DUST Search - Why is TTK a problem?

Fire of Prometheus wrote:

Stupid Blueberry wrote:

Fire of Prometheus wrote:

Stupid Blueberry wrote:

Fire of Prometheus wrote:

Reason #1:

Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?"

Is this really what you guys believe? Lol.

Who me? Yeah I do, but I also smart enough to recognize if it was my fault I was killed by a MLT suit.

If he killed me before I could turn around, and he was using a MLT ar at 60m, then something is clearly wrong.

Now if it was face to face and he beat me, we both saw each other at the same time, both started shooting at the same time and he walked away, then it was my fault.

The situation you're describing is completely impossible unless they have Proficiency V or so in AR and you don't know how to tank your suit.

Exactly!!!!!! Why should a MLT suit kill my decked out proto suit if he has 0 sp and 0 time invested and I have 14mil sp and countless hours invested, in a 1 v 1 fight.

I do think the starter fits should be competitive and not $#!+ but they shouldn't demolish proto suits faster than a proto suit can demolish a proto suit.

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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 321	Posted - 2014.01.16 21:59:00 - [1] - Quote Disclaimer: I know I will be talking about another game and that example game =/= DUST. However, I really am curious. I have seen a lot of messages about increasing the amount of time it takes to kill someone (TTK), whether by removing proficiency, removing damage mods, or changing how skills work with weapons (I actually like the idea CCP has to make Weapon Proficiency only give a boost to either Armor or Shield damage based off what the weapon is meant to kill but mostly because of the uniqueness). I don't understand why this needs to be changed. In Modern Warfare 2 (the last COD game I played), you kill people with 3 bullets with the SCAR Assault Rifle. With Stopping Power (a Perk you get at level 1), it increases your damage to the point that the SCAR kills in 2 bullets. They also have decent range with lower dispersion. Basically, you have a very popular franchise that has almost instant death from being attacked. Being a good player means generally having good routes of the map by which you run around and kill people, having quick reactions, 'game sense', and being decent at pulling off shots. So why is it so different in DUST that killing people quickly and dying quickly is a problem? Honest question. Be well. -Joseph
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2021	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:02:00 - [2] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Disclaimer: I know I will be talking about another game and that example game =/= DUST. However, I really am curious. I have seen a lot of messages about increasing the amount of time it takes to kill someone (TTK), whether by removing proficiency, removing damage mods, or changing how skills work with weapons (I actually like the idea CCP has to make Weapon Proficiency only give a boost to either Armor or Shield damage based off what the weapon is meant to kill but mostly because of the uniqueness). I don't understand why this needs to be changed. In Modern Warfare 2 (the last COD game I played), you kill people with 3 bullets with the SCAR Assault Rifle. With Stopping Power (a Perk you get at level 1), it increases your damage to the point that the SCAR kills in 2 bullets. They also have decent range with lower dispersion. Basically, you have a very popular franchise that has almost instant death from being attacked. Being a good player means generally having good routes of the map by which you run around and kill people, having quick reactions, 'game sense', and being decent at pulling off shots. So why is it so different in DUST that killing people quickly and dying quickly is a problem? Honest question. Be well. -Joseph DUST isn't CoD, longer TTK = Fittings matter more= Aiming and Strafing Matters more A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Mithridates VI Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2905	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:04:00 - [3] - Quote One reason is that if every gun can kill in mere moments, the customisation that DUST promotes becomes meaningless. The difference between firing at shield or armor is minimal, and long-range rapid-fire weapons are king because their damage penalty at close range is imperceptible when every gun melts a dropsuit instantly. DUST could keep its low time to kill and make being a good player mean generally having good routes of the map by which you run around and kill people, having quick reactions, 'game sense', and being decent at pulling off shots. It totally could. But the deep customisation options would then be purely cosmetic and that doesn't seem to the the intended direction for this game's design. Please refrain from utilizing such inflammatory sarcasm in the future. GÇö CCP Eterne
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 418	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:05:00 - [4] - Quote It's not. If Ttk was really so low, scouts wouldn't be considered to be so under powered and nobody would stack damage mods or shield/armor. As it is, adding health still makes a noticeable impact in your survivability and adding damage does the same for lethality. If ttk was as bad as folks say these things would be meaningless. Increasing ttk even further would increase stomps, and make scouts even more under powered. Scouts right now can hit and run, higher ttk would eliminate that ability. The same ability to kill quickly and escape allows decent folks to still perform well during stomps. Otherwise the numbers game would be too much for them. Maybe ttk could stand to be increased a tiny bit. But you have to be careful because doing so increases the gap between scouts and everyone else and also between tiers of suits.
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 711	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:05:00 - [5] - Quote I think people already die fast enough in this game. Signatures? Since when?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1520	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:08:00 - [6] - Quote Since you aren't trolling I will not be an ass. The simple answer is that in DUST the way you fit your dropsuits is supposed to matter and have an actual effect on the overall outcome of the battle. Unfortunately the TTK problem means that regardless of what you do the difference between a paper tanked assault and a bricktanked heavy is about .5 seconds for killing. TTK needs to be long enough that your decisions in fitting, as well as the quality of your gear that you choose to deploy matter. right now, an assault rifle, stacked damage mods in high and a good set of reflexes are all you need. Nothing else really affects the game, to the point where my prototype fatsuits (which make brick logis look paper tanked) has no functional defense value higher than the paper tanked assault in the face of oncoming fire because the differentiation between fits isn't enough to matter. In DUST your decisions, no matter how minor are supposed to matter. Unfortunately in the current state of the game you might as well make the decision to armor yourself in paper mache. it's about as effective.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1580	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:08:00 - [7] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Disclaimer: I know I will be talking about another game and that example game =/= DUST. However, I really am curious. I have seen a lot of messages about increasing the amount of time it takes to kill someone (TTK), whether by removing proficiency, removing damage mods, or changing how skills work with weapons (I actually like the idea CCP has to make Weapon Proficiency only give a boost to either Armor or Shield damage based off what the weapon is meant to kill but mostly because of the uniqueness). I don't understand why this needs to be changed. In Modern Warfare 2 (the last COD game I played), you kill people with 3 bullets with the SCAR Assault Rifle. With Stopping Power (a Perk you get at level 1), it increases your damage to the point that the SCAR kills in 2 bullets. They also have decent range with lower dispersion. Basically, you have a very popular franchise that has almost instant death from being attacked. Being a good player means generally having good routes of the map by which you run around and kill people, having quick reactions, 'game sense', and being decent at pulling off shots. So why is it so different in DUST that killing people quickly and dying quickly is a problem? Honest question. Be well. -Joseph Because ISK.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 282	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:10:00 - [8] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Disclaimer: I know I will be talking about another game and that example game =/= DUST. However, I really am curious. I have seen a lot of messages about increasing the amount of time it takes to kill someone (TTK), whether by removing proficiency, removing damage mods, or changing how skills work with weapons (I actually like the idea CCP has to make Weapon Proficiency only give a boost to either Armor or Shield damage based off what the weapon is meant to kill but mostly because of the uniqueness). I don't understand why this needs to be changed. In Modern Warfare 2 (the last COD game I played), you kill people with 3 bullets with the SCAR Assault Rifle. With Stopping Power (a Perk you get at level 1), it increases your damage to the point that the SCAR kills in 2 bullets. They also have decent range with lower dispersion. Basically, you have a very popular franchise that has almost instant death from being attacked. Being a good player means generally having good routes of the map by which you run around and kill people, having quick reactions, 'game sense', and being decent at pulling off shots. So why is it so different in DUST that killing people quickly and dying quickly is a problem? Honest question. Be well. -Joseph Because COD is bad game. Because CoD don't have the notion of "fitting" and finally becauese COD don't have passive skills. don't Lose ISK each times you die and finally COD is a Casual FPS. Dust is a RPG/FPS. What he point about months to fit something if finally everyone kill in some bullet and die in 10-15 bullet ?
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 152	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:13:00 - [9] - Quote That and the amount of armour suits represent. Eve you have shield, armour and the internal structure. Given Dust has shield, armour no structure. So one can assume that outside a drop suit all the weapons would one shot you. Your health is so insignificant that its less then a bar. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Centurion mkII Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 189	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:14:00 - [10] - Quote Fitting diversity.

Cosgar ParagonX 9103	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:40:00 - [11] - Quote You don't pay for your loadout in CoD. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 3004	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:44:00 - [12] - Quote Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando? Forum warrior 3
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5189	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:48:00 - [13] - Quote Mithridates VI wrote: One reason is that if every gun can kill in mere moments, the customisation that DUST promotes becomes meaningless. The difference between firing at shield or armor is minimal, and long-range rapid-fire weapons are king because their damage penalty at close range is imperceptible when every gun melts a dropsuit instantly. DUST could keep its low time to kill and make being a good player mean generally having good routes of the map by which you run around and kill people, having quick reactions, 'game sense', and being decent at pulling off shots. It totally could. But the deep customisation options would then be purely cosmetic and that doesn't seem to the the intended direction for this game's design. Cosgar wrote: You don't pay for your loadout in CoD. These two posts sum up my thoughts. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 152	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:48:00 - [14] - Quote But if you do want to get closer to a COD three shot kill you can play MLT tanks with railguns :D Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 71	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:49:00 - [15] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 322	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:50:00 - [16] - Quote Fair enough. Thanks for all the information. I wasn't really aware of why people wanted to changed TTK, and thus why I made the post. I wasn't lobbying one way or another. I also wasn't aware that with damage mods you got to a point that everything died in a short period of time. Be well. -Joseph
Boot Booter Omega Elite Mercs INC. 230	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:50:00 - [17] - Quote Centurion mkII wrote: Fitting diversity. Yup. At the moment everything is practically the same; shield, armor, high HP, low HP.. Etc. It all doesn't really make a difference. Having low ttk defeats the purpose of having unique fits, a core concept and attraction of dust. Not to mention it's more fun with high ttk. People who have been around a while remember when it actually felt rewarding to take down a proto. It played nicely into that old risk/reward concept while currently it feels more like risk/risk.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 3005	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:54:00 - [18] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. Who me? Yeah I do, but I also smart enough to recognize if it was my fault I was killed by a MLT suit. If he killed me before I could turn around, and he was using a MLT ar at 60m, then something is clearly wrong. Now if it was face to face and he beat me, we both saw each other at the same time, both started shooting at the same time and he walked away, then it was my fault. Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando? Forum warrior 3
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 551	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:55:00 - [19] - Quote Its not a problem. high SP players are going down faster when facing new players and this is important to keeping the new players around. Right now its a game of skill versus 'whoever has the best gear wins' and thats a good thing. longtime players are seeing their KDRs drop and their complaining.
hidden noob Algintal Core Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:55:00 - [20] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. oh your the dude i keep hearing about.

Cosgar ParagonX 9106	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:56:00 - [21] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. I don't personally believe this is how it should be in Dust, but this does run true in any MMORPG setting. One thing to consider though is if your starter gear that you get for free or dirt cheap is so good, why skill up to anything better? I believe MLT gear needs to be competitive, but lack the finesse you would get from making your own fits. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 71	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:58:00 - [22] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. Who me? Yeah I do, but I also smart enough to recognize if it was my fault I was killed by a MLT suit. If he killed me before I could turn around, and he was using a MLT ar at 60m, then something is clearly wrong. Now if it was face to face and he beat me, we both saw each other at the same time, both started shooting at the same time and he walked away, then it was my fault. The situation you're describing is completely impossible unless they have Proficiency V or so in AR and you don't know how to tank your suit.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 282	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:59:00 - [23] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: That and the amount of armour suits represent. Eve you have shield, armour and the internal structure. Given Dust has shield, armour no structure. So one can assume that outside a drop suit all the weapons would one shot you. Your health is so insignificant that its less then a bar. In fact all the dropsuits have hidden structure Hp. The "Body hp". It's only 10hp. And that's why you can survie with 0/00 hp while you had something like 5 hp left that's not always decimal. This is these hidden 10hp. But careful they never get repaired.
GRIM GEAR The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 160	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:00:00 - [24] - Quote Well if CCP increases the time to kill there's nothing stopping you from running around in a light frame or scout suit with under 300 entire hit points. That goes to everyone......... It's a bird! No it's a plane! Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!
Jaed D'jaegweir 0	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:01:00 - [25] - Quote if everyone has the ability to use Armor / Shields / Suits and not get killed what is the purpose of war? to destroy the machines? "We do not live in a world of reality. We live in a world of perceptions." -Gerald Simmons
Mithridates VI Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2911	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:02:00 - [26] - Quote Jaed D'jaegweir wrote: if everyone has the ability to use Armor / Shields / Suits and not get killed what is the purpose of war? to destroy the machines? wat Please refrain from utilizing such inflammatory sarcasm in the future. GÇö CCP Eterne
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 137	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:03:00 - [27] - Quote Longer TTK is important to make strategy in fitting matter. The best way in my mind to go about it is a proportional slight buff to EHP and slight nerf to weapon DPS across the board. And I hate the idea of change Proficiency skills to only effect damage against Shields or Armor. That would be one more way that DUST would be different than EVE and I believe that DUST needs to be more like EVE to be successful. Ideally, people should think "Holy cow, this is EVE, just as a FPS!" DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 3005	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:04:00 - [28] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. Who me? Yeah I do, but I also smart enough to recognize if it was my fault I was killed by a MLT suit. If he killed me before I could turn around, and he was using a MLT ar at 60m, then something is clearly wrong. Now if it was face to face and he beat me, we both saw each other at the same time, both started shooting at the same time and he walked away, then it was my fault. The situation you're describing is completely impossible unless they have Proficiency V or so in AR and you don't know how to tank your suit. Exactly!!!!!! Why should a MLT suit kill my decked out proto suit if he has 0 sp and 0 time invested and I have 14mil sp and countless hours invested, in a 1 v 1 fight. I do think the starter fits should be competitive and not $#!+ but they shouldn't demolish proto suits faster than a proto suit can demolish a proto suit. Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando? Forum warrior 3
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 71	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:06:00 - [29] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. Who me? Yeah I do, but I also smart enough to recognize if it was my fault I was killed by a MLT suit. If he killed me before I could turn around, and he was using a MLT ar at 60m, then something is clearly wrong. Now if it was face to face and he beat me, we both saw each other at the same time, both started shooting at the same time and he walked away, then it was my fault. The situation you're describing is completely impossible unless they have Proficiency V or so in AR and you don't know how to tank your suit. Exactly!!!!!! Why should a MLT suit kill my decked out proto suit if he has 0 sp and 0 time invested and I have 14mil sp and countless hours invested, in a 1 v 1 fight. I do think the starter fits should be competitive and not $#!+ but they shouldn't demolish proto suits faster than a proto suit can demolish a proto suit. Dude, what are you talking about? I think you're blowing this a bit out of proportion.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 3005	Posted - 2014.01.16 23:07:00 - [30] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Stupid Blueberry wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Reason #1: Our load outs actually cost us game money and are worth a lot more than a free load out in cod.....people have dumped literally millions of sp (and subsequently loads of time) into creating specific fits, so this leads to the question: "why should a MLT fit, kill just as efficiently and as effective as a fully decked out proto suit?" Is this really what you guys believe? Lol. I don't personally believe this is how it should be in Dust, but this does run true in any MMORPG setting. One thing to consider though is if your starter gear that you get for free or dirt cheap is so good, why skill up to anything better? I believe MLT gear needs to be competitive, but lack the finesse you would get from making your own fits. Hey blueberry, this is what I'm getting at ^ Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando? Forum warrior 3



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