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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1470	Posted - 2014.01.14 16:09:00 - [1] - Quote SCOPE This document will attempt to decrease the disparity of combat effectiveness between high SP characters and low SP characters through a concept known as GÇÿtiericideGÇÖ. CONCEPT Tiericide removes the increased benefit of high level modules by giving all modules the same benefit, regardless of tier. This means that a prototype module gives the same immediate benefit as a militia module. However, all modules have a negative effect which decreases as tier increases. For example, all armor plates would give the same amount of HP, but the Standard Plate would reduce speed by 7% and Prototype Plate would reduce speed by 3%. This gives higher tiered gear the same advantage as low tier gear, but less of a disadvantage. Additionally, modules within the same class would have benefits and disadvantages that complement each other. For example, Module 1 increases X and decreases Y, Module 2 increases Y and decreases Z, Module 3 increases Z and decreases X. Negative effects should never exceed the benefit another module provide, therefor a mix of modules will produce a net increase in all attributes. This also discourages large stacks of the same module type and encourages variety in fitting. Note that there are some modules which do not come with a downside and their effectiveness increases with tier. However these modules have reduced effectiveness compared to similar modules that include negative effects. (IGÇÖm very much open to suggestions of reasonable downsides to these particular modules). The tiericide system is designed to make Dust based more on player skill and teamwork and less on total SP. The concepts outlined below are my personal opinion and I am open to suggestions to improvement. I also am avoiding using absolute values as I feel it distracts from the concepts at hand. Reminder: Benefit is constant regardless of tier. Negative Effect decreases as tier increases. MODULES Shields Shield Extenders Benefit: Increased Shield HP Negative Effect: Increased Shield Recharge Delay Shield Regulator Benefit: Decreased Shield Recharge Delay Negative Effect: Decreased Shield Recharge Rate Shield Energizer Benefit: Increased Shield Recharge Rate Negative Effect: Decreased Shield HP Shield Regenerator Benefit: Small Increase Shield Recharge Rate Negative Effect: ?? Armor Armor Plates Benefit: Increased Armor HP Negative Effect: Decreased Movement Speed Armor Repairer Benefit: Armor Regeneration Negative Effect: ?? Ferroscale Plate Benefit: Small Increase Armor HP Negative Effect: Decreased Armor Repair Rate Adaptive Plating Benefit: Small Increase Armor HP & Regeneration Negative Effect: Decreased Movement Speed Nanofiber Structure Benefit: Increased Movement Speed Negative Effect: Decreased Armor HP Biotics Cardiac Regulator Benefit: Increased Stamina Pool Negative Effect: Decreased Sprint Speed Kinetic Catalyzer Benefit: Increased Sprint Speed Negative Effect: Decreased Stamina Recovery Cardiac Stimulant Benefit: Increased Stamina Recovery Negative Effect: Decreased Stamina Pool Myofiber Stimulant Benefit: Increased Melee Damage Negative Effect: ?? Weapon Upgrades Damage Modifier Benefit: Increased Damage Negative Effect: Increased Recoil & Decreased Accuracy Inertial Stabilizer Benefit: Increased Accuracy & Decreased Recoil Negative Effect: Decreased Damage Electronics Precision Enhancer Benefit: Increased Scan Precision Negative Effect: Decreased Scan Range Range Amplifier Benefit: Increased Scan Range Negative Effect: Decreased Scan Precision Profile Dampener Benefit: Decreased Signature Profile Negative Effect: Decreased Hack Speed Codebreaker Benefit: Increased Hack Speed Negative Effect: Increased Signature Profile DROPSUITS Dropsuits of the same class should have identical Base HP, attributes, and Slot Configuration, regardless of tier. PG and CPU increase with tier. WEAPONS Weapons of the same class should have identical damage output, regardless of tier. Variables that increase with tier would vary depending on the weapon. For example, variables such as accuracy, recoil, magazine size, and range could change as tier increases. CONCLUSION While many will argue and complain that a system like this does not properly reward those who have more SP, I believe that it helps to level the playing field and put more emphasis on player skill. Additional SP allows for a more optimized fit without giving the player an excessive advantage in health and damage. More emphasis will be placed on fitting, allowing players to give up some advantages in order to gain others so that they may better tailor fits to their personal playstyle. New players will be able to start the game in basic gear and still remain competitive against veterans, but on that same note veterans will be able to better optimize and customizes their fits. In addition, this system would prevent 'protostomping' in public matches and make an overall more enjoyable experience for players new and old. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 178	Posted - 2014.01.14 16:24:00 - [2] - Quote +10 to this. make #1 determiner so new players can compete and the game can grow.
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 547	Posted - 2014.01.14 16:38:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon we have been a big fan of tiercide since it was mentioned. our blog has always supported making better gear an upgrade by more subtle means rather than have it with more impact than skill. A militia AR that does 34 dmg with 40 rounds, an iron sight and no customization slots is inferior to a GEK that does 35 dmg has 60 rounds and a slot for customization where upgrades like a scope, extended mag stabilizer, suppressor or energy bayonet could be added. as u pointed out armor plates that have slightly more protection [5 hp or so] are lighter, are more efficient [less pg & cpu cost] and have a lower scan profile are upgrades as well. we would like to highlight this well thought out piece [and movement in general] on our blog and continue to push it to the devs on a regular basis. email us at [email protected] if ur interested. look fwd to hearing from you.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1474	Posted - 2014.01.14 18:19:00 - [4] - Quote Prius Vecht wrote: +10 to this. make #1 determiner so new players can compete and the game can grow. It's not only that, it makes player skill significantly more important, but it also avoids the CoD gameplay by keeping the same skill system and actually deepening the fitting system. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 302	Posted - 2014.01.14 18:38:00 - [5] - Quote There are a couple potential problems that can arise from this kind of tieracide: * The negative is too small to really care about, meaning that the Skill Points and increase in cost is meaningless. "Why should I spend SP and money to not get a noticeable benefit." * The negative is noticeable, meaning the person with more SP and money is again flat-out better than you. Similar problem that we are having now. * When WoW was first in beta, the Rested Experience didn't exist. Instead, it was called Fatigue when you weren't 'Rested' and you suffered a 50% Penalty to experience. People HATED it. Blizzard changed it so if you logged out for a while, you got Rested experience. That gave you double experience until you were not Rested. The experience did not change, only how it was perceived. Working to overcome a Penalty, IE spending SP and cash to get a better mod, SUCKS! Working to get better regen/HP is progression. * Modules are easy. Dropsuits are a serious problem. It isn't like EVE where being a Caracal or a Moa changes everything about your play style. In DUST, using a Scout or Assault doesn't really change your play style all that much, all things considered. You are more or less putting in the same modules, equipment, and weapons. The Caracal vs. Moa thing has different weapons, completely different low slots, more drones, and different medium slots. Even a Logistics dropsuit has basically the same play style as an Assault. The only difference is that the Logistics generally throws down more equipment than the Assault but they still want to shoot the other guy in the face. Hopefully CCP has better minds than those on the forums and finds an acceptable response to the problems of doing a tieracide in this game. Done well, it will certainly make the game better. Be well. -Joseph
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1479	Posted - 2014.01.14 18:58:00 - [6] - Quote Dusters Blog wrote: Pokey Dravon we have been a big fan of tiercide since it was mentioned. our blog has always supported making better gear an upgrade by more subtle means rather than have it with more impact than skill. A militia AR that does 34 dmg with 40 rounds, an iron sight and no customization slots is inferior to a GEK that does 35 dmg has 60 rounds and a slot for customization where upgrades like a scope, extended mag stabilizer, suppressor or energy bayonet could be added. While I think weapon customization is a good idea that should be implemented in the future, I feel that right now we need to focus on making fixes to the current system, not implementing additional systems. I've already spoken with the developers about this, and while they would like to do it, the current game is not hardcoded to accept this type of system and thus it would take extensive amounts of resources dedicated just to add weapon customization. I feel that at this time, it is not very high on the priority list, which is why I didn't bring it up in my post. Flatlining baseline advantages through tiericide however, is somthing that can be done in the immediate future to bring much more balanced gameplay, and thus is our immediate focus. As it stands now attributes such as range, accuracy, and stability do increase with tier and this is a good thing. The reason Sharpshooter was problematic was that it allowed you to raise the range of a weapon upwards of 40%...where as it should be more like 5-10% between Militia and Prototype. I feel damage between weapon tiers should NOT increase at all. My reasoning for this is that the skills high SP characters train up "Operation, Sharpshooter, ect." which offers a benefit that helps to negate the disadvantages of a Damage Modifier. These skills paired with higher tiered weapons would allow a high SP character the ability to upgrade their damage for "free" because skills and weapons are negating the negative effects that that damage mod has. While this would give higher SP characters a damage advantage, it only goes so far. Equipping a second damage mod would push those negative effects higher than skills and weapons could compensate for. While the user has the option to stack additional damage mods together, it would come at and increasingly high cost of accuracy, recoil reduction, blast radius, ect. Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Hopefully CCP has better minds than those on the forums and finds an acceptable response to the problems of doing a tieracide in this game. This sounds a little condescending, but whatever.. I understand what you're getting at, but this is actually very similar to how vehicles operate now. Skills should of course always be completely positive and always on, this encourages people to spend SP to gain bonuses. On that same thread, EVERY skill in the game should offer some sort of bonus other than "Unlocks _______ at Lvl 1, 3 and 5". Modules however should be paired with downsides in order to encourage diversity of fit and less stacking, particularly HP and Damage modules. As for Dropsuits I agree that it is a difficult task. I would prefer to see more suit variants that tailor to different playstyles with proper bonuses to fit. This would allow people to skill into a suit which offers bonuses they like, but with modules that keep combat effectivness similar regardless of specialization. The suits and weapons themselves should not have negatives to equipping them, and secondary attributes should improve with tier. However, I disagree that weapon damage should increase, at least not by any significant margin. Weapon damage should be boosted with Proficiency Skill and Damage mods (with attached negative effects). 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 123	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:11:00 - [7] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DROPSUITS Dropsuits of the same class should have identical Base HP, attributes, and Slot Configuration, regardless of tier. PG and CPU increase with tier. I'm not going to dissect your entire post, but this part I disagree with. In order to create unique and interesting gameplay, you cannot have identical clones of the same suit repeated ad nauseum. This is not tiericide, this is watering down. Bonuses alone are not going to make each suit unique enough for a clever player to utilize, you need to vary the attributes of a suit along with their bonuses to make them more unique and interesting, crafting more playstyles for it. An example that constantly occurs to me would be a Ranger style suit. The bonuses would be for weapons..more ammo, better damage mod efficacy (off the top of my head), but in the attributes, bring the armor down a bit and lower the suit's scan profile to something in the neighborhood of 40dB...Now you've got something a clever player could use to create a stealthier assault (if they manage to catch the change in attributes) without 'advertising' it via Bonuses. That is simply an off-the-cuff example though. You can utilize all of the attributes of a given suit to do similar things. Creating one-dimensional 'everybody is the same' layouts is a very poor choice.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1479	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:19:00 - [8] - Quote Gemini Reynolds wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DROPSUITS Dropsuits of the same class should have identical Base HP, attributes, and Slot Configuration, regardless of tier. PG and CPU increase with tier. I'm not going to dissect your entire post, but this part I disagree with. In order to create unique and interesting gameplay, you cannot have identical clones of the same suit repeated ad nauseum. This is not tiericide, this is watering down. Bonuses alone are not going to make each suit unique enough for a clever player to utilize, you need to vary the attributes of a suit along with their bonuses to make them more unique and interesting, crafting more playstyles for it. An example that constantly occurs to me would be a Ranger style suit. The bonuses would be for weapons..more ammo, better damage mod efficacy (off the top of my head), but in the attributes, bring the armor down a bit and lower the suit's scan profile to something in the neighborhood of 40dB...Now you've got something a clever player could use to create a stealthier assault (if they manage to catch the change in attributes) without 'advertising' it via Bonuses. That is simply an off-the-cuff example though. You can utilize all of the attributes of a given suit to do similar things. Creating one-dimensional 'everybody is the same' layouts is a very poor choice. I think this is a failure of how I worded things. Im proposing that you keep the tier system of Standard, Advanced, and Prototype but the slot layout and HP is the same across those tiers. Higher tiered suits simply allow you to equip higher tier weapons and modules, thus avoiding heavy negative effects. Only suits of the same specialty (for example Assault) would have the same layout. I do not think however the suits that are different roles should have the same layout. For example a Logistics and an Assault would totally different slot layouts. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Talryn Vilneram SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 150	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:19:00 - [9] - Quote i like this a lot. On modules that you cannot think of a negative, you can always go with decreased fitting costs.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 302	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:32:00 - [10] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Hopefully CCP has better minds than those on the forums and finds an acceptable response to the problems of doing a tieracide in this game. This sounds a little condescending, but whatever.. Oh, I never meant it like that. I didn't mean it as a "hopefully CCP is smarter than you"; I meant it as a "hopefully CCP knows what they are doing more than us forum goers and know how to do their jobs." I apologize for wording it unfortunately. Never meant to insult. Now that is out of the way: I didn't mean that Skills shouldn't be positive. I meant that Skilling to overcome a negative is really lame. Imagine if the basic Assault suit had 150 Shields with the skill that increases shields maxed and 100 with no points in that skill. But instead of saying "Adds 10% to your Maximum Shields", it said "Reduces the penalty on your Shields by 20%." Obviously the math wouldn't work like that, but I am just looking at it as a point. Skilling to overcome a negative (IE, "Armor Plate speed reduction reduced by 10%") is a lot less interesting than Skilling to gain a benefit (IE, "Speed increased by Y%.) I am not disagreeing that tieracide should happen, only that it is going to be a royal pain in the butt to figure out a way that is fair and 'feels good to skill up and get better.' Be well. -Joseph

BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1569	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:40:00 - [11] - Quote Seems fair but you make every module a "rock, paper, scissor" balance so using modules to negate other modules just leads to a 0 net gain in effectiveness. Also your ferroscale plates such :< armor repair rate is low enough.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1480	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:41:00 - [12] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: I didn't mean that Skills shouldn't be positive. I meant that Skilling to overcome a negative is really lame. Imagine if the basic Assault suit had 150 Shields with the skill that increases shields maxed and 100 with no points in that skill. But instead of saying "Adds 10% to your Maximum Shields", it said "Reduces the penalty on your Shields by 20%." Obviously the math wouldn't work like that, but I am just looking at it as a point. Skilling to overcome a negative (IE, "Armor Plate speed reduction reduced by 10%") is a lot less interesting than Skilling to gain a benefit (IE, "Speed increased by Y%.) I am not disagreeing that tieracide should happen, only that it is going to be a royal pain in the butt to figure out a way that is fair and 'feels good to skill up and get better.' Be well. -Joseph I understand what you're getting at, and I agree that how its worded is paramount. For the armor plate example, you can't just "increase speed by ____" because that would apply regardless if you're wearing plates or not, and "Increases speed by ____ when wearing armor plates" sounds....clunky? I think perhaps again, I worded it poorly. Skills themselves would flat out say "Increases _____ by ______" but the EFFECT is that it helps to negate negative effects from modules, but not flay out say it like that. So skills themselves are described as completely positive. Modules however should have a positive and negative attached, and that negative being reduced as you use higher tiered modules. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1480	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:42:00 - [13] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Seems fair but you make every module a "rock, paper, scissor" balance so using modules to negate other modules just leads to a 0 net gain in effectiveness. Also your ferroscale plates such :< armor repair rate is low enough. >_> You didn't read it all did you? I clearly state that negative effects never exceed the positive effects of the complimentary modules. That being said if you used 1 of each, you would get a net gain on all 3 attributes. Pokey Dravon wrote: Negative effects should never exceed the benefit another module provide, therefor a mix of modules will produce a net increase in all attributes. This also discourages large stacks of the same module type and encourages variety in fitting. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1569	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:46:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Gemini Reynolds wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DROPSUITS Dropsuits of the same class should have identical Base HP, attributes, and Slot Configuration, regardless of tier. PG and CPU increase with tier. I'm not going to dissect your entire post, but this part I disagree with. In order to create unique and interesting gameplay, you cannot have identical clones of the same suit repeated ad nauseum. This is not tiericide, this is watering down. Bonuses alone are not going to make each suit unique enough for a clever player to utilize, you need to vary the attributes of a suit along with their bonuses to make them more unique and interesting, crafting more playstyles for it. An example that constantly occurs to me would be a Ranger style suit. The bonuses would be for weapons..more ammo, better damage mod efficacy (off the top of my head), but in the attributes, bring the armor down a bit and lower the suit's scan profile to something in the neighborhood of 40dB...Now you've got something a clever player could use to create a stealthier assault (if they manage to catch the change in attributes) without 'advertising' it via Bonuses. That is simply an off-the-cuff example though. You can utilize all of the attributes of a given suit to do similar things. Creating one-dimensional 'everybody is the same' layouts is a very poor choice. I think this is a failure of how I worded things. Im proposing that you keep the tier system of Standard, Advanced, and Prototype but the slot layout and HP is the same across those tiers. Higher tiered suits simply allow you to equip higher tier weapons and modules, thus avoiding heavy negative effects. Only suits of the same specialty (for example Assault) would have the same layout. I do not think however the suits that are different roles should have the same layout. For example a Logistics and an Assault would totally different slot layouts. He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1569	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:49:00 - [15] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Seems fair but you make every module a "rock, paper, scissor" balance so using modules to negate other modules just leads to a 0 net gain in effectiveness. Also your ferroscale plates such :< armor repair rate is low enough. >_> You didn't read it all did you? I clearly state that negative effects never exceed the positive effects of the complimentary modules. That being said if you used 1 of each, you would get a net gain on all 3 attributes. Pokey Dravon wrote: Negative effects should never exceed the benefit another module provide, therefor a mix of modules will produce a net increase in all attributes. This also discourages large stacks of the same module type and encourages variety in fitting. I read all of it... but I stand by what I said. Weather or not the net gain is zero as long as the module is subtracting from the positives the net gain will always be small. Although this can be compensated by simply stacking module X basic-enhanced, X basic-enhanced, Y-Complex. X being the wanted effect and Y being the compensator.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2086	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:54:00 - [16] - Quote Would new players really stay if they start off buggered basically and simply grind to removes penalties? And if this idea was as good as peoples like yourself believe them I'm sure it'd have been created with this as the norm. Iv read other threads about this yet yours makes it look like the game would be better suited for masochists. And iv read the thread, I'm of the opinion that dust would be pure sht and more of a grind while simultaneously giving newbs no real motive to grind and making vets feel like they wasted their time. Let me know if I'm wrong, I'll ignore any opinion used to try and de bunk mine, bias is bias. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2086	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:56:00 - [17] - Quote So am I wrong or is this just a matter of opinion? Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1480	Posted - 2014.01.14 19:56:00 - [18] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: I read all of it... but I stand by what I said. Weather or not the net gain is zero as long as the module is subtracting from the positives the net gain will always be small. Although this can be compensated by simply stacking module X basic-enhanced, X basic-enhanced, Y-Complex. X being the wanted effect and Y being the compensator. That's the whole point. You can't gain anything without giving up something up in return, so if you want a small net gain you can equip all 3 modules. Or say you're a Gallente suit with a Plasma Rifle, and you don't care about accuracy because you intent to only engage close range....well than you can put a damage modifier on and not worry about compensating for that loss in accuracy and stability. BL4CKST4R wrote: He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc. So if you want the sneaky suit type that's level 5, and your buddy wants the frontal assault suit type that's level 1....you're just boned because your play-style differs? Each specialty should be its own tree but you need an incentive to level up your specialty. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1480	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:00:00 - [19] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Would new players really stay if they start off buggered basically and simply grind to removes penalties? And if this idea was as good as peoples like yourself believe them I'm sure it'd have been created with this as the norm. Iv read other threads about this yet yours makes it look like the game would be better suited for masochists. And iv read the thread, I'm of the opinion that dust would be pure sht and more of a grind while simultaneously giving newbs no real motive to grind and making vets feel like they wasted their time. Let me know if I'm wrong, I'll ignore any opinion used to try and de bunk mine, bias is bias. Of course its a matter of opinion, I never said everyone would agree with me and even point out in my conclusion that I knew the argument you raise would come up. I guess my personal viewpoint is "The other guy has Proto Armor Plates, that means hes going to be able to move faster than me in my Basic Armor Plates, I should skill into that" 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2087	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:10:00 - [20] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Would new players really stay if they start off buggered basically and simply grind to removes penalties? And if this idea was as good as peoples like yourself believe them I'm sure it'd have been created with this as the norm. Iv read other threads about this yet yours makes it look like the game would be better suited for masochists. And iv read the thread, I'm of the opinion that dust would be pure sht and more of a grind while simultaneously giving newbs no real motive to grind and making vets feel like they wasted their time. Let me know if I'm wrong, I'll ignore any opinion used to try and de bunk mine, bias is bias. Of course its a matter of opinion, I never said everyone would agree with me and even point out in my conclusion that I knew the argument you raise would come up. I guess my personal viewpoint is "The other guy has Proto Armor Plates, that means hes going to be able to move faster than me in my Basic Armor Plates, I should skill into that" Ah ok thanks, iv been wondering if theres something concrete I'm simply not understanding lol. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1481	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:23:00 - [21] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Ah ok thanks, iv been wondering if theres something concrete I'm simply not understanding lol. Nah that's just your passive aggressive gland secreting too much. On a more mature note, lets see if we can find some middle ground. How would you feel in all modules had a downside as listed which decreased as you moved up tiers, but the benefit of the module also increased, but by a lesser amount than we have now? (In most cases) 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2087	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:25:00 - [22] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Ah ok thanks, iv been wondering if theres something concrete I'm simply not understanding lol. Nah that's just your passive aggressive gland secreting too much. On a more mature note, lets see if we can find some middle ground. How would you feel in all modules had a downside as listed which decreased as you moved up tiers, but the benefit of the module also increased, but by a lesser amount than we have now? (In most cases) 'On a more mature note' yes very mature mate hahahaha. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1481	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:27:00 - [23] - Quote Proposing a compromise is considered immature? Suddenly all the trolling on the forums makes sense! 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2087	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:29:00 - [24] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Proposing a compromise is considered immature? Suddenly all the trolling on the forums makes sense! And admitting that I thought I might not quite be understanding tiericide is what? Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1482	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:31:00 - [25] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Proposing a compromise is considered immature? Suddenly all the trolling on the forums makes sense! And admitting that I thought I might not quite be understanding tiericide is what? Your response was snarky, I was not making an attempt to insult your understanding of what I was talking about. I apologize if it came across that way. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2087	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:33:00 - [26] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Proposing a compromise is considered immature? Suddenly all the trolling on the forums makes sense! And admitting that I thought I might not quite be understanding tiericide is what? Your response was snarky, I was not making an attempt to insult your understanding of what I was talking about. I apologize if it came across that way. Haha, I didn't mean to come across like that, I apologise as well. Can't really blame you as I come here to discuss the game and be a d!ck. I'm all for this anyway, iws showed some 'pretty pictures' showing some nice benefits I'd never realised or been told before. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1494	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:41:00 - [27] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Haha, I didn't mean to come across like that, I apologise as well. Can't really blame you as I come here to discuss the game and be a d!ck. I'm all for this anyway, iws showed some 'pretty pictures' showing some nice benefits I'd never realised or been told before. I saw IWS's post as well, and his setup for suits is far better than mine so I'm all for that. I still want to find a way to encourage more diversity in how dropsuits are fit, because I feel currently only a handful of fitting philosophies are valid and I think it makes fitting really stale. My idea was that if you attach downsides to modules, you're encouraged to use different types to balance the positives and negatives in a way which suits your playstyle more. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2088	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:44:00 - [28] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Haha, I didn't mean to come across like that, I apologise as well. Can't really blame you as I come here to discuss the game and be a d!ck. I'm all for this anyway, iws showed some 'pretty pictures' showing some nice benefits I'd never realised or been told before. I saw IWS's post as well, and his setup for suits is far better than mine so I'm all for that. I still want to find a way to encourage more diversity in how dropsuits are fit, because I feel currently only a handful of fitting philosophies are valid and I think it makes fitting really stale. My idea was that if you attach downsides to modules, you're encouraged to use different types to balance the positives and negatives in a way which suits your playstyle more. Aha I get you, its been a long day. I am totally getting this now. I totally agree and it seems that ccp was considering doing this seen as the beta suits had two slightly different variants of each. Iv just never seen it put the way you or iws have put it, showing an actual enjoyable side to it. Mind blown. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 123	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:44:00 - [29] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: I read all of it... but I stand by what I said. Weather or not the net gain is zero as long as the module is subtracting from the positives the net gain will always be small. Although this can be compensated by simply stacking module X basic-enhanced, X basic-enhanced, Y-Complex. X being the wanted effect and Y being the compensator. That's the whole point. You can't gain anything without giving up something up in return, so if you want a small net gain you can equip all 3 modules. Or say you're a Gallente suit with a Plasma Rifle, and you don't care about accuracy because you intent to only engage close range....well than you can put a damage modifier on and not worry about compensating for that loss in accuracy and stability. BL4CKST4R wrote: He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc. So if you want the sneaky suit type that's level 5, and your buddy wants the frontal assault suit type that's level 1....you're just boned because your play-style differs? Each specialty should be its own tree but you need an incentive to level up your specialty. Two slight misunderstandings between both of you. I'm not saying "Assault" at level 1, "Sneaky" at level 5. I'm talking both specializations available at the same time, split the difference and say, level 3. What I am saying is that you can have multiple "Assault' role suits, within the same race even, that do different things that are varied by both bonuses and attributes as well as slot layouts. These are the key factors to making suits unique. Assume, for a moment, that all assaults across all races had the exact same layout and attributes, etc....What's the point? What motivation would I have for picking any race, beyond 'teh ArrPeez'? Now, I'll grant you, everyone can skill into any race, but once I have picked one...Why bother with any other? This idea would cut down variation to less than a quarter of what it is now. Thus, an assault would be an assault that is the same as another assault. This is poor game design, I am sorry to say. Now lets take that same conceit for a moment, identical slot layouts, and fudge with the variables for each one. So, you've got a Caldari assault that has a good base amount for shield HP. That's it's advantage, no matter what bonuses are applied to the suit. High base shield HP. Now, you want something that's assault, but sneakier? Go Minmatar. The suit has a lower overall base HP, but also a better sig profile and scan radius. This second example is similar to what we have at the moment..What I am saying is create more granularity within the races. Say, previous Cal assault, call this new one Type II: Lower base HP, traded in for, say, faster stamina recovery. Then another that has lower shield HP, but quicker recovery time from damage/depleted. Mind you in these latter examples I have not mentioned the bonuses to said suits at all. The bonuses, in my opinion, should also have nothing to do with the altered attributes of the suit. In the example of the quicker shield recovery suit, the bonuses are, instead of the possible obvious efficacy of Shield Regulators..Make the bonuses to say, scanning. Or nano-injectors, or something else. It doesn't matter in the example. The granularity of attributes and bonuses alone suggest roles without 'forcing' them. You could take any suit and still make of it what you will, build towards the bonus, or the attribute or (if you're silly) build it completely contrary. None of these alterations make the previous iteration, the one with all base stats with a good high Shield HP, any less desirable or useful either. Just a different flavor.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2088	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:46:00 - [30] - Quote And theres some likes xp lol Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1494	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:47:00 - [31] - Quote Gemini, I think we're essentially getting at the same thing and I failed hardcore at getting that part across. Iron Wolf Sabre has a post up right now describing essentially what you're saying and what I'm thinking, so I suggest you check it out if you haven't already. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 1633	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:49:00 - [32] - Quote I love this concept. It rewards high so players by allowing them to become more specialized into a specific role, while newberries are more generalist and can easily kill specialists outside of their specialty, while the opposite holds true. It is inevitable that it'll happen, but it's quite far off. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1099	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:51:00 - [33] - Quote now that you've written quite a long summation i'm going to tell you that there are no tiers in dust yet. every suit is a tier one suit. when they start releasing tier two suits we'll talk about why tiericide will be important way down the line, but not now.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1496	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:54:00 - [34] - Quote low genius wrote: now that you've written quite a long summation i'm going to tell you that there are no tiers in dust yet. every suit is a tier one suit. when they start releasing tier two suits we'll talk about why tiericide will be important way down the line, but not now. Don't you mean Tech I? Regardless I know where you're going, and I agree. Don't get caught up in the wording though. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1569	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:06:00 - [35] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc. So if you want the sneaky suit type that's level 5, and your buddy wants the frontal assault suit type that's level 1....you're just boned because your play-style differs? Each specialty should be its own tree but you need an incentive to level up your specialty.[/quote] that wasn't a literal description of how the suits should be released per level but how the complexity of the suit, or how much the suit differs, as you level up. Basically every level you get a different version of the suit to fill a different play style. Even though the suit you want might be at level 5 the suit bonuses should be good enough as to you will want to get to level 5 regardless.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1513	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:51:00 - [36] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc. So if you want the sneaky suit type that's level 5, and your buddy wants the frontal assault suit type that's level 1....you're just boned because your play-style differs? Each specialty should be its own tree but you need an incentive to level up your specialty. that wasn't a literal description of how the suits should be released per level but how the complexity of the suit, or how much the suit differs, as you level up. Basically every level you get a different version of the suit to fill a different play style. Even though the suit you want might be at level 5 the suit bonuses should be good enough as to you will want to get to level 5 regardless. [/quote] If that's what you meant, then yes. The way you worded it was a bit misleading so I wanted to make sure we were on the same page 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs


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