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Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1741	Posted - 2013.12.12 18:03:00 - [1] - Quote When will it be making an appearance in dust? Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 869	Posted - 2013.12.12 18:04:00 - [2] - Quote Not soon enough. !
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1351	Posted - 2013.12.12 18:24:00 - [3] - Quote It should have never had to have been implemented. They started DUST after EVE tiericide, so there is no damn excuse that Infantry have to put up with it. The worst thing is that Vehicle users, who are home-free in this area, want to have it implemented on them... it's just sad :c We need tiericide as soon as possible. The longer we keep it in, the more ingrained it will become and the bigger the resistance to change. It's going to be like those 'placeholder rifles' in the AR category. Imagine what reaction CCP would get for removing them now that the whole set is out? Shields as Weapons
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1889	Posted - 2013.12.12 18:29:00 - [4] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: It should have never had to have been implemented. They started DUST after EVE tiericide, so there is no damn excuse that Infantry have to put up with it. The worst thing is that Vehicle users, who are home-free in this area, want to have it implemented on them... it's just sad :c We need tiericide as soon as possible. The longer we keep it in, the more ingrained it will become and the bigger the resistance to change. It's going to be like those 'placeholder rifles' in the AR category. Imagine what reaction CCP would get for removing them now that the whole set is out? Are you saying there are vehicle tiers? If anything, with the massive increase of vehicle capability, anyone who thinks they can easily run a profit in protosuits is mistaken. You have to be pretty good at avoiding these deadly new guys.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1351	Posted - 2013.12.12 18:49:00 - [5] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: It should have never had to have been implemented. They started DUST after EVE tiericide, so there is no damn excuse that Infantry have to put up with it. The worst thing is that Vehicle users, who are home-free in this area, want to have it implemented on them... it's just sad :c We need tiericide as soon as possible. The longer we keep it in, the more ingrained it will become and the bigger the resistance to change. It's going to be like those 'placeholder rifles' in the AR category. Imagine what reaction CCP would get for removing them now that the whole set is out? Are you saying there are vehicle tiers? If anything, with the massive increase of vehicle capability, anyone who thinks they can easily run a profit in protosuits is mistaken. You have to be pretty good at avoiding these deadly new guys. Vehciles do not have tiers, but look back for all the moaning about them wanting 'prototype' tank chassis. Also, avoid? You can't avoid. They are faster than you, stronger than you, hit harder than you, and tank better than you. I'll be down in the buildings, you have fun out in the sunlight. Shields as Weapons
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4082	Posted - 2013.12.12 18:59:00 - [6] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: It should have never had to have been implemented. They started DUST after EVE tiericide, so there is no damn excuse that Infantry have to put up with it. The worst thing is that Vehicle users, who are home-free in this area, want to have it implemented on them... it's just sad :c We need tiericide as soon as possible. The longer we keep it in, the more ingrained it will become and the bigger the resistance to change. It's going to be like those 'placeholder rifles' in the AR category. Imagine what reaction CCP would get for removing them now that the whole set is out? Are you saying there are vehicle tiers? If anything, with the massive increase of vehicle capability, anyone who thinks they can easily run a profit in protosuits is mistaken. You have to be pretty good at avoiding these deadly new guys. No, there aren't, but some idiot vehicle users are saying there should be, so we'd then have power-creep for EVERYTHING. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11227	Posted - 2013.12.12 19:01:00 - [7] - Quote CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 871	Posted - 2013.12.12 19:05:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. Would the CPM be willing to write up overviews of how they believe it should be implemented? I'm interested in how each of your views vary. !
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 4146	Posted - 2013.12.12 19:08:00 - [9] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. seems my original thread has done something useful. also i feel sorry for those poor fools who think prototype vehicles are a good thing, they're not. not only would balance become a nightmare but standard vehicles would end up nerfed into the ground to allow for power creep. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11227	Posted - 2013.12.12 19:16:00 - [10] - Quote gbghg wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. seems my original thread has done something useful. also i feel sorry for those poor fools who think prototype vehicles are a good thing, they're not. not only would balance become a nightmare but standard vehicles would end up nerfed into the ground to allow for power creep. yours? There is a large number of folks pressing for teiricide it would be hard to pin point the origin and each with thier own languages and ideas. I originally called it refactoring player progression (as it is what it would do) and the whole CPM hates logibros by giving them pistols only started. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5869	Posted - 2013.12.12 19:18:00 - [11] - Quote CCP has made no mention of a possible tieracide. Only players who made such requests in the feedback section of the forums. But let's assume for a moment that a tieracide is in the works or is at least on the backlog of development for the next 5 years, there is a likelihood that CCP will base the tieracide on what they did in Eve Online. Take a look at Eve Online as the primary example of a tieracide done correctly. But just like Dust, Eve didn't have tieracide until way after it release. There were many ships that started off as being stepping stones towards better ships rather than having unique advantages for their tier. Mining Barges and Exhumers come to mind. But mining ships were not the only ones with this problem. Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships, etc. almost all had similar problems. But for the sake of clarity in this discussion we'll focus on the mining ships for now. About midway or so through Eve Online's evolution since its official release back in 2003, mining barges and exhumers were regarded (and still are) as the most effective mining vessels in the game. The mining barges are the tech 1 variants while the exhumers are the tech 2 variants of the mining barges. These were the ships that used strip mining modules rather than standard mining lasers for maximum yield. Mining Barges (Tech 1) Procurer = 1 strip miner; small cargo hold; weak defense Retriever = 2 strip miners; medium cargo hold; medium defense Covetor = 3 strip miners; large cargo hold; high defense Exhumers (Tech 2) Skiff = 1 strip miner; small cargo; weak defense; bonus reduction at chance of damage cloud forming when mercoxit mining Mackinaw = 2 strip miners; medium cargo; medium defense; bonus to yield of ice mining Hulk = 3 strip miners; largo cargo; high defense; bonus to yield of strip miners in general For the Mining Barge class, the Procurer is a tier 1 ship due to needing to train up only level 1 on mining barge skill book. The Retriever requires only level 2 of that same book therefore its is tier 2 and the Covetor requires level 3 and therefore it is a tier 3 ship. For the Exhumer Class, you first need to complete training up Mining Barge skill book to level 5 plus a few support skill books like Archeology. Then you needed to train up the Exhumer skill book to start using the following: Skiff = Level 1; Mackinaw = Level 2; and Hulk = Level 3. As you can see, the level of the skill needed determines the tier of the ship. If a ship requires only a level 2 skill, then that ship is a tier 2 ship. NOTE: The difference between tech and tier is that tech is determined by whether or not that ship is an extension of similar ship in the same class while tier is the level of the skill book needed for that ship In the case of the mining ships, we can now see that the Mackinaw is the tier 2 ship of the Exhumer class and is the Tech 2 variant of the Retriever since they look the same but the Tech 2 variant has special bonuses that the Tech 1 variant doesn't have. The Mackinaw is the extension of the Retriever. But here you can see the problem. If you're a dedicated mining player you're not going to keep the Retriever once you trained up to use the Covetor. And once you trained up to use the Hulk, you're not going to keep the Mackinaw around if you're not the kind of player who mines only ice. The use and utility of the ship wanes as you skill up to the higher tier ship. Essentially they have become nothing more than stepping stones and the bonuses given to the Exhumers don't seem enough of an incentive to keep them. This has been the case for a long time up until about 2 years ago when CCP decided to introduce Tieracide... but with a bit of a twist. The following changes were made: Mining Barges: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Mining_Barges:Mining_Barges Exhumers: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Mining_Barges:Exhumers As you can see, all six ships are still somewhat stepping stones to the next tier but their utility and practicality has been overhauled to make them much more useful to you even if you skilled up to the next tier. The tier 1 ships have become tanked up mini-miners that you can use for low-sec mining and maybe a few lulzy battles but have a tiny cargo hold. The tier 2 ships have become jet cans with an engine due to their massive cargo size. And the tier 3 ships have become mining yield monsters but with limits to cargo size and total EHP. This overhaul can be applied to dropsuits as well. Imagine a Scout G-1, Scout G/1-Series, and Scout Gk.0 still being tiered suits but each having unique abilities that the other tiers doesn't have. This way, if you train up to the Scout Gk.0 you'll still find the Scout G-1 and G/1-Series useful due to their overall design just like how a mining player might train up to the Hulk but might still use the Skiff if he needs maximum tank for low-sec mining. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 338	Posted - 2013.12.18 20:06:00 - [12] - Quote Remove advanced and proto suits Give standard suits proto stats. Basic suits get one suit bonus, based on sp level of the basic suit skill. Assault/logistics get two, one based off of the level in basic suits, the other based off the level in assault/logistics suit. Give militia suits and gear the old advanced stats of their respective items. For example, the militia assault rifle would have the same stats as the GEK. the militia suits would have their respective suits' advanced stats. Make militia versions of the assault and logistics suits. This gives players the ability to test a suit type out before speccing into it. Remove proto coloring, make it a skin purchasable through Aurum. I want this added because personally, the only reason I don't use a proto Caldari assault suit is the advanced one looks so much cooler.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 4180	Posted - 2013.12.18 20:09:00 - [13] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: gbghg wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. seems my original thread has done something useful. also i feel sorry for those poor fools who think prototype vehicles are a good thing, they're not. not only would balance become a nightmare but standard vehicles would end up nerfed into the ground to allow for power creep. yours? There is a large number of folks pressing for teiricide it would be hard to pin point the origin and each with thier own languages and ideas. I originally called it refactoring player progression (as it is what it would do) and the whole CPM hates logibros by giving them pistols only started. Eve Online is the primary sponsor and blame for the idea of teiricide on the pressing matter of Protostomping. As for my own view on how to execute it. Preserve all modules as they are of 1.7 in terms of progression Eliminate Basic and Advanced suits, make prototype slot layouts the official suit definition. Give vehicles similar treatment in slot layout if needed (some dont need this) Make command skills effect fitting. Then nerf the loving crap out of all the suits and vehicles fitting so at lvl 1 command the mot you are able to afford to fit at low levels is basic gear. As you level command you can fit all basics, then advances and you have to work really hard to go a full suit of prototype gear. Militias bases come prebonused but do not go up in levels. All suits and vehicle hulls have bonuses, tech 1s will be the light, medium heavy, lav, ds, hav lineup, Tech 2 is where pidgeon holing and restricted roles are shoved into the suit. Traits from tech 1 are barrowed for example lets say if a heavy class had a natural damage resistance all heavy suits might have it provided whatever they trade it in for is a justified bonus (covert ops heavy for example) yeah a lot of people have called for it, hell, ost of the good ideas and suggestions come from people like cat merc and yourself etc. but i believe my original thread on the subject was one of the main ones which brought attention to the idea. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 363	Posted - 2013.12.19 12:42:00 - [14] - Quote From what I see, CCP has been introducing tiericide slowly in the vehicles since the last couple of patches. -Unlike the Surya/Sagaris, the Vayu/Falchion were sidegrades from the standard tanks, not direct upgrades. And that was good (if we dismiss the Vayu prices). Good tankers used one or the other depending on what they needed for the match. They probably will be back with just a few changes. -The 1.6 Logi Lavs and dropships , however, were a direct upgrade from their standard variants. They were better at everything. Once you unlocked them, there was no real reason to use the standard variant anymore unless you were running short on money. They are gone now, and if they ever come back they probably wont be much like they were. -The 1.6 Assault dropship was also a direct upgrade from standard. In the end we were using it for fast deploys since the advantages it gave made it a better transport ship even with 2 less seats.. The 1.7 assault dropship is a sidegrade. You trade tank for damage, and the standard variant is still better for transport, allowing both to coexist. -The 1.6 Scout Lav was a sidegrade. But it probably was so niche that no one used it. Why would we, when dropships and LLavs could do the same job? -And now in 1.7 we have the militia tanks. I actually consider they are an example of tiericide done well. A standard tank is better than a militia one, but not so much that a militia tank can't kill the standard if they get the drop on it. My only gripe is that militia tanks should be as expensive as a standard tank fitted with basic modules, since they are almost as good and require no sp. I also like the way the vehicle modules are now. Fitting proto modules give you an advantage in game, but if someone with only basic modules bides his time and attacks you when his modules are up, he has a fair chance to beat you. That moves the game from the "SP being the deciding factor" category a little more into "Skill being the deciding factor" category, and that can only be a good thing. TL;DR I like the way CCP has been implementing Tiericide in vehicles, even if they are slow. I would also like to see tiericide implemented in infantry as well. Having played more time should not give me double the HP and 50% more damage than my opponents. Having played more time should give me the option of getting into an old Type-2 scout, for example. +1 for tiericide.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4176	Posted - 2013.12.19 12:49:00 - [15] - Quote For anyone that's worried that this would mean you "wasted your skillpionts" or anything like that, removing the suit tiers could easily pave the way for more and more relevant bonuses to suits based on skill level, so increasing the skill would still be to your advantage, and you would actually have gained rather than lost. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1397	Posted - 2013.12.19 12:57:00 - [16] - Quote gbghg wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. seems my original thread has done something useful. also i feel sorry for those poor fools who think prototype vehicles are a good thing, they're not. not only would balance become a nightmare but standard vehicles would end up nerfed into the ground to allow for power creep. This wouldn't be a problem if the "prototype" hull didn't exist. Tiercide o7
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 261	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:13:00 - [17] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: When will it be making an appearance in dust? Consider this: all suits become proto suits and unlock at level 1 for the skill that unlocks them. So you will still need basic 3 for more advanced suits. It'll help balance the game, cause noobs will be able to compete a little more, even if they have to fit militia mods on a proto level suit. For ccp balancing will be much easier as there will be less variant s to work with. Can do the same with weapons as soon as we move to a customizable variant system. How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game.
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1012	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:15:00 - [18] - Quote I just realized. if they do this, then they will HAVE to give us a respec! I'm all for it! Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 640	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:20:00 - [19] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: When will it be making an appearance in dust? Consider this: all suits become proto suits and unlock at level 1 for the skill that unlocks them. So you will still need basic 3 for more advanced suits. It'll help balance the game, cause noobs will be able to compete a little more, even if they have to fit militia mods on a proto level suit. For ccp balancing will be much easier as there will be less variant s to work with. Can do the same with weapons as soon as we move to a customizable variant system. How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Agreed. And if they change it, i want a full respec. no questions asked...
Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1791	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:25:00 - [20] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: When will it be making an appearance in dust? Consider this: all suits become proto suits and unlock at level 1 for the skill that unlocks them. So you will still need basic 3 for more advanced suits. It'll help balance the game, cause noobs will be able to compete a little more, even if they have to fit militia mods on a proto level suit. For ccp balancing will be much easier as there will be less variant s to work with. Can do the same with weapons as soon as we move to a customizable variant system. How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Progression would be increasing the fitting ability of the suit for modules. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!

Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1616	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:28:00 - [21] - Quote What's the point of Meta Levels on dropsuits, weapons, and equipment? Kind of a useless number when we already use CPU and PG to regulate what you can fit. Alyssa Milano.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1616	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:30:00 - [22] - Quote #Double post Alyssa Milano.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:52:00 - [23] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Progression would be increasing the fitting ability of the suit for modules. Honestly this is ONLY needed once they add in Tech Level II items. And right now there aren't any. Once there are, then I can see this being a more useful thing. But they still haven't finished the verisimilitude! And you are forgetting the REAL reason for doing tiercide! It was to make the unused ships useable again. If we changed it so you only needed level 1 logi suit skill to use the proto-level suits, then no one would EVER use the advanced or basic ones again (maybe militia for gaining ISK as they would be nearly free if not free). So this would change it from people using all the various suits to people all using the same exact suits. You would loose a huge variety in the game as the game would then truly be based upon the FOTM as everyone would use the same damned suits. Now if you could just readjust the ROLE BONUES to NOT be based on the skill, but instead be based upon the SUIT, then you could fix this by saying a militia suit has no role bonus, the basic suit has one role bonus, the advanced suit has a different bonus, and the prototype has a different one too. The Racial Bonuses could similarly change as well... So for an example to illustrate I'll use the Minmatar Assault: Militia Minmatar Assault Suit : no bonues (but also free) Basic Minmatar Assault Suit: +1 to dropsuit movement speed per level; +5% to sidearm weaponry clip size per level Advanced Minmatar Assault Suit: +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate per level; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed per level Prototype Minmatar Assault Suit: +3% to combat rifle effective range per level; +2% to combat rifle damage per level The specific bonuses I used above don't matter. The idea is that if you get rid of the skill level requirements on the different TIERS of suits, then you need to have some other incentive for players to want to use the "lesser" tier suits. This is done by giving each one a different role bonus like they did for the various frigates in EVE. Then they all have a use and players can pick and choose which one they like better.
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1233	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:56:00 - [24] - Quote Yes, if this was a subscription based game. As it stands... No chance, It completely destroys CCPs p[ayment model for dust 514, the whole point of tiers is to allow players to pay-up tiers for faster advancement. Therefore making CCP money so they can continue to develop the game. "We spent so much time huddling inside buildings with tanks circling outside like a swarm of sharks around bait"
Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1791	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:00:00 - [25] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Progression would be increasing the fitting ability of the suit for modules. Honestly this is ONLY needed once they add in Tech Level II items. And right now there aren't any. Once there are, then I can see this being a more useful thing. But they still haven't finished the verisimilitude! And you are forgetting the REAL reason for doing tiercide! It was to make the unused ships useable again. If we changed it so you only needed level 1 logi suit skill to use the proto-level suits, then no one would EVER use the advanced or basic ones again (maybe militia for gaining ISK as they would be nearly free if not free). So this would change it from people using all the various suits to people all using the same exact suits. You would loose a huge variety in the game as the game would then truly be based upon the FOTM as everyone would use the same damned suits. Now if you could just readjust the ROLE BONUES to NOT be based on the skill, but instead be based upon the SUIT, then you could fix this by saying a militia suit has no role bonus, the basic suit has one role bonus, the advanced suit has a different bonus, and the prototype has a different one too. The Racial Bonuses could similarly change as well... So for an example to illustrate I'll use the Minmatar Assault: Militia Minmatar Assault Suit : no bonues (but also free) Basic Minmatar Assault Suit: +0.5 to dropsuit movement base speed per level; +5% to sidearm weaponry clip size per level Advanced Minmatar Assault Suit: +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate per level; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed per level Prototype Minmatar Assault Suit: +3% to combat rifle effective range per level; +2% to combat rifle damage per level The specific bonuses I used above don't matter. The idea is that if you get rid of the skill level requirements on the different TIERS of suits, then you need to have some other incentive for players to want to use the "lesser" tier suits. This is done by giving each one a different role bonus like they did for the various frigates in EVE. Then they all have a use and players can pick and choose which one they like better. All suits would be proto slot layout and have standard fitting at gimmick. The skill would increase fitting. So there would be no need to even have militia and other suits. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1894	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:01:00 - [26] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Progression would be increasing the fitting ability of the suit for modules. Honestly this is ONLY needed once they add in Tech Level II items. And right now there aren't any. Once there are, then I can see this being a more useful thing. But they still haven't finished the verisimilitude! And you are forgetting the REAL reason for doing tiercide! It was to make the unused ships useable again. If we changed it so you only needed level 1 logi suit skill to use the proto-level suits, then no one would EVER use the advanced or basic ones again (maybe militia for gaining ISK as they would be nearly free if not free). So this would change it from people using all the various suits to people all using the same exact suits. You would loose a huge variety in the game as the game would then truly be based upon the FOTM as everyone would use the same damned suits. Now if you could just readjust the ROLE BONUES to NOT be based on the skill, but instead be based upon the SUIT, then you could fix this by saying a militia suit has no role bonus, the basic suit has one role bonus, the advanced suit has a different bonus, and the prototype has a different one too. The Racial Bonuses could similarly change as well... So for an example to illustrate I'll use the Minmatar Assault: Militia Minmatar Assault Suit : no bonues (but also free) Basic Minmatar Assault Suit: +1% to dropsuit movement speed per level; +5% to sidearm weaponry clip size per level Advanced Minmatar Assault Suit: +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate per level; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed per level Prototype Minmatar Assault Suit: +3% to combat rifle effective range per level; +2% to combat rifle damage per level the specific bonuses I used above don't matter. The idea is that if you get rid of the skill level requirements on the different TIERS of suits, then you need to have some other incentive for players to want to use the "lesser" tier suits. This is done by giving each one a different role bonus like they did for the various frigates in EVE. Then they all have a use and players can pick and choose which one they like better. So less modules or a tiny bonus, you're a dumbass if you don't know what 90% of people will choose Better to go T-1 Basic T-2 Assault, Logi, Scout, etc T-3 Specialist stuff (Assaults with special bonuses Range, Damage, Cooldown) A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1791	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:02:00 - [27] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: Yes, if this was a subscription based game. As it stands... No chance, It completely destroys CCPs p[ayment model for dust 514, the whole point of tiers is to allow players to pay-up tiers for faster advancement. Therefore making CCP money so they can continue to develop the game. No one is buying suits and other consumables with real money in large numbers. Most aur purchases are for boosters and bpo items. Ccp needs to make aur for boosters and cosmetic items only. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1894	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:02:00 - [28] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Progression would be increasing the fitting ability of the suit for modules. Honestly this is ONLY needed once they add in Tech Level II items. And right now there aren't any. Once there are, then I can see this being a more useful thing. But they still haven't finished the verisimilitude! And you are forgetting the REAL reason for doing tiercide! It was to make the unused ships useable again. If we changed it so you only needed level 1 logi suit skill to use the proto-level suits, then no one would EVER use the advanced or basic ones again (maybe militia for gaining ISK as they would be nearly free if not free). So this would change it from people using all the various suits to people all using the same exact suits. You would loose a huge variety in the game as the game would then truly be based upon the FOTM as everyone would use the same damned suits. Now if you could just readjust the ROLE BONUES to NOT be based on the skill, but instead be based upon the SUIT, then you could fix this by saying a militia suit has no role bonus, the basic suit has one role bonus, the advanced suit has a different bonus, and the prototype has a different one too. The Racial Bonuses could similarly change as well... So for an example to illustrate I'll use the Minmatar Assault: Militia Minmatar Assault Suit : no bonues (but also free) Basic Minmatar Assault Suit: +0.5 to dropsuit movement base speed per level; +5% to sidearm weaponry clip size per level Advanced Minmatar Assault Suit: +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate per level; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed per level Prototype Minmatar Assault Suit: +3% to combat rifle effective range per level; +2% to combat rifle damage per level The specific bonuses I used above don't matter. The idea is that if you get rid of the skill level requirements on the different TIERS of suits, then you need to have some other incentive for players to want to use the "lesser" tier suits. This is done by giving each one a different role bonus like they did for the various frigates in EVE. Then they all have a use and players can pick and choose which one they like better. All suits would be proto slot layout and have standard fitting at gimmick. The skill would increase fitting. So there would be no need to even have militia and other suits. MLT wouldn't hurt just to have make it like ADV gear is atm... A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4818	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:05:00 - [29] - Quote gbghg wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: gbghg wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. seems my original thread has done something useful. also i feel sorry for those poor fools who think prototype vehicles are a good thing, they're not. not only would balance become a nightmare but standard vehicles would end up nerfed into the ground to allow for power creep. yours? There is a large number of folks pressing for teiricide it would be hard to pin point the origin and each with thier own languages and ideas. I originally called it refactoring player progression (as it is what it would do) and the whole CPM hates logibros by giving them pistols only started. Eve Online is the primary sponsor and blame for the idea of teiricide on the pressing matter of Protostomping. As for my own view on how to execute it. Preserve all modules as they are of 1.7 in terms of progression Eliminate Basic and Advanced suits, make prototype slot layouts the official suit definition. Give vehicles similar treatment in slot layout if needed (some dont need this) Make command skills effect fitting. Then nerf the loving crap out of all the suits and vehicles fitting so at lvl 1 command the mot you are able to afford to fit at low levels is basic gear. As you level command you can fit all basics, then advances and you have to work really hard to go a full suit of prototype gear. Militias bases come prebonused but do not go up in levels. All suits and vehicle hulls have bonuses, tech 1s will be the light, medium heavy, lav, ds, hav lineup, Tech 2 is where pidgeon holing and restricted roles are shoved into the suit. Traits from tech 1 are barrowed for example lets say if a heavy class had a natural damage resistance all heavy suits might have it provided whatever they trade it in for is a justified bonus (covert ops heavy for example) yeah a lot of people have called for it, hell, ost of the good ideas and suggestions come from people like cat merc and yourself etc. but i believe my original thread on the subject was one of the main ones which brought attention to the idea. Meow? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:10:00 - [30] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: So less modules or a tiny bonus, you're a dumbass if you don't know what 90% of people will choose Better to go T-1 Basic T-2 Assault, Logi, Scout, etc T-3 Specialist stuff (Assaults with special bonuses Range, Damage, Cooldown) You really need to be more specific. I don't understand what you mean by "less modules" I never said anything about less modules. As for you "T-x" thing, are you referring to Tier or Tech levels? If Tier, then you are mising up all the different "classes" of suits. Scout would have each of those tiers, so would assault, so would logi, etc. Mixing them up makes everything even more "cookie-cutter" and over-simplifies this game. What your list seems to allude to is the Dropsuit Operation SKill itself where level 1 could get you access to light suits, level 3 access to medium suits, and level 5 access to heavy suits. If that is what you are trying to do?

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4819	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:11:00 - [31] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: Yes, if this was a subscription based game. As it stands... No chance, It completely destroys CCPs p[ayment model for dust 514, the whole point of tiers is to allow players to pay-up tiers for faster advancement. Therefore making CCP money so they can continue to develop the game. /me coughs something that sounds like factional boosters Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1894	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:17:00 - [32] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Killar-12 wrote: So less modules or a tiny bonus, you're a dumbass if you don't know what 90% of people will choose Better to go T-1 Basic T-2 Assault, Logi, Scout, etc T-3 Specialist stuff (Assaults with special bonuses Range, Damage, Cooldown) You really need to be more specific. I don't understand what you mean by "less modules" I never said anything about less modules. As for you "T-x" thing, are you referring to Tier or Tech levels? If Tier, then you are mising up all the different "classes" of suits. Scout would have each of those tiers, so would assault, so would logi, etc. Mixing them up makes everything even more "cookie-cutter" and over-simplifies this game. What your list seems to allude to is the Dropsuit Operation SKill itself where level 1 could get you access to light suits, level 3 access to medium suits, and level 5 access to heavy suits. If that is what you are trying to do? Okay, never mind... thought you were going on about something else I meant if there's a suit with 3H 2L slots or a 5H 4L which will most choose if you're referring to MLT-PRO I mean that it is better to just instead of having different STD, ADV and PRO bonuses to have different Tech 2 and Tech 3 Variants with different bonuses. A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:21:00 - [33] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: iceyburnz wrote: Yes, if this was a subscription based game. As it stands... No chance, It completely destroys CCPs p[ayment model for dust 514, the whole point of tiers is to allow players to pay-up tiers for faster advancement. Therefore making CCP money so they can continue to develop the game. No one is buying suits and other consumables with real money in large numbers. Most aur purchases are for boosters and bpo items. Ccp needs to make aur for boosters and cosmetic items only. Actually, there are a lot of players using the AUR gear. It provides a LOT of versatility right away. So instead of grinding forever to get to the proto-suits, you just skill into the advanced ones and buy the AUR proto versions for use in matches that you really care about like FW or PC. As for how to reconcile this with tiercide of the dropsuits (if they did that), just make it so that the AUR versions of the suits have the skill level bonuses built into them. Meaning you skill into level 1 of Minmatar Assault Dropsuit Skill from my previous example: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1632216#post1632216 Using that example you would only get the level 1 bonus on each suit with is not much. So in the Advanced example this would only be +5% shield recharge and +2% reload speed. But there could be 3 AUR versions of that suit: Advanced Minmatar Assault Dropsuit AUR level 1 - no sills need to use and gives a flat +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed Advanced Minmatar Assault Dropsuit AUR level 2 - requires level 1 Minmatar Assault Dropsuit skill to use and gives a flat +15% to dropsuit shield recharge rate; +6% to projectile weapon reload speed Advanced Minmatar Assault Dropsuit AUR level 3 - requires level 3 Minmatar Assault Dropsuit skill to use and gives a flat +25% to dropsuit shield recharge rate; +10% to projectile weapon reload speed This would still make people that only want to skill up partially into a type of suit able to pay to get the full effects as they do now.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:24:00 - [34] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Okay, never mind... thought you were going on about something else I meant if there's a suit with 3H 2L slots or a 5H 4L which will most choose if you're referring to MLT-PRO I mean that it is better to just instead of having different STD, ADV and PRO bonuses to have different Tech 2 and Tech 3 Variants with different bonuses. Oh I see. No they would nominally have the same base stats (with maybe a few slight tweaks here and there for armor, shield, etc). This would include similar if not same slot layouts.
Meeko Fent State Patriots Templis De Novo 1720	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:36:00 - [35] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: CPM has been hard pressing for this and are unanimous on the 'concept' now how to go about it varies between cpms though. Compromise time? DUST is a half decent game. Be happy its free.
Meeko Fent State Patriots Templis De Novo 1720	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:38:00 - [36] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: iceyburnz wrote: Yes, if this was a subscription based game. As it stands... No chance, It completely destroys CCPs p[ayment model for dust 514, the whole point of tiers is to allow players to pay-up tiers for faster advancement. Therefore making CCP money so they can continue to develop the game. No one is buying suits and other consumables with real money in large numbers. Most aur purchases are for boosters and bpo items. Ccp needs to make aur for boosters and cosmetic items only. Yeah... I want to paint all my suits bright safety orange. Just fixing the roads man. Don't hit me! DUST is a half decent game. Be happy its free.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1894	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:48:00 - [37] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Killar-12 wrote: Okay, never mind... thought you were going on about something else I meant if there's a suit with 3H 2L slots or a 5H 4L which will most choose if you're referring to MLT-PRO I mean that it is better to just instead of having different STD, ADV and PRO bonuses to have different Tech 2 and Tech 3 Variants with different bonuses. Oh I see. No they would nominally have the same base stats (with maybe a few slight tweaks here and there for armor, shield, etc). This would include similar if not same slot layouts. Okay I get you I like it A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Thorn Badblood Dust2Dust. Top Men. 117	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:02:00 - [38] - Quote Tiercide is all well and good but first they need to fix the skills that do nothing but unlock the next tier. Anyone trained dropsuit command to 5? I don't know anyone who has or why they would even bother. D2D. A Non-Prophet Organization
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1894	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:04:00 - [39] - Quote Thorn Badblood wrote: Tiercide is all well and good but first they need to fix the skills that do nothing but unlock the next tier. Anyone trained dropsuit command to 5? I don't know anyone who has or why they would even bother. Agreed A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 730	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:05:00 - [40] - Quote I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature. In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles. I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil). Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea

Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1895	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:11:00 - [41] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature. In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles. I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil). CCP won't fix the academy unless something is broken they don't want it A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 863	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:23:00 - [42] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature. In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles. I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil). ...and this is why I will never approve tiercide for dropsuits. Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1! LOL Commando LOL Plasma Cannon
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 263	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:31:00 - [43] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Vell0cet wrote: I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature. In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles. I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil). ...and this is why I will never approve tiercide for dropsuits. And I agree with you for how things are setup now, but in the future, they WILL release Tech Level II items and then Tiercide becomes more necessary. That is why I suggested something like: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1632216#post1632216 Change the names of the suits to be whatever you want so that it's like the EVE example you made with the different ship names, but it amounts to the same thing. I didn't say that the different suits wouldn't have different costs in ISK. And as I stated, they can have somewhat (but equally balanced) layouts and stats to better effect their roles etc. But the end result is each suit would still have a "purpose" and get used just as you say you are using them now. some would be more expensive, while others less so, but still all of them useful.
Tiny Pineapple Army of 420's Lokun Listamenn 46	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:30:00 - [44] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature. In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles. I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil). You're forgetting that the cost of dropsuits only make up a small portion of the cost of your fittings, the rest is modules, equipment and weapons. Dropsuits will have tiercide but everything else won't so if you want to risk less ISK then use basic modules and weapons.


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