DUST Search - tiericide

Alldin Kan wrote:

Vell0cet wrote:

I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature.

In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles.

I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil).

...and this is why I will never approve tiercide for dropsuits.


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Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 261	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:13:00 - [1] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: When will it be making an appearance in dust? Consider this: all suits become proto suits and unlock at level 1 for the skill that unlocks them. So you will still need basic 3 for more advanced suits. It'll help balance the game, cause noobs will be able to compete a little more, even if they have to fit militia mods on a proto level suit. For ccp balancing will be much easier as there will be less variant s to work with. Can do the same with weapons as soon as we move to a customizable variant system. How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:52:00 - [2] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: How about they finish the verisimilitude of the game FIRST before adding in new stuff like that. And changing suits to be accessible like that would ruin the whole basis for trying to have a feeling of progression in the game. You work hard to get the SP's needed to finally unlock that proto-suit. It gives a feeling of accomplishment that is part of the core of this game. Progression would be increasing the fitting ability of the suit for modules. Honestly this is ONLY needed once they add in Tech Level II items. And right now there aren't any. Once there are, then I can see this being a more useful thing. But they still haven't finished the verisimilitude! And you are forgetting the REAL reason for doing tiercide! It was to make the unused ships useable again. If we changed it so you only needed level 1 logi suit skill to use the proto-level suits, then no one would EVER use the advanced or basic ones again (maybe militia for gaining ISK as they would be nearly free if not free). So this would change it from people using all the various suits to people all using the same exact suits. You would loose a huge variety in the game as the game would then truly be based upon the FOTM as everyone would use the same damned suits. Now if you could just readjust the ROLE BONUES to NOT be based on the skill, but instead be based upon the SUIT, then you could fix this by saying a militia suit has no role bonus, the basic suit has one role bonus, the advanced suit has a different bonus, and the prototype has a different one too. The Racial Bonuses could similarly change as well... So for an example to illustrate I'll use the Minmatar Assault: Militia Minmatar Assault Suit : no bonues (but also free) Basic Minmatar Assault Suit: +1 to dropsuit movement speed per level; +5% to sidearm weaponry clip size per level Advanced Minmatar Assault Suit: +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate per level; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed per level Prototype Minmatar Assault Suit: +3% to combat rifle effective range per level; +2% to combat rifle damage per level The specific bonuses I used above don't matter. The idea is that if you get rid of the skill level requirements on the different TIERS of suits, then you need to have some other incentive for players to want to use the "lesser" tier suits. This is done by giving each one a different role bonus like they did for the various frigates in EVE. Then they all have a use and players can pick and choose which one they like better.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:10:00 - [3] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: So less modules or a tiny bonus, you're a dumbass if you don't know what 90% of people will choose Better to go T-1 Basic T-2 Assault, Logi, Scout, etc T-3 Specialist stuff (Assaults with special bonuses Range, Damage, Cooldown) You really need to be more specific. I don't understand what you mean by "less modules" I never said anything about less modules. As for you "T-x" thing, are you referring to Tier or Tech levels? If Tier, then you are mising up all the different "classes" of suits. Scout would have each of those tiers, so would assault, so would logi, etc. Mixing them up makes everything even more "cookie-cutter" and over-simplifies this game. What your list seems to allude to is the Dropsuit Operation SKill itself where level 1 could get you access to light suits, level 3 access to medium suits, and level 5 access to heavy suits. If that is what you are trying to do?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:21:00 - [4] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: iceyburnz wrote: Yes, if this was a subscription based game. As it stands... No chance, It completely destroys CCPs p[ayment model for dust 514, the whole point of tiers is to allow players to pay-up tiers for faster advancement. Therefore making CCP money so they can continue to develop the game. No one is buying suits and other consumables with real money in large numbers. Most aur purchases are for boosters and bpo items. Ccp needs to make aur for boosters and cosmetic items only. Actually, there are a lot of players using the AUR gear. It provides a LOT of versatility right away. So instead of grinding forever to get to the proto-suits, you just skill into the advanced ones and buy the AUR proto versions for use in matches that you really care about like FW or PC. As for how to reconcile this with tiercide of the dropsuits (if they did that), just make it so that the AUR versions of the suits have the skill level bonuses built into them. Meaning you skill into level 1 of Minmatar Assault Dropsuit Skill from my previous example: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1632216#post1632216 Using that example you would only get the level 1 bonus on each suit with is not much. So in the Advanced example this would only be +5% shield recharge and +2% reload speed. But there could be 3 AUR versions of that suit: Advanced Minmatar Assault Dropsuit AUR level 1 - no sills need to use and gives a flat +5% to dropsuit shield recharge rate; +2% to projectile weapon reload speed Advanced Minmatar Assault Dropsuit AUR level 2 - requires level 1 Minmatar Assault Dropsuit skill to use and gives a flat +15% to dropsuit shield recharge rate; +6% to projectile weapon reload speed Advanced Minmatar Assault Dropsuit AUR level 3 - requires level 3 Minmatar Assault Dropsuit skill to use and gives a flat +25% to dropsuit shield recharge rate; +10% to projectile weapon reload speed This would still make people that only want to skill up partially into a type of suit able to pay to get the full effects as they do now.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 262	Posted - 2013.12.19 16:24:00 - [5] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Okay, never mind... thought you were going on about something else I meant if there's a suit with 3H 2L slots or a 5H 4L which will most choose if you're referring to MLT-PRO I mean that it is better to just instead of having different STD, ADV and PRO bonuses to have different Tech 2 and Tech 3 Variants with different bonuses. Oh I see. No they would nominally have the same base stats (with maybe a few slight tweaks here and there for armor, shield, etc). This would include similar if not same slot layouts.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 263	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:31:00 - [6] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Vell0cet wrote: I hate the idea of tiericide. It destroys the risk vs. ISK mechanic of this game, which is its most compelling feature. In EVE there was never a reason to fly certain ships because they were stepping stones. Tiericide addressed this by making all ships have relatively equal power within a category, but they still have huge meta differences (e.g. The Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Legion). A DUST analog would be like making sure the Sentinals and Commando suits were equally as strong in their respective roles. I find myself running STD, ADV, and PRO tier suits all of the time depending on the situation. Making choices about how much ISK to lay on the line each respawn is one of the most interesting/compelling dynamics this game has to offer. If this is being considered primarily to combat the problems with proto stomping new players and ruining the NPE, there are MUCH better alternative solutions that don't break the game. I would like to see an optional 2nd tier academy where new players can play in easier matches up to x SP (somewhere around 2-5 mil). ...and this is why I will never approve tiercide for dropsuits. And I agree with you for how things are setup now, but in the future, they WILL release Tech Level II items and then Tiercide becomes more necessary. That is why I suggested something like: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1632216#post1632216 Change the names of the suits to be whatever you want so that it's like the EVE example you made with the different ship names, but it amounts to the same thing. I didn't say that the different suits wouldn't have different costs in ISK. And as I stated, they can have somewhat (but equally balanced) layouts and stats to better effect their roles etc. But the end result is each suit would still have a "purpose" and get used just as you say you are using them now. some would be more expensive, while others less so, but still all of them useful.