All true tankers will soon admit that in 1.7, tanking has dumbed down... So very much..

All true tankers will soon admit that in 1.7, tanking has dumbed down... So very much..

in before spkr4 awesome poasting

im an awesome tanker when it comes to supporting my team, i try not to kill infantry but i will with only a railgun and it takes "some" prctice before it starts to become easy to just 1 hit everyone.

when i use blasers is when im killing heavies and other tanks but besides that i prefer TvT action

we really need bigger maps, with more players, so that there can be multiple 'theatres' with the rail tanks operating on the edge of their range to inhibit red vehicle movements ... type of thing... imho >.<

limiting rail range would be a nice buff for DS but would essentially nerf the rail away and most likely we'd see the return of the missile tank (taking a bit but speccing into it to see why i never see any anymore[?])

lowering DPS would work, but if that was to happen it'd be nice to see an increase in ammo 'clip' capacity.

we really need bigger maps, with more players, so that there can be multiple 'theatres' with the rail tanks operating on the edge of their range to inhibit red vehicle movements ... type of thing... imho >.<

limiting rail range would be a nice buff for DS but would essentially nerf the rail away and most likely we'd see the return of the missile tank (taking a bit but speccing into it to see why i never see any anymore[?])

lowering DPS would work, but if that was to happen it'd be nice to see an increase in ammo 'clip' capacity.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find many of the old school aka true tankers, that disagree that tanking now sucks and caters to the common cod mentality that has been infecting the game for a while now, tanking used to resemble knights jousting with the right to slaughter infantry as the prize, now its just a barbarian melee with scrubby little peasants sneaking up behind with a poisoned crossbow.

i look forward to the end of the tank spam patch and a return to tanks being about skill, unfortunately it will probably be months before vehicles get rebalanced, till then its all about militia tanks with god mode hardeners and double dmg mod railguns.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find many of the old school aka true tankers, that disagree that tanking now sucks and caters to the common cod mentality that has been infecting the game for a while now, tanking used to resemble knights jousting with the right to slaughter infantry as the prize, now its just a barbarian melee with scrubby little peasants sneaking up behind with a poisoned crossbow.

i look forward to the end of the tank spam patch and a return to tanks being about skill, unfortunately it will probably be months before vehicles get rebalanced, till then its all about militia tanks with god mode hardeners and double dmg mod railguns.

*edit* PS Adam I am disappointed you would acknowledge that loud mouthed toss pot.

we really need bigger maps, with more players, so that there can be multiple 'theatres' with the rail tanks operating on the edge of their range to inhibit red vehicle movements ... type of thing... imho >.<

limiting rail range would be a nice buff for DS but would essentially nerf the rail away and most likely we'd see the return of the missile tank (taking a bit but speccing into it to see why i never see any anymore[?])

lowering DPS would work, but if that was to happen it'd be nice to see an increase in ammo 'clip' capacity.

If missiles had a militia version, I'm sure we'd see double amped missile Sicas popping the hardened Ion Cannon Madrugars as well. They are still deadly in the right hands. With amps or proto you can OHKO most tanks, from being on the receiving end a fair bit. I haven't specced in and just run the State ones but I've popped a few Somas/Madrugars through a single armor hardener in one burst with 2 amps.

Agreed.

I'll take an example of match I'm in now.

I spawn in my MLT fit Sica, I find my position on Manus by our redline and in the first 5 mins have 2 Tank Kills.

I move up to help friendly tanks.

I spy another MLT Sica on the hill by their redline, I have him zeroed and dead to right.

There is another MLT Sica that takes me out from the other redline.

What did I do wrong here?

Answer: I left the Redline.....

I would hold back on daming tanks in general at the moment as the redline rails are unbalancing things to such a large extent that we cannot truly assess dropship and tank changes. The redline tanks are using builds that cannot be used very well on the battlefield. They can stack damage and run low HP due to the redline being their defence. This unbalances the way HP or Damage builds play off against each other in a fight.

I am not claiming tanks or dropships are good or bad this build, but that with redline rails we must restrain from judging too harshly. If tanks could not shoot from the redline (not a suggestion but a thought experiment) would they be over powered or damaging tank battles as much as they do now?

What is it that causes the gameplay you dislike and would it improve if certain tanks were limited?

If rails get nerfed then ADS will dominate the field

Your comment references a nerf which is something not mentioned in my post, yet you quoted my post. You know for example that a rail turret has a greater than 1:1 elevation. So if they could be just as effective against ADS as now if they were forced to always be out of the redline.

Also a reduction in operating parameters is not a nerf. Its a balance or at the least a change. What change to a rail would lead to the situation you fear?

Also a 15pages long thread about nerfing rails you did make, so weather (sic) or not your post says anything about a nerf you want them nerfed

Lets not forget that 1.7 HAVs are only the first step in a longer strategy. They took away a lot of stuff so they could balance the core vehicles & modules better. The fact that we can see so clearly that rebalancing is required is a result of that, so we should view this as a good thing(TM).

I imagine 1.8 (or whatever it is called) will rebalance the core HAVs somewhat, and restore some of the effectiveness of AV.

If that works out reasonably well then they can start to slowly re-introduce some of the options & variations they had before, doing so in a relatively safe and controlled manner.

Of course, I still think there's a fundamental incompatibility that no-one is tackling: the fact that we feel naturally that tanks should be badass (requiring an AV team to counter them, for example), but they still only use one of the 16 player slots on the team.

All true tankers will soon admit that in 1.7, tanking has dumbed down... So very much..

No I don't. And a rebalance is not a nerf. You can shout it at me in inflammatory language all you want but that does not make it true. You need to read that thread again. Carefully this time. Its the redline that is the issue which is a point I make time and time again in that thread yet you STILL go on about other things.

I will state it here again for you. Redline railing is the biggest issue. It is that we need to address. The other factors like the range, power etc are made overpowered by the redline. Hence the redline needs a fix before we can look at the other aspects. Combine all those factors and we have a broken game element.

I have not stated that I want the power, ROF, Range, Elevation reduced to ineffectiveness. I stated that they are unfair and costing ISK to players while those using them in the redline are not risking ISK.

Tanks really do butcher, in their current state, any chance of enjoyable gameplay.

Tanking is just who has the most Railguns, there's no need for variation in terms of turret or fits..... when MLT gear does it all why even bother speccing higher.....

Infantry is just about who has the most blaster tanks......

Sure I'll admit it was fun tormenting infantry for a couple of weeks.....not so fun now rail tanking is such a ******* chore.

Tanks really do butcher, in their current state, any chance of enjoyable gameplay.

Tanking is just who has the most Railguns, there's no need for variation in terms of turret or fits..... when MLT gear does it all why even bother speccing higher.....

Infantry is just about who has the most blaster tanks......

Sure I'll admit it was fun tormenting infantry for a couple of weeks.....not so fun now rail tanking is such a ******* chore.

tanking used to resemble knights jousting with the right to slaughter infantry as the prize, now its just a barbarian melee with scrubby little peasants sneaking up behind with a poisoned crossbow.

no variation in terms of turret or fits

To a Texan like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Gunlogi.

Reference = ISK
.

in before spkr4 awesome poasting

Tanks really do butcher, in their current state, any chance of enjoyable gameplay.

Tanking is just who has the most Railguns, there's no need for variation in terms of turret or fits..... when MLT gear does it all why even bother speccing higher.....

Infantry is just about who has the most blaster tanks......

Sure I'll admit it was fun tormenting infantry for a couple of weeks.....not so fun now rail tanking is such a ******* chore.

Agreed Monkey. I absolutely want rail tanks to be a serious threat to dropships. To be a threat they need to hit hard as the window to hit us is small and they need range to keep us at bay. But doing that from the complete safety of the redline is not fair.

I would at this point make one single change to rail tanks. That they cannot engage the operational area of the map from the redline or close proximity to it. This means the objectives and their zones. let them hit the area near their redline to help a team push out if pushed back, but stop them killing people out in the burn zone trying to have a fair and fun fight by using the redline to run unrealistic builds and hide from retaliation.

...but I don't think any solutions involving either removing the redline or disabling damage in the redline is the answer....

I don't think this is the solution. We need one, most certainly, but I don't think any solutions involving either removing the redline or disabling damage in the redline is the answer. Most of these answers, I find, come from just wanting the situation to go away, rather than figuring out how to enhance design to naturally block it.

I think for one, map design love might be able to adjust the ability for a tank to get a good perch. I mean, a hillside is easily AVable, the problem is the cliffs that the tanker can just back up a bit, and be out of AV line of sight.

Same but in the end I don't know why I bothered speccing 6 million SP into tanks only to find out that....for the most part I could have spent nothing to be equally as effective as what I am now.

STD tanks are not extremly better than MLT ones
DS are still coffins, if there is a rail tank on the map

All true tankers will soon admit that in 1.7, tanking has dumbed down... So very much..

But MLT fits are easy to kill...

TL;DR: Get Gud

Agreed that militia variants of vehicle weapons and modules should mimic the militai version of dropsuit weapons and modules: smaller clips and bigger fittings. Only the bigger fittings thing applies at the moment.

Also, while it is not done with other militia items, perhaps vehicle items (since they are so powerful) should have militia variants that are less effective instead of just less efficient. Exp: Militia weapon modifier amping damage by only 20% instead of the current 30%.

Edit: I also would like to see small laser turrets that function like laser rifles, so tanks can be turned into deadly laser shows/raves.

MILITIA dropships are coffins, with rail tanks.
Good ones, are not.

Multiple times, I've been firing at a high level (assault) dropship, and emptied my clip trying to bring it down, without success.

Got at least 4 direct hits on the thing.

Tanks would be fun IF ALL THE RAILGUN PUSSIES GOT OUT OF THEIR REDLINES!!!

He don't care, he just redline rail tanks anyway.

If rails get nerfed then ADS will dominate the field

Its a good thing you put that last bit in because the rest sounds like drug induced nonsense to me, do you even know how to fly a dropship? cause I do and the only things in that long winded pile of horse **** that made any sense was "carry AV squadies" and "rail tanker in your squad"

No I don't. And a rebalance is not a nerf. You can shout it at me in inflammatory language all you want but that does not make it true. You need to read that thread again. Carefully this time. Its the redline that is the issue which is a point I make time and time again in that thread yet you STILL go on about other things.

I will state it here again for you. Redline railing is the biggest issue. It is that we need to address. The other factors like the range, power etc are made overpowered by the redline. Hence the redline needs a fix before we can look at the other aspects. Combine all those factors and we have a broken game element.

I have not stated that I want the power, ROF, Range, Elevation reduced to ineffectiveness. I stated that they are unfair and costing ISK to players while those using them in the redline are not risking ISK.

Rails cannot shoot a Dropship from Redline to Redline on the vast majority of Maps........ Couple this with Flight Ceiling Abuse & Turret Aiming not going past 55 Degrees & the result is ADS Wins over All. I find myself moving 1/3 of the way through the Map, atop a Hillside, just to hit a Mid-High Elevated Dropship. Any further Range/Height results in the Out of Range Flare.

Also.....most of you Nimrods consider any Attack that is not immediately Visible, nor Center Field, a Redline Strike...... Utilizing Map Positioning to the far East/West is NOT a Redline Strike FFS....... & if a Dropship gets past the Mid Field Line they are literally Invulnerable to Retaliation outside of the Redline. Want me to teach you ADSers how to "Properly" and Abusively do your "Job" & have "Fun"??? Well.....here we go:

Step 1: Move to the Back of your Redline before calling in an RDV, ESPECIALLY if you know you will not be the 1st Vehicle to Spawn. This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to lose your Dropship to any form of Redberry Damage upon Spawn.

Step 2: Fly UP & AWAY. The Flight Redline is EXTENDED, thus allowing Ascencion while further diminishing the chance of being within Range of ANY DAMAGE, save a "Friendly" RDV/Dropship Collision......

Step 3: Open Map & Scout for Enemy Vehicles, or don't.....this Step is Skippable for the more Gungho without actually diminishing Effectiveness.

Step 4: Stay HIGH & fly towards the Enemy Redline. At this point you may see the Rail Flares, indicating Threat Positions. Take Note of these Positions & plan your next move.

Step 5: Remember that Redline Extension mentioned earlier??? Now is where you play "Footsies" with the Redline to get a feel for where it Begins & Ends. Note Vehicular Threat Positions & prepare to Engage.

Strp 6: Move into Optimal Positioning before Engaging. Now Descend while moving Towards your Target, & Fire while Descending. You have until 5 Seconds to deal Damage to the Target which cannot fire back ("Dogs can't look up"). Hit the Thruster Module & fly UP & AWAY. Once out of Redline simply continue to Ascend. You are now SAFE from any form of Retaliation & are in Key Positioning to continue your Assault.

Summary: UP & AWAY + Flight Ceiling + Extended Redline = Profit

Combine this with good Side Gunners or AV Infantry that can Inertia Dampen down to Assist & you have a Constant Threat, often without ever necessitating the use of Hardeners (Unless Installations are present, but that should be Priority for your Rail Tanker......sooooo yeah.)

I have yet to see ANYONE employ this Tactic..... Only TWICE, in my ENTIRE DUST 514 Lifetime, have I seen someone come somewhat close to replicating this example, & they did not lose their Dropship. A proficient Dropship Pilot provides a significant Distraction for Rails. I often don't Engage past 1/3 Field until I have assured myself that there is no Dropship Presence, be it they Retreat or Die. Only then do I press on to Engage past 1/3 Field.

But the Quality of Dropship Pilots is so severely lacking that I find myself popping these "Hovertards" without Damage Amps, like a floating Installation, then immediately move on to pressuring the other Vehicles. You want some "Real" Changes that could be made??? Here we go:

Blaster vs Vehicle/Installation Efficiency be reduced by 20%. This solidifies their Intended Role as Anti-Infantry while not completely Gimping their Viability VS Vehicles. VS LAV the Efficiency remains the same since they are Light Vehicles & are, more often than not, too fast for Rail & Missile Turning (Unless Skilled).

This puts a Triforce of VS Roles into play. Blasters engage Infantry & LAVs. Missiles engage Blasters & Installations (Fastest TTK on CRU & Depot, especially Amped) within Mid Field. Rails engage Dropships & Tanks from afar.

This puts the Missile Tanks as Enclosure Area Denial, High Alpha Anti-Blaster Support, & Installation Clean-up. Rails maintain Mid-High Alpha Outskirt Control, Enemy Redline Turret Installation Clean-up, & Dropship Control. Blasters become Infantry & LAV Clean-up.

Only under the Conditions of a Superior Pilot should the Roles become more "Flexible" (IE: Blaster Tank "Circle Strafes" Rail & Missile Tank in CQC. Missile Tank killing Infantry & LAV/Dropship @ Range. Rail Tank killing Infantry & Missile Tank in CQC.)

TL;DR: Get Gud

Side-Note: I agree that Tanking has become a Homogenized Snorefest..... I'll be on Armored Core V, where Customization matters.

MILITIA dropships are coffins, with rail tanks.
Good ones, are not.

Multiple times, I've been firing at a high level (assault) dropship, and emptied my clip trying to bring it down, without success.

Got at least 4 direct hits on the thing.

So I take it you're not a Pilot that Got Gud???

Railguns need a RoF decrease, and railgun damage mods could come down to 20%. Magazine size of 6 is more than enough as well. Cut reload time though, obviously.

Armor plates and hardeners need to be harder to fit, Gunloggis need a CPU nerf, Madrugars need a CPU buff, and railgun traverse needs to be slowed by 15% at base.

*edit* PS Adam I am disappointed you would acknowledge that loud mouthed toss pot.

I would hold back on daming tanks in general at the moment as the redline rails are unbalancing things to such a large extent that we cannot truly assess dropship and tank changes. The redline tanks are using builds that cannot be used very well on the battlefield. They can stack damage and run low HP due to the redline being their defence. This unbalances the way HP or Damage builds play off against each other in a fight.

I am not claiming tanks or dropships are good or bad this build, but that with redline rails we must restrain from judging too harshly. If tanks could not shoot from the redline (not a suggestion but a thought experiment) would they be over powered or damaging tank battles as much as they do now?

What is it that causes the gameplay you dislike and would it improve if certain tanks were limited?

in before spkr4 awesome poasting

Why did you quote me? I never said any of those things in my post. Please refrain from straw manning me. It is uncalled for.