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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
3521
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Posted - 2014.01.11 18:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I think a cloak would be a good way to lose the enemy if they see me.
Just round around the corner, cloak, and stay still with knives charged. All they have to do is scan the area with their gun reticle, wait for it to turn red, then kill you. I doubt it'll work that way
We used to have a time machine
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11926
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Posted - 2014.01.11 19:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
Lowest Common fit of Proto Scouts is 60 Grid 230 CPU
With 50% cloak fitting cloaks cannot have over 120 grid and 230 CPU this is a hard limit. However under "Reasonable Design" a scout should be able to fit one at lvl 1 and no fitting skills so 66 Grid and 253 CPU is our hard boiled limit. Then we add in the minimal weapon requirement the smallest sipper of both cpu and grid is the scrambler pistol basic at 2 grid and 11 cpu
This leaves the scout with 58 Grid and 219 CPU with the bonus thrown back in cloaks cannot be over 116 Grid or 438 cpu
Logistics are 72 Grid and 350 CPU and with 25% blanket equipment covering minus the scrambler pistol would leave the logi with 114 grid and 427 CPU and with the bonus to equipment it can effectively fit anything up to.
142 Grid and 533 CPU
Thus apples to oranges let do say our imaginary cloak is 66 grid and 253 cpu (I doubt it)
At lvl 5 the scout and slap this on for a 33 grid and 127 cpu Leaving about 27 Grid and 103 cpu
Insufficient for a prototype sniper
Logi on the other hand
at lvl 5 his costs is 50 grid and 190 CPU
Leavings about 22 grid and 160 CPU and with the logi having more slots to deal with fitting defiencies they can easily nudge their needs to fit a proto sniper and more.
And this is playing into worst case scenarios.
Pulling numbers from dust info dust because dust thang or grits cloud does not have weapon fittings and of course this is some terrible theorycrafting crafting, however any more would just make logistics the preferred cloaker not scouts.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Appia Vibbia
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
595
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Posted - 2014.01.11 20:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
Why would a sniper use a cloak? Simple answer: they wouldn't unless they are a logi. In fact, even on my logi-sniper fit I wouldn't use the cloak because it'll have a higher fitting cost than the wiyrkomi triage. Sniping in this game is underpowered, hated by the DEVs, intentionally made ineffective by map design since Uprising began, and the damage is too low to kill ADV or PRO gear effectively. The typical sniper will use every high slot for damage mod, get 1-3 nanohives, and as much armor plates in the lows as they can fit. Snipers in Uprising are the mosquitoes of this game. They are annoying, they hurt but don't kill, nearly impossible to swat, but even if you do they just come back.
Logi with a Shotgun is going to be no more or no less effective than a scout with a shotgun. With the loss of the dampening effect of the Scout operation skill, it'll take 2 dampeners for both the Med-Frame and the Light-Frame to avoid proto scanners (and 4 complex profile dampeners to avoid a Gal-Logi's proto scanner). The shotgun itself is just like the sniper rifle, it depends on that high damage from the first shot as its DPS is very low. Shotguns one-hit-kill STD suits, 2 shots from ADV suits, 2 shots fro PRO Assault, 3-4 Shots for PRO Logi, and Heavies take 3-5 shots depending on level of gear using.
If you're running against protogear, be afraid of the stealth'ed CR or aRR, because they have significantly higher DPS, and when it takes more than 1 full second to kill a suit- and it does for a shotgun- those Fine Rifles are going to be more deadly
Unless significant improvements to Scout's base stats for profile signature, scan radius, scan precision, movement speed, and sprint speed, the return of a proto scout's 6th slot, and a second equipment slot there is absolutely no real reason a Logi will not out perform a scout.
hopefully the error of making a cloaking device an equipment slot will show how terrible an idea this was and just how dreadfully underpowered a scout suit is.
btw, I'm not just complaining about these things, I've been a scout-sniper since closed beta, and over the course of uprising I've accrued access to Caldari Logi, Gallente Logi, and Amarr Assault at proto levels; Caldari & Gallente Assault and Amarr Logi at ADV level, and 4 proto light weapons, 3 proto sidearms, (nova knives at lvl 1) and the other 6 light weapons at lvl 3 And what I don't have access to on this character, I have several alts that specialize in those weapons and suits
Cloak is not for scouts, it is for logistics suits. Cloak is not for snipers or shotgunners, it is for people running around with 1 of the 4 Fine Rifles.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Cass Caul is no longer my alt
[email protected]
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Appia Vibbia
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
595
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Posted - 2014.01.11 20:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:If they give scouts an additional equipment slot then the cloak will be exceptionally useful: ghosting through an enemy position that is completely fortified from a full frontal assault and dropping a single uplink behind them...hehe. Sounds good, doesn't it?
It's a very tactical piece of equipment that'll take brains and imagination to get the best use out of it. I'm all for more of that kind of thing in my games.
What game are you playing? It certainly isn't DUST, because it if was you;d know that the "fortified areas" are on top of a null cannon console, or that people constantly have active scanners going to so that unless you're using the 'Void' Carthum Imperial Drop-Uplink (and AUR only item) those uplinks will be taken out before your team can finish spawning on them.
Hit-Run-Cloak is going to be the way to use it. And if any of the whiny low-skilled players *cough* IWS *cough* Kain Spero *cough* or med-frame apologists that pretend to speak on behalf of scouts, nerf it before it comes out that really will be its best use.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
Cass Caul is no longer my alt
[email protected]
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Marc Rime
212
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Posted - 2014.01.11 20:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Everything is an SP dump, that's how they make money (make the SP grind tedious and slow enough so that you buy boosters). That said, more content and diversity is a good thing.
And yeah, scouts/lights need a boost. The cloak isn't a *scout* boost. |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
4723
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Posted - 2014.01.11 20:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
It's definitely another SP dump, should be a 3x skill so 1 mil SP for prototype. Aside from that, there's not much to talk about since we don't know if they will be updating the scout's PG/CPU or giving it an extra equipment slot and whatnot.
ARC Commander
CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
973
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Posted - 2014.01.11 21:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:
And yeah, scouts/lights need a boost. The cloak isn't a *scout* boost.
+1
Do not loose sight of this, CCP. If you add cloaks, make them useful for scouts - not an SP dump. In doing so, do not presuppose that we have any particular playstyle (i.e; - cloaks now relegate scouts to invisible killers w/ no equipment utility)
I became a scout to be a ninja cowboy.
Ninja's don't use cloaks. Neither do cowboys. So do not mess with my mojo.... the force is weak enough with scouts already. |
Mac Dac
Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
419
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Posted - 2014.01.12 02:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Why would a sniper use a cloak? Simple answer: they wouldn't unless they are a logi. In fact, even on my logi-sniper fit I wouldn't use the cloak because it'll have a higher fitting cost than the wiyrkomi triage. Sniping in this game is underpowered, hated by the DEVs, intentionally made ineffective by map design since Uprising began, and the damage is too low to kill ADV or PRO gear effectively. The typical sniper will use every high slot for damage mod, get 1-3 nanohives, and as much armor plates in the lows as they can fit. Snipers in Uprising are the mosquitoes of this game. They are annoying, they hurt but don't kill, nearly impossible to swat, but even if you do they just come back.
Logi with a Shotgun is going to be no more or no less effective than a scout with a shotgun. With the loss of the dampening effect of the Scout operation skill, it'll take 2 dampeners for both the Med-Frame and the Light-Frame to avoid proto scanners (and 4 complex profile dampeners to avoid a Gal-Logi's proto scanner). The shotgun itself is just like the sniper rifle, it depends on that high damage from the first shot as its DPS is very low. Shotguns one-hit-kill STD suits, 2 shots from ADV suits, 2 shots fro PRO Assault, 3-4 Shots for PRO Logi, and Heavies take 3-5 shots depending on level of gear using.
If you're running against protogear, be afraid of the stealth'ed CR or aRR, because they have significantly higher DPS, and when it takes more than 1 full second to kill a suit- and it does for a shotgun- those Fine Rifles are going to be more deadly
Unless significant improvements to Scout's base stats for profile signature, scan radius, scan precision, movement speed, and sprint speed, the return of a proto scout's 6th slot, and a second equipment slot there is absolutely no real reason a Logi will not out perform a scout.
hopefully the error of making a cloaking device an equipment slot will show how terrible an idea this was and just how dreadfully underpowered a scout suit is.
btw, I'm not just complaining about these things, I've been a scout-sniper since closed beta, and over the course of uprising I've accrued access to Caldari Logi, Gallente Logi, and Amarr Assault at proto levels; Caldari & Gallente Assault and Amarr Logi at ADV level, and 4 proto light weapons, 3 proto sidearms, (nova knives at lvl 1) and the other 6 light weapons at lvl 3 And what I don't have access to on this character, I have several alts that specialize in those weapons and suits
Cloak is not for scouts, it is for logistics suits. Cloak is not for snipers or shotgunners, it is for people running around with 1 of the 4 Fine Rifles. I presume this may be worse then just shadow logis.
IF CCP goes through with switching the scouts profile bonus with a cloak fitting bonus, scouts will have a lot harder time hiding from scanners. Which means more sacrafice for stealth without cloaks.
And IF CCP decides to go through with the gal logi's active scanner bonus on top of scouts losing their profile bonus, no one will be able to from scanners.
I don't know if cloaks effect scan profiles, but if they do. The entire scout role would need to gimp themselves to have one or else be unviable. Scouts would solely depend on cloaks just to be as viable as the are now. And people already want to nerf the hell out of cloaks.
"We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
6387
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Posted - 2014.01.12 02:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
TheD1CK wrote:Cloaks are almost ready to be released which is a very good thing, but I want to look at the practical uses of a cloak in Dust514
So as far as I have picked up, you need to activate/deactivate cloak and wait out any cooldown time You won't be able to engage in combat or do anything else while cloaked.. 'Shimmer' effect while moving.... which is the polite way of saying, 'we can see you dip****'
So scouts lose their equipment, and their CPU/PG to using a cloak In return they have the ability to hide, and contribute no WP to their squad
ehmmm... I don't see the point here... maybe I have missed something...
Because from what I have seen, this is only bad news for scouts... We can no longer provide uplinks or AV or even some ammo .... But thank god we can move about with this pretty shimmer while being unable to fight
This game is full of people trying to kill you... If anyone thinks invisible scouts will save you from the deaths a normal scout gets you are wrong ....
All this does is make it easier for scouts to sneak up on guys not paying attention... Which is about all the scout does anyway ....
I understand that firing while cloaked could **** people off, but you are asking scouts to give up
- Equipment - Fitting cost... (Speed/HP/DMG/Dampeners) - Ability to use weapon, without delay
I'm still hopeful that the cloaks can be implemented in a useful way, but so far I don't see it
First off, I want to make it absolutely clear that CCP Remnant confirmed that he wants to give scouts HUGE fitting bonuses for utilizing the cloaking equipment.
Second, scouts will likely have better perks that can reduce the shimmer on the cloak while moving. Case in point, the covert ops ship in Eve Online allows you to warp while cloaked but the cloak won't stay active if fitted on any other ship class.
Third, we don't know the extent of the dropsuit overhaul that would be coming in 1.8. If the overhaul is extensive, that could mean that scouts might get an extra equipment slot so they wouldn't be too restricted. Besides, we might also get the remaining suit races the Amarr Scout and Caldari Scout so who knows what those will have.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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Tectonic Fusion
965
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Posted - 2014.01.12 03:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Provided:
Scouts are unscannable while cloaked Scouts given a Second Eq Slot Scouts given a Scan Radius buff to 30m
It'll be a great addition. Otherwise it'll be pointless, especially if you are scannable. How about we aren't scannable even without a cloak, get a second equipment slot, AND get a 30m scan radius buff? I wouldn't need a cloak if I had that.
Solo Player
Squad status: Locked
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Denn Maell
PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives
45
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Posted - 2014.01.12 03:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
There are major changes coming in Dust. The reveal of the SISI stats is proof of this. What those changes are and what they are not is something everyone is keen on.
I'm worried that it will be so OP that everyone will be blindly, invisibly bumbling around a battlefield and cloaking tools are so OP that they literally will be the only way to play.
Also, I'm a little concerned that the Gallente Logi seems to be potentially typecast into the role of info gatherer. And for that matter that Scouts in general seem to be forced to use a cloak or waste their skill bonuses. |
Mac Dac
Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
423
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Posted - 2014.01.12 03:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:There are major changes coming in Dust. The reveal of the SISI stats is proof of this. What those changes are and what they are not is something everyone is keen on.
I'm worried that it will be so OP that everyone will be blindly, invisibly bumbling around a battlefield and cloaking tools are so OP that they literally will be the only way to play.
Also, I'm a little concerned that the Gallente Logi seems to be potentially typecast into the role of info gatherer. And for that matter that Scouts in general seem to be forced to use a cloak or waste their skill bonuses. cloaks being OP is always a concern but they changes some people want for cloaks would just make them useless and more hindering then helping.
So I do hope cloaks aren't OP when they come out but I also don't want another useless item in Dust, ie precision enhancers and plasma cannon.
"We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste
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Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
2809
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Posted - 2014.01.12 03:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mac Dac wrote:Denn Maell wrote:There are major changes coming in Dust. The reveal of the SISI stats is proof of this. What those changes are and what they are not is something everyone is keen on.
I'm worried that it will be so OP that everyone will be blindly, invisibly bumbling around a battlefield and cloaking tools are so OP that they literally will be the only way to play.
Also, I'm a little concerned that the Gallente Logi seems to be potentially typecast into the role of info gatherer. And for that matter that Scouts in general seem to be forced to use a cloak or waste their skill bonuses. cloaks being OP is always a concern but they changes some people want for cloaks would just make them useless and more hindering then helping. So I do hope cloaks aren't OP when they come out but I also don't want another useless item in Dust, ie precision enhancers and plasma cannon. Hey!!! I run dual PLC and kick butt...so they are almost useless :p
Commando 6 // ARC Commander // D-Uni instructor
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Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy
669
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Posted - 2014.01.12 04:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
TheD1CK wrote:thanks for clearing that up Aisha...
And @ Fire of P... of course they will be useful to an extent but look at the cost, a scout will sacrifice their fitting to use cloaks, gimping our suits.. along with no contribution to squads via links/hives/revives/RE/PE/scanners
All of this to be partially invisible, with a HP max of 300 if lucky
As a Plasma Cannon user I get what you are saying about under-rated items still being useful if used effectively, but a commando has always had a decent base HP along with 2 light weapons and an equipment slot, I've never underrated the commando It has the ability to support any good squad .....
Being an invisible Gimp is a different story, I don't see how a cloaked scout is going to out-do a fast scout IMO once we adapt to seeing cloaks used, they will be ineffective
If you read the new Dev blog, how it's sounding, we're probably getting another eq. slot.
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
Alt of the great Godin
I like chocolate ^___^
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Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
2809
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Posted - 2014.01.12 04:28:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:TheD1CK wrote:thanks for clearing that up Aisha...
And @ Fire of P... of course they will be useful to an extent but look at the cost, a scout will sacrifice their fitting to use cloaks, gimping our suits.. along with no contribution to squads via links/hives/revives/RE/PE/scanners
All of this to be partially invisible, with a HP max of 300 if lucky
As a Plasma Cannon user I get what you are saying about under-rated items still being useful if used effectively, but a commando has always had a decent base HP along with 2 light weapons and an equipment slot, I've never underrated the commando It has the ability to support any good squad .....
Being an invisible Gimp is a different story, I don't see how a cloaked scout is going to out-do a fast scout IMO once we adapt to seeing cloaks used, they will be ineffective
If you read the new Dev blog, how it's sounding, we're probably getting another eq. slot. What new dev blog?
Commando 6 // ARC Commander // D-Uni instructor
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Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy
671
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Posted - 2014.01.12 04:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Fire of Prometheus wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:TheD1CK wrote:thanks for clearing that up Aisha...
And @ Fire of P... of course they will be useful to an extent but look at the cost, a scout will sacrifice their fitting to use cloaks, gimping our suits.. along with no contribution to squads via links/hives/revives/RE/PE/scanners
All of this to be partially invisible, with a HP max of 300 if lucky
As a Plasma Cannon user I get what you are saying about under-rated items still being useful if used effectively, but a commando has always had a decent base HP along with 2 light weapons and an equipment slot, I've never underrated the commando It has the ability to support any good squad .....
Being an invisible Gimp is a different story, I don't see how a cloaked scout is going to out-do a fast scout IMO once we adapt to seeing cloaks used, they will be ineffective
If you read the new Dev blog, how it's sounding, we're probably getting another eq. slot. What new dev blog?
This one. Read #6.
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
Alt of the great Godin
I like chocolate ^___^
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Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
2809
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Posted - 2014.01.12 04:35:00 -
[47] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:Fire of Prometheus wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:TheD1CK wrote:thanks for clearing that up Aisha...
And @ Fire of P... of course they will be useful to an extent but look at the cost, a scout will sacrifice their fitting to use cloaks, gimping our suits.. along with no contribution to squads via links/hives/revives/RE/PE/scanners
All of this to be partially invisible, with a HP max of 300 if lucky
As a Plasma Cannon user I get what you are saying about under-rated items still being useful if used effectively, but a commando has always had a decent base HP along with 2 light weapons and an equipment slot, I've never underrated the commando It has the ability to support any good squad .....
Being an invisible Gimp is a different story, I don't see how a cloaked scout is going to out-do a fast scout IMO once we adapt to seeing cloaks used, they will be ineffective
If you read the new Dev blog, how it's sounding, we're probably getting another eq. slot. What new dev blog? This one. Read #6. O....that's old :p
Commando 6 // ARC Commander // D-Uni instructor
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Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy
671
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Posted - 2014.01.12 04:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Fire of Prometheus wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:Fire of Prometheus wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:TheD1CK wrote:thanks for clearing that up Aisha...
And @ Fire of P... of course they will be useful to an extent but look at the cost, a scout will sacrifice their fitting to use cloaks, gimping our suits.. along with no contribution to squads via links/hives/revives/RE/PE/scanners
All of this to be partially invisible, with a HP max of 300 if lucky
As a Plasma Cannon user I get what you are saying about under-rated items still being useful if used effectively, but a commando has always had a decent base HP along with 2 light weapons and an equipment slot, I've never underrated the commando It has the ability to support any good squad .....
Being an invisible Gimp is a different story, I don't see how a cloaked scout is going to out-do a fast scout IMO once we adapt to seeing cloaks used, they will be ineffective
If you read the new Dev blog, how it's sounding, we're probably getting another eq. slot. What new dev blog? This one. Read #6. O....that's old :p
Media doesn't become "old" for at least.... I think it was 6 months. SO still technically new. Anyways, until a week ago, nobody was talking about it.....
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
Alt of the great Godin
I like chocolate ^___^
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