in your OP. I honestly don't know if ulyou have yet proposed a change, because I got tired of reading your drivel on the first page. Oh I am going to need a source for your CCP (you know, that they knew it was going to be a quagmire) stuff there. It seems kind of odd that this was said at some point, but has never once been brought up during all of the vehicle bitching that has been going on. Minmatar- +2% sidearm damage per lvl (comes out to 1 free complex dmg mod) +3% hacking speed per lvl (comes out to an advance dmod) (the inate +5% hacking speed bonus then is the basic mod) Gallente: are fine, leave them alone Caldari: +5% dropsuit scan rdius per lvl (unchanged, basic mod equivalent) + 7% scan precision per lvl (complex and adv) Amarr : + 20% stamina/stamina recovery per lvl (makes 1 complex module) ??? +17 armor HP/lvl (this would make 1 basic and 1 adv ferroscale) I have posted this a few times now. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 379	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:29:00 - [20] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Wow. You appear to have missed some of my post... 1) I'm not sure if you noticed, but I support the call for changes to the Amarr bonus. The problem is the method by which you're asking for it. The suits are not equal and cannot be directly compared through the prism of a single bonus. As mentioned in my original post, 'The Amarr scout should be balanced to support a unique and viable playstyle, not to make them the equivalent of everything else'. How you compare directly to other suits is not important, as long as you are viable, particularly against medium and heavy suits. Picking a point issue and discarding all other analysis because it doesn't agree with your pre-determined viewpoint is a poor substitute for a reasoned discourse. Oh, and just FYI, claiming that scouts are FOTM chasers is laughable at best. Maybe try that one after 1.8 has dropped. I claimed that the ones defending the OPness (such as yourself) of the minmatar suit are FotMers. You guys spot an OP thing (such as vehicles are now) and defend it as being balanced when of course it is no where near balanced, not even close. And of course we directly compare suits, this is because all of these suits have generalized roles and specific roles, and they should not SUCK in their generalized role, and they should of course have a useful specialized role. You are the one who claims I am picking one specific point issue and discarding the rest. Here is a simple, easy to understand point i have made that is irrefutable. 25% damage bonus to nova knives is worth 3 complex modules. It is you and your buddies who can not understand that this is not debatable. Brokerib wrote: 2) As I said, take my hacking bonus, it's situationally useful and does not compare to the generalist bonuses that the Amarr, Gal and Cal suits receive. I'd much prefer the max stamina increase and regen bonus. Bonuses that are applicable in specific situations are not OP, unless you think that hacking or the ability to kill someone from within 2m is going to turn the tide of battle. Uhh.... stamina and regen are the definition of situational, so is the dampner bonus. At anytime from full stamina to time +30seconds, the stamina bonus is 100% useless. The stamina bonus is 100% useless for jumping and melee'ing. So once again, this bonus is ONLY useful when you are sprinting, and that is ONLY when you would not have reached your destination or required a smidge more stamina to begin with... both HIGHLY situational occurrences. Brokerib wrote: Let me fix that for you: .... Please don't.... for one, of course we compare at full skills, that is what you balance around. If you do not take full skills into account you get situations like the old flaylock that becomes beastly when skilled, but fine when not. OH and yes, when the minnie scout cloaks and sneaks up behind... well anyone, and has a 0.8s window of opportunity, it will OHKO just about every suit in the game.... Brokerib wrote: 3) I'm going to answer this in a couple of parts because you cover alot of crazy here. Like people saying that 5% stamina /lvl is op (lol) It isn't, and I didn't. 5% a level is fine, as a secondary bonus. Feel free to make a recommendation on what would make a good primary bonus, instead of fighting everyone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say. or how minnies aren't getting the equivalent of 5 free mods This is pure fallacy and is one of the reasons people are disagreeing with you. The Nova Knife bonus in no way equates to 3 complex mods. As I mentioned, I'd be happy to support this bonus being applied to the Amarr scout so you can experience it in all it's glory. or if you can believe this, claiming that the natural attributes of amarrian suits are a bonus by themselves Your hypocrisy in this statement on natural attributes is shown by your posting for section 2, where you, once again, reference the natural attributes of the Minmatar scout to inflate figures and reinforce your argument Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This suit is going to get 35% bonus to hacking speed (all others will be 5%) and 25% damage bonus?? Have it one way or another, but if you're going to bring the natural attributes of other suits into the argument, then you can't really complain about it. A) 5% is less than that of a militia mod, if you were to say that the bonus should be equivelent to that of a miltia mod I might agree with you. B) I don't care if you don't like it, it is thr truth. You get a 25% bonus to hacking, a 5% (5% more than any other scout for no reason) bonus to hacking, and a 25% bonus to damage. That shakes out to be 5 modules worth of bonuses. Just because you and others like you want to deny it doesn't make it any less true. Just like how amarr assault needed to fit laser weapons, so to must the minmatar fit caldari weapons. C)I am having it one way. The addiotional 5% hacking above and beyond what is given across the suits is an addiotnal hidden bonus. In all other suits the balance was maintained without this additional 5% hacking speed or 3 hp/sec, therefore these need to be accounted for. The attributes of the suits have and were completely balanced outside of these seemingly random additions. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

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