Well FW does make for a good ISK sink which is necessary to combat inflation in the market. However the LP rewards are not conducive to a good risk/reward ratio. In addition the ability to "produce" LP items supports player to player trading which is healthy and necessary for the economy.

This is of course assuming we have a player market...

Whats up with that CCP? So hypothetically I play 200 wins for one faction to get level 10 standings, and im only going to make twice as much as someone who plays 3 matches? How does Risk vs Reward pan out in this one? I might as well get level 4 on all four factions and just leave it at that. This adds to the fact that no matter how good or bad you do in a match, your going to get the same reward as everyone else. The top guy in match is going to make the same LP as the bottom guy whos sniping off in the redline somewhere.

This is a serious issue CCP. Faction Warfare is going to change from being a super competitive game mode, to pretty much the same thing as pub matches except you don't get Isk...... Whats the point of that???

Look, I realize you guys probably don't want to devalue LP buy having huge rewards at level 10, but theres better ways to incentivize getting to level 10 that wouldn't effect it that much at all. For example, raising the base LP at level 10 to 2,500 would be, in my opinion, completely worth it. At level 10 you've proven your loyalty to the faction, and earning 2,500 instead of 659 would be a more then acceptable reward. OR you could do it so that at level 5 players start to get payed isk.

lvl 5: 20% isk payout (in comparison to a normal pub match)
lvl 6: 40%
lvl 7: 60%
lvl 8: 80%
lvl 9: 100%
lvl 10: 120%

This would give incentive aside from the very limited amount of specialty items in the store to play FW. Right now the amount of isk you lose in the attempt to gain LP just isn't worth it. So either something changes on the reward end of FW, or CCP is going to start seeing a lot of people forget about FW.

OR OPTION C: Just add PVE to the game and everyone will stop complaining....... Your move CCP

Is the 659 LP gain legit?

Look at this link and scroll down to the chart that says what your LP payout is at each level.....

The LP reward at level 10 is too, I agree.

659 LP is not worth it for me to grind to level 10. However, I am willing to grind for level 10 if the LP reward was set at maybe 1,000 LP.

I will say in its defence that the specialist variants of the prototype weapons can make some damn good suits, so good that you probably should be grinding them at a rate of 2 weapons per FW match at level 10 standings. Besides that, it's a very good scheme to make money off LP boosters.

isnt the isk sink the point to stop you getting a shed load of better stuff very cheap

Thanks for the update, I'll stick to regular skirmish.

Even with salvage, I'm not sure about it with the current state of the rewards. As a dedicated ninja knifer, I will likely be salvaging weapons that I can't use anyways which means that covering the cost of my gear will be difficult.

Even with salvage, I'm not sure about it with the current state of the rewards. As a dedicated ninja knifer, I will likely be salvaging weapons that I can't use anyways which means that covering the cost of my gear will be difficult.

Sign up under the boycott

odd. the graph somewhere in the big FW intro, shows a win payout for level 10, to be something obscene like 30,000 if I recall

Yup..... might as well. Unless you really want that specialty stuff. But there really isn't a whole lot of worthwhile gear to buy in the market TBH.

Adding those things on my fits would only give around 50 extra HP for my fits, so it really isn't that great anyways.

Given the math seen here and after thinking about it for a while, I guess it would be worth it if the LP payout at level 10 was perhaps 1500 LP.

With the math in the link posted, 1500 LP would net the player at least 474,555 ISK worth of LP per match assuming it's based on the worth of the proto suit the player is after.

3 days after release and you've already played ~200 FW matches and reached lvl 10? Good Lord, son, go outside.

Anyways, I play Amarr FW, so at 75 LP per match, ~600 LP sounds awesome.

Edit:
Also, I was under the impression that some of specialist items were unique to the LP stores. But yes, what makes LP worthwhile isn't necessarily what you can buy yourself with it, but selling it to other players. The player market needs to be implemented for the full effect.

Plus most people use BPO/MLT gear.

Whats up with THIS CCP? So hypothetically I play 200 wins for one faction to get level 10 standings, and im only going to make twice as much as someone who plays 3 matches? How does Risk vs Reward pan out in this one? I might as well get level 4 on all four factions and just leave it at that. This adds to the fact that no matter how good or bad you do in a match, your going to get the same reward as everyone else. The top guy in match is going to make the same LP as the bottom guy whos sniping off in the redline somewhere.

This is a serious issue CCP. Faction Warfare is going to change from being a super competitive game mode, to pretty much the same thing as pub matches except you don't get Isk...... Whats the point of that???

Look, I realize you guys probably don't want to devalue LP buy having huge rewards at level 10, but theres better ways to incentivize getting to level 10 that wouldn't effect it that much at all. For example, raising the base LP at level 10 to 2,500 would be, in my opinion, completely worth it. At level 10 you've proven your loyalty to the faction, and earning 2,500 instead of 659 would be a more then acceptable reward. OR you could do it so that at level 5 players start to get payed isk.

lvl 5: 20% isk payout (in comparison to a normal pub match)
lvl 6: 40%
lvl 7: 60%
lvl 8: 80%
lvl 9: 100%
lvl 10: 120%

This would give incentive aside from the very limited amount of specialty items in the store to play FW. Right now the amount of isk you lose in the attempt to gain LP just isn't worth it. So either something changes on the reward end of FW, or CCP is going to start seeing a lot of people forget about FW. Right now, the amount of wins it takes to go up a level goes up exponentially, but the payouts go up at a near constant slope. That's just dumb....... Ill play for one faction 50 times as much then someone else, but ill only get 2 times the reward they would normally get....... Do you see how that ratio is off?

OR OPTION C: Just add PVE to the game and everyone will stop complaining....... Your move CCP

Ambush, 380k ISK a good match, no losses.
FW State of Eternal Losses, 20k ISK in LP in a "good" match - 270k ISK in one HAV to pop 5 Somas and Sicas = -250k ISK.

How can I choose between +380k and -250k ISK? I just can't!

All joking aside, FW is an ISK sink with no reward. Pubs pay out, what, at least 4 times more if you win 50% of the time at FW at a low level. At a higher level, you're ALMOST getting pubs payouts, but almost nothing if you lose, whereas pubs always pay you a fair amount. The only benefit I see is getting prototype gear at advanced level at a higher price, or a specialist weapon to optimize one of your suits to stop an extra bullet or something.

Blame CPM Hans but also push for better pay on him too.

LP payout doesn't matter if you play for Caldari or Amarr, you'll never get any.

The main problem with FW is everyone gets the same LP payout regardless of what they did in the fight. Change this based on kills and war points and the low LP payout problem solves itself. Do more for your team and you get paid more LP. Rubber band in the MCC, fuk off your LP is mine.

No, I like how the payout is the same for everyone on the team. This prevents any form for farming on the team and the only focus is on winning the match. For once it is nice to see team members ignore and run past installations to get to the nullcanons first. In pub matches everyone rushes for the installations first, tries to be the first to destroy the installations for WP farming etc.

FW matches is a team effort, everyone from the new <1mill sp player and up to the skilled vet do their best to secure the Victory. We fight for the team and share the rewards.

In pubs we fight on contracts and are payed individually by performance. It is nice with different ways of dividing the rewards, makes the gameplay different between FW and pub matches. Please do not try to make FW matches end up like pub matches.

actually this sort of system encourages AFK farming, since you get the same amount of LP regardless of how you contribute to the battle you might as well just sit in the MCC and get the reward at the end (win or lose). And actually I have seen blue berries go straight to installations. In fact one time I saw one get into one and just pummel our own MCC with it the ENTIRE match. By rewarding players for doing good people would actually attempt to do good. Yes you could argue that it "encourages farming" but I'd rather people farm WP on the battlefield then AFK in an MCC.

If you think long term and keep in mind that you play FW for the purpose of improving your merc then Its worth it.

Everything comes down to that little bit of an edge. Imagine fighting you doppelganger, its very hard unless you have a slight edge.

The edge for newer players is using mods and suits ect. at an earlier time in the game. this allows them to compete with higher tier players.

For vets, the weapons offered cost the same amount of CPU/PG as a tier 3 for a proto. this allows for a better suit load out.

Most things bought with LP do cost about double the isk (when converting LP into isk based on proto suit costs) but its all about that edge.

If you feel different, I'm sorry for you however I do not think anything needs to change... except a few things that are unrelated to this discussion

tech the risk vs rewards in every mod in dust promotes doing as little as possible

Hahaha 2,500? Really? This would be enough LP for 16 prototype suits. The ISK end could be made in one ambush match. Paying anyone (and by anyone I really mean only the top tier players who would be willing to invest the time into doing this) 16 proto suits worth of money per win is just ridiculous. People complain enough about proto stomping as it is now. It'll only be twice as easy for them to get proto equipment as it stands now. This is more than enough.

So why can't you buy a Faction Boosters if your looking for more LP?

FW= ISK sink

I have boosters...... Right now, even if I were level 10, I would only be making 840 LP roughly. Which means I grinded 200 wins out but am only making twice as much as somebody whos grinded 3 wins out. (with a booster!) Which doesn't seem very fair to me.

lvl 5: 20% isk payout (in comparison to a normal pub match)
lvl 6: 40%
lvl 7: 60%
lvl 8: 80%
lvl 9: 100%
lvl 10: 120%

It was just a number I threw out there to justify the 200 WIN GRIND that you have to do to achieve it. Do you realize how small the amount of people at level 10 would be? Not a lot, because even that type of incentive isn't that much. Lets do a little math since you seem to have used it. To fully fit PC ready proto suits, my logistics GK0 costs me 75k isk, 375 state LP, and 585 federation LP. At level 10, assuming the payout rate is 2,500 I would be able to afford less then 5 of my proto suits per win. AND it would still cost 75k isk with the State LP as well. Sure 2,500 would be enough for 16 proto suits on there own, but what is a dropsuit without anything on it going to get you? nothing...... Proto stomping is gone because tank stomping has moved in. And hardly anyone would have access to that many LP unless they rightfully earned it through the insane grind to get it. Now.... 2,500 might be a bit excessive so ill list what I think the rate should be.

1.) 500 :3 wins
2.) 550 :6 wins
3.) 600 :9 wins
4.) 675 :15 wins
5.) 750 :28 wins
6.) 825 :45 wins
7.) 925 :70 wins
8.) 1025 :100 wins
9.) 1250 :145 wins
10.) 1500 : 200 wins

Now...... That is pretty fair I think. Given that its only twice as much the rate is now, and if you consider that the person who grinds 50 times more wins then the person who grinds only 3 wins will be making only 3 times as much as the latter person level 10 doesn't sound that OP at all. But as it stands, LP at level 10 will only break even in terms of the value of LP compared to isk. The only difference is that I don't need to grind 200 wins to get any amount of isk. I mean..... who knows. When P2P trading is introduced, perhaps the value of LP will go way up. But right now its not here, and honestly I don't see a ton of reasons why people would want to buy LP items when they need only play two matches in any of the assorted factions to get whatever they want. Of course..... laziness is a factor too. Idk..... I just really don't agree with a constant reward rate increase when the Wins needed to get those rate increases goes up at an exponential rate.

Why not try the following

• Do public contract matches to grind isk
• Use the isk you required to fund faction warfare matches
• The use the LP gained from faction warfare matches to fund your planetary conquest matches.

Then start all over again.

Fair enough about the 2,500 being just a figure but my point still stands about making double what you would be making now with public contracts. People are rewarded a second fully stocked proto suit at level 10 for every one they earn currently. Not only that but these proto suits are superior in the sense that often times the weapons/equipment/etc require less PG/CPU. The way I see it is if you go to use your own suit and lose it, the faction will be like "oh, dude, no problem just take this other one for free since you're cool with us". FW is more fun to me than pub matches since people generally take it more seriously and I see less redlined blueberries not caring. I'd play it even if there were no LP/standing.

Also as far as using items from conflicting factions, I don't do that. I'm ok with playing a few pub matches here and there with my corp when they're not trying to play FW so I make up all the ISK I need to supplement the LP in a few hours with a few ambushes or doms. I don't think there is any major item that I require that I cannot purchase at either the minmatar or gallante LP store. I understand that not all people run their fittings like this but I think the people that do benefit greatly from it in terms of LP. The point of the loyalty program is to reward loyalty so that people don't just fight for everyone to get everything they want. You can do that, but obviously it'll just be a little more of a grind.

I agree that a small fraction of people will attain the high levels but who do you think they'll be? Of course it's going to be vets who could actually make use of the the extra CPU/PG from the specialist items in the LP store. It'll be the ones who are able to win the most and will probably just be individuals from the top corps currently around. In my opinion, these people need the least about of financial incentive since they already seem to have endless funds. I don't think that they should be given more.

LP items don't require the full SP investment to use, just like AUR. I'm able to try the Core Flaylock without the last 400k SP investment. This is incentive enough for me to earn LP. Once I decide to max out the skill then I can still use the specialist weapons. What also needs to be taken into consideration is the LP booster option. This doesn't exist with ISK. Plus I've gotten at least one prototype suit or weapon in salvage every match so far in FW.

I don't know, I'm ok with the numbers as they are. Obviously I am closer to accepting your suggested scale above than the 2,500 but I'm just still nervous that it could lead to more pub stomping with better proto suits. I could be wrong, but if I'm comfortable with how I'm being rewarded now then I'm going to resist an increase considering the already large gap between the casual gamer and the vet.

Seems cool. Unfortunately I uninstalled the game yesterday after raging off a PC where I couldn't kill a single tank. =p Maybe next year I'll give this game another shot. (see what I did there?)

When all on your team play BPO suits then yes, but that's their own fault for losing.

Proto stomping is gone because tank stomping has moved in.

Blame CPM Hans but also push for better pay on him too.

Whats up with THIS CCP? So hypothetically I play 200 wins for one faction to get level 10 standings, and im only going to make twice as much as someone who plays 3 matches? How does Risk vs Reward pan out in this one? I might as well get level 4 on all four factions and just leave it at that. This adds to the fact that no matter how good or bad you do in a match, your going to get the same reward as everyone else. The top guy in match is going to make the same LP as the bottom guy whos sniping off in the redline somewhere.

This is a serious issue CCP. Faction Warfare is going to change from being a super competitive game mode, to pretty much the same thing as pub matches except you don't get Isk...... Whats the point of that???

Look, I realize you guys probably don't want to devalue LP buy having huge rewards at level 10 (in preparation for the incoming player market), but theres better ways to incentivize getting to level 10 that wouldn't effect the future market that much at all while still giving proper incentive to grind up the levels for any specific faction. For example, raising the base LP at level 10 to 1,500 would be, in my opinion, completely worth it. At level 10 you've proven your loyalty to the faction, and earning 1,500 instead of 659 would be a more then acceptable reward. OR you could do it so that at level 5 players start to get payed isk.

lvl 5: 20% isk payout (in comparison to a normal pub match)
lvl 6: 40%
lvl 7: 60%
lvl 8: 80%
lvl 9: 100%
lvl 10: 120%

In addition this would be my personal LP payout/increase per level:

1.) 500 :3 wins
2.) 550 :6 wins
3.) 600 :9 wins
4.) 675 :15 wins
5.) 750 :28 wins
6.) 825 :45 wins
7.) 925 :70 wins
8.) 1025 :100 wins
9.) 1250 :145 wins
10.) 1500 : 200 wins

This would give incentive aside from the very limited amount of specialty items in the store to play FW. Right now the amount of isk you lose in the attempt to gain LP just isn't worth it. So either something changes on the reward end of FW, or CCP is going to start seeing a lot of people forget about FW. Right now, the amount of wins it takes to go up a level goes up exponentially, but the payouts go up at a near constant slope. That's just dumb....... Ill play for one faction 50 times as much then someone else, but ill only get 2 times the reward they would normally get....... Do you see how that ratio is off?

OR OPTION C: Just add PVE to the game and everyone will stop complaining....... Your move CCP

Didn't CPM Hans argue against bring in faction warfare matches to begin with?

Incomplete features was the specific complaint.

seeing how any isk/LP conversion rate is speculation at this point, I think it's worth it to wait with the rebalancing of LP payouts till a functioning player market is introduced and LP have an isk value.