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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
107
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Posted - 2013.12.24 23:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
First lets took at proto stats Missile Turret: 455 direct, 357.5 splash over 2.5m, fires every 1.2 secs, clip size 8 - Damage per clip 3,640 direct, 2,860 splash Rail Turret: 377 direct, no splash, fires ever .5 secs, clip size 24 - Damage per clip 4,524 Blaster Turret: 49.4 direct, fires ever .047 secs, clip size 150 -Damage per clip 7,410
The missile turret has the lowest damage per clip but it's splash damage is almost equal to a direct hit by the railgun, making it exceedingly effective vs infantry when fired from above. It's travel time and low clip size makes it a less effective AV weapon against shields but surpasses the rail turret vs armor. Missile turret: Effective vs infantry and armor vehicles/installations
The rail turret has a higher ROF than the missile turret and does well against vehicles and infantry as well but only when on a stable platform such as an LAV or tank. When mounted on a dropship, particularly a skilled incubus, it does very well against shield vehicles. However you can only fire half of it's clip before overheating so overall it's DPS ends up being lower than that of the missile turret on anything other than a shield tank. A dropship is too unstable of a platform to deliver the precise shots required to hit infantry Rail Turret: Effective vs shield tanks and, only if on a ground vehicle, infantry.
The blaster turret has a very high ROF but is worthless on a LAV or dropship. It's short range means that you have to be easily within infantry weapon range and, as you are usually exposed, will be shot out of said vehicle. On a tank they fair modestly well due to the gunner being protected but their short range, difficulty to aim, and high fitting cost makes the undesirable to fit. On an incubus it gains significant increase to ROF but it's pinpoint accuracy makes it impossible to hit anything on such an unstable platform. Against any kind of installation or vehicle the blaster is only about 44% effective vs shields and 24% vs armor. Blaster Turret: Effective vs infantry when on a ground vehicle only, particularly ineffective vs vehicles/installations.
Conclusion: The missile turret is more effective than any other turret at any function other than attacking shield tanks. It is best at killing installations, armor tanks, infantry, and equipment while other turrets struggle to fulfill even a single function. |
Princess Abi-Hime
Pradox XVI
74
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Posted - 2013.12.24 23:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good luck actually hitting anything unless you're sitting completely still with a small blaster turret.
The Metalhead Mercenary
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Ryme Intrinseca
427
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Posted - 2013.12.25 00:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:First lets took at proto stats Missile Turret: 455 direct, 357.5 splash over 2.5m, fires every 1.2 secs, clip size 8 - Damage per clip 3,640 direct, 2,860 splash Rail Turret: 377 direct, no splash, fires ever .5 secs, clip size 24 - Damage per clip 4,524 Blaster Turret: 49.4 direct, fires ever .047 secs, clip size 150 -Damage per clip 7,410
The missile turret has the lowest damage per clip but it's splash damage is almost equal to a direct hit by the railgun, making it exceedingly effective vs infantry when fired from above. It's travel time and low clip size makes it a less effective AV weapon against shields but surpasses the rail turret vs armor. Missile turret: Effective vs infantry and armor vehicles/installations
The rail turret has a higher ROF than the missile turret and does well against vehicles and infantry as well but only when on a stable platform such as an LAV or tank. When mounted on a dropship, particularly a skilled incubus, it does very well against shield vehicles. However you can only fire half of it's clip before overheating so overall it's DPS ends up being lower than that of the missile turret on anything other than a shield tank. A dropship is too unstable of a platform to deliver the precise shots required to hit infantry Rail Turret: Effective vs shield tanks and, only if on a ground vehicle, infantry.
The blaster turret has a very high ROF but is worthless on a LAV or dropship. It's short range means that you have to be easily within infantry weapon range and, as you are usually exposed, will be shot out of said vehicle. On a tank they fair modestly well due to the gunner being protected but their short range, difficulty to aim, and high fitting cost makes the undesirable to fit. On an incubus it gains significant increase to ROF but it's pinpoint accuracy makes it impossible to hit anything on such an unstable platform. Against any kind of installation or vehicle the blaster is only about 44% effective vs shields and 24% vs armor. Blaster Turret: Effective vs infantry when on a ground vehicle only, particularly ineffective vs vehicles/installations.
Conclusion: The missile turret is more effective than any other turret at any function other than attacking shield tanks. It is best at killing installations, armor tanks, infantry, and equipment while other turrets struggle to fulfill even a single function. In 1.6 the blaster was the best small turret against LAVs for a reason that these numbers don't show - it applied the damage to the merc, not the vehicle. Did that change in 1.7? |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
3340
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Posted - 2013.12.25 00:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pretty much. Which means...
OMFG we're back to where we were the build right before codex. Just toned down a little.
I'm serious. Missiles are the obvious best for small turrets (But they had infinite range then) Dropships were playable, but overshadowed by HAVs (So they'll be OP next build) Well-fit HAVs were un-killable
Just we aren't getting the random in-game crashes that we used to, and large missiles aren't the all-around best large turrets.
We used to have a time machine
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gbghg
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
4219
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Posted - 2013.12.25 00:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
small missiles have always been the best turret choice, its been that way since chrome, rails have too many downsides, blasters range is too short. missiles have always been effective against everything due to their reliability and versatility. its not that missiles are too good, its that the other turrets are just too limited. at least as an ADS pilot thats how its been. blasters and rails are simply too niche to be used widely, while missiles provide a good solid middle ground.
Lv 4 forum warrior
Bringer of Bacon
Knight of AMV's
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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
108
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Posted - 2013.12.25 02:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
What would help greatly, in my opinion, would be if they removed the overheat mechanic from rails and blasters, increased railgun direct damage, and made blasters deal a cone of damage similar to the HMG after it's most recent buff. Then blasters would be capable of hitting infantry from a dropship, railguns would better at AV than missiles but worthless vs infantry, and missiles would be a more jack-of-all-trades weapon (rather than master of all). |
Shouper of BHD
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
293
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Posted - 2013.12.25 02:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:What would help greatly, in my opinion, would be if they removed the overheat mechanic from rails and blasters, increased railgun direct damage, and made blasters deal a cone of damage similar to the HMG after it's most recent buff. Then blasters would be capable of hitting infantry from a dropship, railguns would better at AV than missiles but worthless vs infantry, and missiles would be a more jack-of-all-trades weapon (rather than master of all).
you beat me to the post and the comment. so.... dito this guy ^ |
Viktor Hadah Jr
Critical-Impact
1591
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Posted - 2013.12.25 03:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
They don't all have to have same damage per clip that is not what balance is. You are sacrificing a large max damage out put per clip for a larger max damage out put per shot.
Amarr!
Try EVE Online
Selling Templar BPO
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
322
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Posted - 2013.12.25 03:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm actually going to have to disagree with the findings in this post from an LAV perspective. Over the last couple days I've had the opportunity to squad up with X-eon from Molon Labe and we've been testing a lot of things when it comes to the effectiveness of different turrets in different situations.
Regarding Gunner Vulnerability : This is something that you really have to plan around from the beginning, you're going to need to stop the LAV in order to give the gunner an opportunity to fire the turret and doing so is going to leave said gunner inherently vulnerable during the duration. You look closely at your health, you run a Heavy Suit to soak up as much damage as possible, and you switch to the passenger seat in situations where you've taken concentrated enemy fire and need to get out of dodge. Communication with the driver in these situations is vital and will increase your survivability.
The Missile Turret : Without question the go to choice for Dropships, not sure why anyone would use anything else in that environment. On paper there's really no doubt that the Missile turret brings a combination Installation / Vehicle / Infantry killing that's hard to match. In practice though I find the turret far less effective than the Blaster and Railgun when, as you mentioned, the gun isn't fired from above. It's harder in an LAV at least to find situations where you can act on this advantage effectively and shooting at an opponent that's parallel to your current position is a much more difficult affair in this vehicle than when using any other turret type, naturally in these situations its harder to make use of its significant splash damage as well. Combine this with a smaller clip and a slower rate of fire and it was more difficult in my experience to make use of the turret in an effective way when up against other infantry.
The Blaster Turret : Most certainly NOT useless in a LAV ... though maybe the weakest turret type when significant skills haven't been applied. X-eon has level 3 proficiency to increase the tracking speed and when we run a squad together we're using the 20GJ Ion Cannons setup on a Methana frame. I can't speak for its effectiveness when skills haven't been applied to increase the tracking speed but with the setup X-eon had I was easily breaching 12-16 kills a match in the thing. Honestly unless I was being hit with concentrated fire from multiple directions I was beating out the infantry that had noticed me and had begun shooting back, the thing does a really significant amount of damage and is extremely easy to use. I never really felt like I was limited by the range in any way because in an LAV you're able to get in, do damage, and get out so effectively. In practice if not on paper, the turret is able to do its job in ground vehicles. It's interesting that you mention it's fitting cost though because I find the fact that it has the lowest CPU to fit to any turret makes them an extremely easy thing to fit in both Shield and Armor vehicles, I guess it depends on whether or not you're strapped for more PG or CPU for your vehicle though.
Rail Turret : Admittedly my personally favorite and one I have plans to skill into further due to its range and power. Hilariously effective against low flying Dropships, great at point defense, and grants the LAV a tactical sniper type turret that can take out groups of people very quickly when applied from range. I was running ADV Tier turrets and with them I could take out an installation in 2 clips. It's a turret thats much more easily utilized in an LAV because looking at an opponent parallel to your position gives you a bigger hitbox than when you're looking from above.
I'd encourage you to join our chat channel though, LAV RESEARCH, to really get a handle on LAVs with each turret type. I certainly was surprised when I found the Missile turret to be as unwieldy as it was (though maybe that's just me) and the Blaster and Rail turrets so surprisingly effective against infantry. Join us and we'll run over some raspberries together.
:D
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Nguruthos IX
PEN 15 CLUB
2357
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Posted - 2013.12.25 06:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
This hasn't been fixed yet, what makes you think it ever will be? |
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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
112
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well it never will be if attention is never brought to it, have to start somewhere. |
Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1165
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
small blasters need to be given a large cone of fire, giving it the ability to pepper an area with bullets, with the area effected based on how far away the turret is, being closer would make the gun a lot more accurate and dmging, while at a distance the weapon is more a suppression tool or finishes off weak targets.
I don't know what can be done with the railgun its always been the redheaded step child, currently it over heats way to quick and doesn't do enough dmg, it should be given a bonus vs vehicles and be especially effective against dropships.
Small Blaster: Strong Anti infantry/Weak AV weapon + bonus LAVs Small Missiles:Average Anti infantry/Average AV weapon + bonus vs armored aircraft Small Railgun: Weak Anti infantry/Strong AV weapon + bonus vs shielded aircraft
Just some thoughts on the matter. |
Nguruthos IX
PEN 15 CLUB
2367
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:Well it never will be if attention is never brought to it, have to start somewhere.
Unless CCP looks out their window and sees the message burning in the sky against the backdrop of Majoras' moon on a crash course for earth I wouldn't count on having any affect.
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Nguruthos IX
PEN 15 CLUB
2367
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
small rails are useless even at their supposed best point (killing shield vehicles) small blasters are outclassed x10 by a militia AR |
Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1165
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote: Rail Turret : Admittedly my personally favorite and one I have plans to skill into further due to its range and power. Hilariously effective against low flying Dropships, great at point defense, and grants the LAV a tactical sniper type turret that can take out groups of people very quickly when applied from range. I was running ADV Tier turrets and with them I could take out an installation in 2 clips. It's a turret thats much more easily utilized in an LAV because looking at an opponent parallel to your position gives you a bigger hitbox than when you're looking from above.
Your looking at this from a different perspective (LAVs) to my dropship perspective so I can't really disagree with that you say, but I am surprised that you consider taking out a turret with 2 clips of railgun ammo to be effective, considering a well skilled small missile turret can do it with 8 or 9 missiles in much less time. |
Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1165
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 14:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nguruthos IX wrote:This hasn't been fixed yet, what makes you think it ever will be?
Heh this game has broken you. |
Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
112
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 15:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:small blasters need to be given a large cone of fire, giving it the ability to pepper an area with bullets, with the area effected based on how far away the turret is, being closer would make the gun a lot more accurate and dmging, while at a distance the weapon is more a suppression tool or finishes off weak targets.
I don't know what can be done with the railgun its always been the redheaded step child, currently it over heats way to quick and doesn't do enough dmg, it should be given a bonus vs vehicles and be especially effective against dropships.
Small Blaster: Strong Anti infantry/Weak AV weapon + bonus LAVs Small Missiles:Average Anti infantry/Average AV weapon + bonus vs armored aircraft Small Railgun: Weak Anti infantry/Strong AV weapon + bonus vs shielded aircraft
Just some thoughts on the matter.
I agree and here is what I think needs to be done: Small blaster - Open up the shooting reticule so it is more of a cone area of effect like the HMG rather than the pinpoint accurate weapon it is now. Small Missile - Reduce direct and splash damage by 100, it will do everything modestly well then but excel at nothing in particular. Small Railgun - Increase damage by 100. It will still be almost worthless vs infantry but will be very effective vs AV. Also - Get rid of the heat build up on hybrid turrets, there is no need for it now that there is finite ammo. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1420
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Posted - 2013.12.25 16:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Have you seen the large missile turret that thing has surpassed god good and transcended space and time into an oblivion of destruction and pain where all is all but none. Yeah it's that crazy. |
Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
323
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Posted - 2013.12.25 21:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Texs Red wrote: I agree and here is what I think needs to be done: Small blaster - Open up the shooting reticule so it is more of a cone area of effect like the HMG rather than the pinpoint accurate weapon it is now. Small Missile - Reduce direct and splash damage by 100, it will do everything modestly well then but excel at nothing in particular. Small Railgun - Increase damage by 100. It will still be almost worthless vs infantry but will be very effective vs AV. Also - Get rid of the heat build up on hybrid turrets, there is no need for it now that there is finite ammo.
This notion that the Small Railgun is "worthless vs infantry" is really outdated. The thing is extremely effective against infantry in its current incarnation.
Beld Errmon wrote: Your looking at this from a different perspective (LAVs) to my dropship perspective so I can't really disagree with that you say, but I am surprised that you consider taking out a turret with 2 clips of railgun ammo to be effective, considering a well skilled small missile turret can do it with 8 or 9 missiles in much less time.
More a bullet point of what its capable of rather than something I'm really "showing off". I realize that the missile turret is better at taking out installations.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1724
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Posted - 2013.12.25 21:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Never knew that the small blasters did a fifth of the damage to Madrugars, since I don't use them myself as the pilot. Well, back to small missiles, same as last build, except for pure anti-infantry.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Delta90212
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
133
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Posted - 2013.12.25 21:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:Texs Red wrote: I agree and here is what I think needs to be done: Small blaster - Open up the shooting reticule so it is more of a cone area of effect like the HMG rather than the pinpoint accurate weapon it is now. Small Missile - Reduce direct and splash damage by 100, it will do everything modestly well then but excel at nothing in particular. Small Railgun - Increase damage by 100. It will still be almost worthless vs infantry but will be very effective vs AV. Also - Get rid of the heat build up on hybrid turrets, there is no need for it now that there is finite ammo.
This notion that the Small Railgun is "worthless vs infantry" is really outdated. The thing is extremely effective against infantry in its current incarnation.
Beld Errmon wrote: Your looking at this from a different perspective (LAVs) to my dropship perspective so I can't really disagree with that you say, but I am surprised that you consider taking out a turret with 2 clips of railgun ammo to be effective, considering a well skilled small missile turret can do it with 8 or 9 missiles in much less time.
More a bullet point of what its capable of rather than something I'm really "showing off". I realize that the missile turret is better at taking out installations. Have you even tried killing someone with it?
Fear my Minmatarian brothers.
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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
112
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Posted - 2013.12.25 23:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Trying to hit infantry with a railgun on a dropship looks like something out of a movie. Explosions everywhere but none of them quite hitting the person. |
X-eon
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
73
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Posted - 2013.12.25 23:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
We've killed several infantry with small Railgun turrets. All scouts except for brick tanked scouts are one hit KO. Medium frames 2-3 and heavy 3-4. The efficiency f the turret damage works well over 70 M too, keeping up woth the amount of hits mentioned above.
What do you do when you See "WARNING, Damage Mod Active" on an LAV? You wake up in another suit.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
284
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Posted - 2013.12.25 23:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
I've never been killed by an ADS using a blaster or rail turrett, but I can't just seem to survive one using a missile turrett if I don't have a roof extremely close by.
Foundation Seldon wrote:The Blaster Turret : X-eon has level 3 proficiency to increase the tracking speed...I was easily breaching 12-16 kills a match in the thing. Wait, so who's skill affects the turret performance? The driver's or the gunner's? |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
4319
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Posted - 2013.12.25 23:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:I've never been killed by an ADS using a blaster or rail turrett, but I can't just seem to survive one using a missile turrett if I don't have a roof extremely close by. Foundation Seldon wrote:The Blaster Turret : X-eon has level 3 proficiency to increase the tracking speed...I was easily breaching 12-16 kills a match in the thing. Wait, so who's skill affects the turret performance? The driver's or the gunner's? tis the question.
Lv 4 forum warrior
Bringer of Bacon
Knight of AMV's
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X-eon
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
73
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Posted - 2013.12.25 23:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
As we noticed, I Have the proficiency in blaster turrets while Foundation does not and he takes on my added bonus to tracking and rotation. Now the bigger question is, Will the bonus stack if we are both proficient in the same turret?
What do you do when you See "WARNING, Damage Mod Active" on an LAV? You wake up in another suit.
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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
112
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Posted - 2013.12.26 00:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
I tested this out a little bit. I called in an LAV with a rail turret, I have level III in extra ammo and my buddy level I.
The result: It takes whomever has the higher bonus, it does not stack. |
X-eon
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
73
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Posted - 2013.12.26 00:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Just for confimations sake, can you do this with at least one other gunner? I don't doubt what you're saying, I'd just like a retest to solidify that statement
What do you do when you See "WARNING, Damage Mod Active" on an LAV? You wake up in another suit.
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