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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
451
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi folks, This thread is an attempt to put together a calm, rational list of scout underpoweredness. Please first note what this thread is NOT:
- It is not a place to rant.
- It is not a place to put in random pie-in-the-sky wishes for scouts.
This is a place to point out where *current mechanics and spec for the scout simply dont make sense.
Hopefully, the initial items set a clear example to follow. If you play scout, and have other basic things like this to point out, please add.
- It makes no sense that the gallente scout variant, has a walking speed, that is almost the same as a minmatar MEDIUM suit. 5.5m/s vs 5.3m/s
- It makes no sense that the gallente scout variant, has a sprinting speed, that is almost the same as a minmatar MEDIUM suit. 7.6m/s vs 7.4m/s
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
451
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved for future post. Please post your comments after this one.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5598
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
1. It makes no sense that an Allotekl Nanohive has more EHP than the scout suit. 2. It makes no sense that I can't continue sprinting while initiating a nova knife quick slash. 3. It makes no sense that I can't sprint with the nova knife charge held. 4. It makes no sense that we still didn't get any cloaking equipment. 5. There are very little to almost no maps in the game that favor scouts. Even the cities are becoming less safe for scouts. Often times, I'm thrown into matches that never favor scouts. 6. Back Pedaling is the same speed as forward movement speed. This shouldn't be the case.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
793
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scouts lack a useful function on the battlefield that cannot be executed better by another role (aside from running to null canons at the start of a match)
The Gallente scout progresses from 1H/2L to 2H/2L from STD to ADV. The gallente's specializes in modules only available in the low slots. This means the Gallente scout does not get as much benefit as it should by using an Adv suit over a Std suit.
!
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knight of 6
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
775
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
higher ehp, our ttk is too low. I am tired of shooting people in the back just to have then turn around and redecorate the room with me.
faster, we traded off our ehp for speed and stealth. we aren't really any faster than med frames.
stealthier, we traded off our ehp for speed and stealth. yet at maxxed out dampening we can't push below active scanners passively. and don't have the slots to dampen avalible.
BONUS POINTS: give the shotgun a longer range and higher rof so it is more useful.
"God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon
Ko6, scout, tanker.
CLOSED BETA VET
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noob cavman
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance
256
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Less chopped framerate when going for knifing duty and tracking a target. More pg/cpu to help with survivability or alpha damage capabilities speed to be a thing again and not for nostalgic memories wouldn't say no to the basic specialist shotgun making a return Less penalty on stacking kincats extra slot on each proto type wouldn't be too bad. To show the true damage on the shotgun and not by pellet return of two equipment slot scouts more shotguns
My view on knives..... I DON'T KNOW WHAT IM DOING @_@
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
1608
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think a real problem is the fact that there is practically no maps that favor Scouts.
Everything is either in a city or complex, where explosive spam makes you useless; or in an open field where you have barely any cover whatsoever.
And when you have no cover, it's impossible to remain stealthy and sneak up on people. That and your extremely low eHP means that when anyone even looks at you, your dead.
My Very First Thread About Tanks
-HAND
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Rich o
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
119
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
It makes no sense that the gallente suit looses 1 high slot from ADV to PRO It makes no sense that only the gk0 with profile dampening at 5 is able to avoid the most powerful active scanner A scan profile of 45 makes no sense It makes no sense that can be outperformed by meds and logis at what scouts are ment to do It makes no sense that installations can scan everyone It makes no sense that you need more than 2 shots with a proto-shotgun to drop proto-suits The "marginal error" message makes no sense A scan range oft 16m makes no sense It makes no sense that heavies can turn around as fast as scouts. It makes no sense that most suits can backpedal nearly as fast as a scout can walk forward
That's pretty much everything i can think oft right now. Maybe i will add more points after a few games
2nd place in EU squad cup
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
2633
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Posted - 2013.12.05 21:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:It is a specialist suit, without an actual specialty.
This one's my favorite |
Tch Tch
Red Shirts Away Team
43
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Posted - 2013.12.05 21:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well I'm a noob but I do play stealthy. At the moment my stealthiest suit isn my basic Gallente suit on my ALT. It is my MLT medium on my main with 3 enhanced Dampeners... Sure I give up armour but it has more eHP then my scout does.
I would like my scouts profile to lower when walking.
Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
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Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
2815
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Posted - 2013.12.05 21:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Minja melee bonus is lacking, we're supposed to be 'near unmatched' in hand to hand combat.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 2
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
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Boot Booter
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
209
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Posted - 2013.12.05 21:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
OK first off all I wouldn't use the minmatar medium frame as reason why the scouts are 'too slow'. The minmatar medium suffers from the same problems that scouts do as it is somewhat of a hybrid between normal medium and light frames. Following the logic on the speed of suits, the ammar scout for example should have the same speed as the minmatar medium. I think the speed of scouts does make sense in this regard.
What the real problem is
1) hit detection was improved to the point where sometimes it feels like if you shoot close to you're target the game says 'meh close enough' and you get a hit marker. OK fine, we can all live with this because it's better than the opposite but it definitely has lower TTK.
2) The auto aim. This thing is so ridiculously good it's not funny. I have turned it on once to test whether the QQers had a point. They do. It actually aims for you at certain ranges. The worst part is it seems to do a really great job when the enemy is running perpendicularly to you aim, something scouts rely on to escape. It kinda makes me sad to know so many continue to use it and think they are good.
3) the dispersion on hip fire is totally wrong. I don't know exact numbers but get a friend and hip fire with the center of the cross hairs just to the side of the target but with the target still within the cross hair section. What you will find is that very few bullets hit the target. I've actually found that most bullets follow along the exact center of the hip fire cross hairs.
Combine these three things and you have a recipe for disaster for scouts. Numbers 1 and 2 drastically lower TTK and reduce escapability. The third point makes it easy for enemies to shoot quite accurately while bunny hopping and two step strafing in turn making it hard for low HP suits to finish off an enemy before their high HP and DPS catch up.
Mix all of this in with a clearly OP active scanner...
Remove AA and reduce weapon damage (or increase suit hp).
Fix hip fire dispersion so that AR scrubs can't melt people as easily from hip fire.
Stick with what you like and don't fall into the FOTM crowd. These are just tryhard scrubs who want to feel good about themselves even if that means using OP gear and switching playstyles. The scout will rise again. |
Cass Caul
439
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Posted - 2013.12.05 21:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Back on the roll of Scanning. That's the Gallente Scout's niche. Active scanners have a scan angle, yet this has no bearing on actually using it as twirling around in a circle gives you a perfect 360-¦ vision A single equipment slot item completely invalidates passive scanning. the lowest precision a Gallente scout can have is 32.4, the longest range a Gallente Scout can have is 102 meters using 4 complex range amplifiers, the lowerst profile signature is 14.2 using 4 complex profile dampeners Precision on scanners: 46 for STD, 36 for ADV, 28 for PRO and 15 for PRO. Range on scanner: lowest is 75 highest is 200, nearly all are at 100m
The Scout suit that's role is about passive scanning needs to dedicate all five modules it has, to be as effective as an ADV Active Scanner that only takes a single equipment slot and sacrifices stealth to do it.
[Side Note: people! quit complaining about the ADV Gallente Scout slot layout. it is a hold over from Chrom/Beta where slot layout progression was 1/2. 2/2, 3/3. It is not "losing a slot" it should have been 1/3 from the beginning]
Things that Scouts lost since Chromosome: Speed, base movement and sprint was reduced significantly. Scan Radius: original value was 25 meters. 1 Second delay in Stamina Regeneration after sprinting.
Slot values! Original prototype scout suit had 6 slots, all scouts only have 5 slots now.
Sugestion/Hope: Like with Afterburners put a limit of 1 on Kinetic Catalyzers per suit and raise Scout sprint speed and Scout movement speed by 15% As well as a limit of 1 on Cardiac Regulators while increasing Scout Stamina and Stamina Regeneration by 20%
An Amarr Assault suit should not have the same base Stamina as a Scout. don't reduce the Amarr Assault's stamina but increase the Scout's
Remove Installations' innate scanning. period. AT MOST it should have a 1 meter range an a Precision of 46db
+ÉߦëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
A girl, on the internet?! I roll to disbelieve.
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Tch Tch
Red Shirts Away Team
43
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Posted - 2013.12.05 21:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Make AA only available if you could normally scan the suit. If your suit lacks enough precision you can't get an auto aim lock.
Makes precision modules more valuable. Means unadjusted a medium can't AA a scout but a scout can AA medium.
So roll it into the suit mechanics.
Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
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Cass Caul
439
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Also! I want increased sensitivity. I play on 100./100 on the DS3 and it feels horrible sluggish when I run around witha shotgun in a speed fit suit.
+ÉߦëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
A girl, on the internet?! I roll to disbelieve.
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
463
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm going to post an additional "more details" post on my own thread :) because I want the higher level to stay clean.
More details for a scan precision and range comparison
The best combination of passive precision+ range a scout can do, with complex range, complex precision, is with the adv suit. complex range gives 45%, 101%, 153%, 185% complex precision gives -20%, -33.9%, -41.45% (numbers from http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties )
So, an ADV minmatar scout should be able to get 16* 1.5 * 2.01= 48m, @ (45 * .9 * (1-.33)) = 27.1dB
A gallente medium proto, with 3h/4l, should be able to get 10 * 1.5 * 2.85 = 42m, @ (55 * .9 * (1- .41)) = 29.2 dB
So.. Fairly comparable passive scan capabilities, but with 330HP instead of 170 yes, it's slower and more visible. That being said, it will be able to likewise see a very high number of scouts that attempt to sneak up on it.
The medium would, for example, be able to see the hypothetical ADV minmatar scout above, who would have a scan profile of, at best, 45 * .9 * .75 =30.3dB IF scout suit AND dampening skills were CAPPED!
From 40m meters away!!
Visible from 40m = Dead Scout. |
Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention
845
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:OK first off all I wouldn't use the minmatar medium frame as reason why the scouts are 'too slow'. The minmatar medium suffers from the same problems that scouts do as it is somewhat of a hybrid between normal medium and light frames. Following the logic on the speed of suits, the ammar scout for example should have the same speed as the minmatar medium. I think the speed of scouts does make sense in this regard.
What the real problem is
1) hit detection was improved to the point where sometimes it feels like if you shoot close to you're target the game says 'meh close enough' and you get a hit marker. OK fine, we can all live with this because it's better than the opposite but it definitely has lower TTK.
2) The auto aim. This thing is so ridiculously good it's not funny. I have turned it on once to test whether the QQers had a point. They do. It actually aims for you at certain ranges. The worst part is it seems to do a really great job when the enemy is running perpendicularly to you aim, something scouts rely on to escape. It kinda makes me sad to know so many continue to use it and think they are good.
3) the dispersion on hip fire is totally wrong. I don't know exact numbers but get a friend and hip fire with the center of the cross hairs just to the side of the target but with the target still within the cross hair section. What you will find is that very few bullets hit the target. I've actually found that most bullets follow along the exact center of the hip fire cross hairs.
Combine these three things and you have a recipe for disaster for scouts. Numbers 1 and 2 drastically lower TTK and reduce escapability. The third point makes it easy for enemies to shoot quite accurately while bunny hopping and two step strafing in turn making it hard for low HP suits to finish off an enemy before their high HP and DPS catch up.
Mix all of this in with a clearly OP active scanner...
Remove AA and reduce weapon damage (or increase suit hp).
Fix hip fire dispersion so that AR scrubs can't melt people as easily from hip fire.
Stick with what you like and don't fall into the FOTM crowd. These are just tryhard scrubs who want to feel good about themselves even if that means using OP gear and switching playstyles. The scout will rise again. Will it be too much if they get rid of the crosshair in FW and PC? Another problem is when enemies go through you in cqc. It's absolutely ridiculous. Do you know what I mean? |
Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention
845
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
What the hell is CCP going to do about our role!!...*clears throat Sorry I lost it there for a second. |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
160
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Since we are being so constructive... Some groundwork needs to be defined. First off there is a difference between a "light suit" and a "scout suit" and for that matter "pilot suit" should be included in this discussion. Additionally a clear understanding of the difference between a role bonus and a racial bonus is needed.
So to start off, the light suit. The light suit receives no bonuses (a mistake imo, as it should just receive its racial bonus). It is the model from whence all other derivatives are derived from. What do I mean by that? Well for medium suits you have:
Medium Suit ===> Assault Suit or Logistics Suit or some other future suits...
The basic medium suit skill is needed before you can move on to a more specialized variant like the Assault or the Logi. Similarly for the Scout you must first learn the light suit skill:
Light Suit ===> Scout Suit or Pilot Suit or some other future suits...
Why is this most obvious distinction being pointed out? Because currently if you ask 10 different people what a Scout suit is supposed to do, you will get 10 different answers BECAUSE they are not taking this idea of specialization for the light suit into account.
Next the distinction between a racial bonus and a role bonus. A racial bonus is one that is applied to a suit because its particular race favors it. So for Minmatar this would be a melee damage bonus for example because they favor strength and hand-to-hand combat with simple weapons. A role bonus is a bonus that is there because that is the specialization for which that suit was designed to do. For a piloting suit that could be a reduction in active vehicle module cooldown times. It's there to make the suit better at that one thing than any other suit (in this case piloting a vehicle).
So now that we have defined those two things, we can move forward with a common ground of understanding.
So first let's go over some racial profiling...
Minmatar Light Suit Skill = +5% melee damage bonus per level Galente Light Suit Skill = +10% bonus to dropsuit scan radius per level (should really be a shotgun bonus) Caldari Light Suit SKill = currently not defined, i would suggest a possible sniper rifle bonus Amarr Light Suit Skill = currently not defined, I would suggest a scrambler pistol bonus
Next let's go over role bonuses:
basic no-nothing light suit = nothing (should at least get the racial bonuses from above) Scout Suit Skill = 5% reduction to scan profile per level Pilot Suit Skill = (this is still rumored) +10% reduction in active vehicle module cooldown time per level
No the idea is that if you are a Minmatar Pilot you combine the Minmatar racial bonus for the light suit with the role bonus for the Pilot Suit to get = +5% melee damage bonus per level; +10% reduction in active vehicle module cooldown time per level
So using that as a guide I believe what players want are more light suit specializations. For instance, everyone seems to think that there should be a "Slayer" class for lgiht suits, so for that role maybe:
Slayer Suit Skill = 10% per level reduction to CPU and PG requirements of all biotics
Which results in a (theoretical) Amarr Slayer getting = {some scrambler pistol bonus}; 10% per level reduction to CPU and PG requirements of all biotics
Another role that seems to be missing is a more stealthy or cloaky role. Unfortunately this one would have to wait until a cloaking mechanic came out for the game but I would theorize something like:
Covert Operations Suit Skill = Ability to fit and operate active camouflage device. (or call it a personal cloaking device)
So now you get a (theoretical) Caldari Covert Ops getting = {some sniper rifle bonus}; Ability to fit and operate active camouflage device.
As you can see the ideas and possibilities are there, it just takes CCP to finally flesh out and define the roles and role bonuses better to make it work right.
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Boot Booter
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
211
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tch Tch wrote:Make AA only available if you could normally scan the suit. If your suit lacks enough precision you can't get an auto aim lock.
Makes precision modules more valuable. Means unadjusted a medium can't AA a scout but a scout can AA medium.
So roll it into the suit mechanics.
That's an interesting and unique idea. I like it. Gives AA 'realistic' sense as if it were a computer aided aiming system within the suit. Would actually bring diversity to fittings as it would be a battle of accuracy, stealth, and HP instead of just HP. Too bad ccp will never do this. |
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
466
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thanks for taking the time to write, guys. Please keep in mind, though, like the first post says: this is not a wishlist thread. This is a "what is broken about current mechanics for scout" thread. |
Oswald Rehnquist
784
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
This about covers all of it
Cass Caul wrote:
The original Archetype Scout was the Arbiter. That build is worthless now. Sniper Rifles don't do enough damage and with the size of the maps now, no one is going to be within scanning range for the "stealth" to be meaningful. So Sniping relies on Armor plates and damage mods. Scouts get 1 or the other.
The Hunter Scout: The role seems like a good idea, until you realize flanking doesn't work because you start shooting someone and it takes a full clip to kill them while they only need 10 bullets to kill you. While there are so many spots for uplinks that are simply impossible to destroy.
The Infiltrator Scout: Made useless by Installations have 0dB scanners that are somewhere in the range of 20 to 50 meters. Active Scanners being unbeatable makes it all the worse.
The CQC Scout. Same with Hunter, as the difference between the two is engagement range. Needs more raw damage output and the ability to avoid damage.
also lol KNs.
Below 28 dB
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
799
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Thanks for taking the time to write, guys. Please keep in mind, though, like the first post says: this is not a wishlist thread. This is a "what is broken about current mechanics for scout" thread.
However, one of the many things broken about scouts is we are missing nearly everything in one of our specialties, E-War, which would count as both a broken mechanic and a wishlist.
!
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Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention
846
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Tch Tch wrote:Make AA only available if you could normally scan the suit. If your suit lacks enough precision you can't get an auto aim lock.
Makes precision modules more valuable. Means unadjusted a medium can't AA a scout but a scout can AA medium.
So roll it into the suit mechanics. That's an interesting and unique idea. I like it. Gives AA 'realistic' sense as if it were a computer aided aiming system within the suit. Would actually bring diversity to fittings as it would be a battle of accuracy, stealth, and HP instead of just HP. Too bad ccp will never do this. Aim assist just sounds stupid. |
GRIM GEAR
NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention
107
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
I am concerned at how close the medium assaults suits movement and sprinting speed is compared to scouts for example: Minmatar assault suit has 7.4 sprint speed, Minmatar scout suit has 7.9 sprint speed. Gallente assault suit has 7.0 sprint speed and Gallente scout suit has 7.6 Sprint speed.
Now that's not a lot of deviation, considering the differences in totat ehp and module count when comparing the assault suit to the scout suit. Its seems really flawed to me it just does not make much sense the scout suits base movement and sprint speed should be at least 20% higher than their assault counterparts.
Which would make the Minmatar scout have 8.88 sprint speed compared to 7.4 for Minmatar assault. The Gallente scout would have a 8.4 sprint speed compared to the Gallente assaults sprint speed of 7.
Now buff wise the Minmatar scout suit would have a sprint speed increase of 0.98 and the Gallente scout would have a sprint speed increase of 0.80. That would certainly go a long way in helping to balance the scout suit and make it stand out from the med frames.
It's a bird!
No it's a plane!
Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
466
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
GRIM GEAR wrote:I am concerned at how close the medium assaults suits movement and sprinting speed is compared to scouts for example: Minmatar assault suit has 7.4 sprint speed, ... ...Gallente scout suit has 7.6 Sprint speed.
And dont forget, a minmatar assault suit, with maxed biotics skill, has 7.7 sprint speed, no modules required.
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Morathi III
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
64
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:Also! I want increased sensitivity. I play on 100./100 on the DS3 and it feels horrible sluggish when I run around witha shotgun in a speed fit suit. Plz make this not happen!!! I play with a sensitivity of 10/10, ill suggest to make more scale for sensitivity, every 5 instead of every 10 so i will be play at 5/5 and you on a higher scale, if they do your idea im doomed |
Draxus Prime
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
2091
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
currently its just an assault suit with less hp... not very specelized
GǃWhat is life? life, n.: A whim of several billion cells to be you for a while." - Draxus Prime
Closed beta vet
Scout
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Suanar Daranaus
Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic
74
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
CPU/PG + Slots.
Scouts need more. Even with Eng and Elec cores to 5, Damp/Scan/Amp to 4's, Light weapons lvl 5 Dam mods lvl 5 side arm 4 and more I cant seem to fit or specialize to make an eff fit and remain sneaky and fast or anything.
Most seem to be noting Gal Scouts here but I run Min , (ADV ) atm. I feel for the Gal scouts but the Min seem to still be under the thumb of the Ammar in every rig they have.
That's why I run another suit equal to the Min Scout. The Ammar Senti. Thought that would be a bit of a balancer in my game but, NOPE. No love for the Fat boys ither.
Anyway's, off to DIE!
Have fun and CCP, Please give us some Loving!!!
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Tch Tch
Red Shirts Away Team
46
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Posted - 2013.12.05 22:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Niuvo wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Tch Tch wrote:Make AA only available if you could normally scan the suit. If your suit lacks enough precision you can't get an auto aim lock.
Makes precision modules more valuable. Means unadjusted a medium can't AA a scout but a scout can AA medium.
So roll it into the suit mechanics. That's an interesting and unique idea. I like it. Gives AA 'realistic' sense as if it were a computer aided aiming system within the suit. Would actually bring diversity to fittings as it would be a battle of accuracy, stealth, and HP instead of just HP. Too bad ccp will never do this. Aim assist just sounds stupid.
It is, but might as well make it work for scouts and not against them.
Also EVE is 100% aim assist.
FYI I use MDs, REs and Nanite injectors... Only the last has AA ;)
Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
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ELITE INQUISITOR
Eternal Beings
41
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:20:00 -
[31] - Quote
Why can't a proto scout with profile dampening 5 not beat the duvolle scanner? If we are supposed to be the stealth class it defeats the purpose of skulking into pd.
If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
468
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:37:00 -
[32] - Quote
ELITE INQUISITOR wrote:Why can't a proto scout with profile dampening 5 not beat the duvolle scanner? .
You can. IF you also stack 3 (?) proto dampeners on.
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Eric Del Carlo
0uter.Heaven Proficiency V.
4
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
I apologize for things that might already have been stated by others in my post...
- It makes no sense that a scout has to invest a huge amount of sp to be just as viable as an assault with not much sp invested into core skills.
- It makes no sense that scouts have almost the same scan profile as mediums, and can be scanned easily without investing sp into profile dampening. Which is a huge drawback for minmatar scouts, since advanced and proto are only given 2 low slots, and sacrificing one for a dampener severely gimps the suit.
- It makes no sense that a scout's stamina only lasts a brief amount of time, and getting from point A to B can be cumbersome. Also the rate of stamina recharging is too slow, meaning after my stamina runs out, it seems like ages especially when evading enemy fire, for the stamina to refill.
- It makes no sense that nova knife users are stuck walking while slashing, rather than maintaining sprinting speed when stabbing the enemy, leading to instances where a knifer will come up from behind a walkingor running enemy, but only the first slash registers.
That's all I can think of at the moment.... |
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
622
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 01:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
It is true what they are saying in this thread.
My scout brethren need some love.
But not up the backside, please.
Real love. Like with a hug.
Perhaps some PG/CPU improvements or some slot improvements?
CCP, the ball is in your court on this one.
Munch
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
2641
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:ELITE INQUISITOR wrote:Why can't a proto scout with profile dampening 5 not beat the duvolle scanner? . You can. IF you also stack 3 (?) proto dampeners on.
Scout Level(5) + 4 Complex Dampeners |
Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
469
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote: Perhaps some PG/CPU improvements or some slot improvements?
For the record, scout, and medium frame, have almost identical pg and cpu. So, it would have to be slot improvements of some type.
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RedZer0 MK1
The Generals General Tso's Alliance
123
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Posted - 2013.12.06 02:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Besides the bonuses which need worked out across the board, the scouts need only two things. A second equipment slot and more CPU/PG. But not just enough to cover the equipment though. Enough to allow better modules and weapons to be fit. |
Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
472
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Posted - 2013.12.06 05:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
RedZer0 MK1 wrote:Besides the bonuses which need worked out across the board, the scouts need only two things. A second equipment slot and more CPU/PG. But not just enough to cover the equipment though. Enough to allow better modules and weapons to be fit.
more cpu/pg would not be balanced. unfair to other suits
more slots would be fair though.
another eq slot would be a fun alternative.
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Phazoid
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
103
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Posted - 2013.12.06 05:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
our speed is pathethic, no real place on the battlefield, no advantage over other suits, extemely vulnerable to snipers due to very open maps, no real scout weapons, a CPU/PG amount worthy of a dog dropsuit, very limited map awareness and the fact that after 6 months of waiting CCP only gave us 6mts of passive scanning bonus, which was a infuriating insult to us
Me and my inner demons stopped fighting......We are on the same side now...
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
168
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Thanks for taking the time to write, guys. Please keep in mind, though, like the first post says: this is not a wishlist thread. This is a "what is broken about current mechanics for scout" thread.
Sorry. So I'll try discussing some of what is wrong currently:
The idea of a Light Suit is that you are giving up a lot of the heavier equipment and weapons in order to become cheaper and more mobile than a Medium Suit. Additionally, the idea of a Scout Suit is that it be able to infiltrate and return intelligence.
Honestly, prior to playing DUST 514, my assumption for a Light Suit is that it wouldn't be able to use and of the "light" weapons (AR, shotgun, sniper rifle, scrambler rifle, mass driver, plasma cannon, swarm launcher, etc.) and be limited to only a sidearm weapon. Another limitation would have been to only have one weapon choice, but they have two, light and sidearm, as well as a grenade slot. This widened my expectations for Light Suits from the get go.
So what really differentiates a Light Suit from a Medium Suit? the base stats are a little different, but the major difference is that the Light Suit has significantly less High and Low Power Slots. It has the same number of Equipment slots (one) where Heavy Suits have none and only Logistics Suits get more than one as that is their role (and they give up a weapon choice for that which as I pointed out above, the Light Suit does not).
So like in EVE, the major difference between ship categories is the number of module slots available to each. Smaller ships have a lot less, medium ships have more, and heavy ships have the most. Equivalently, smaller ships are less expensive to loose than the larger ones, and accordingly Light Suits cost less than Medium and Heavy Suits.
So as stated above, a lighter suit gives up the space and weight of the additional modules to gain mobility (and incidentally become cheaper to buy and operate as well). By "operate" I mean it's also less skill points to get into as evidenced by the SP multipliers on the dropsuit skills. This is where the first problem comes into being. With the current speed settings for DUST dropsuits, a Medium Suit can easily keep up with a Light Suit taking away one of the major reasons for being in a Light Suit to begin with. Additionally, mobility would include things like how long you can maintain a sprint for as well as how many times you can jump before being exhausted. But all suits, no matter the size seem to start with almost the same amount of Stamina! In EVE, capacitor would be the only "equivalent' and there, the larger the ship, the more capacitor capacity. So maybe larger suits should have more Stamina (they have to carry all that extra crap on those long hikes) however it should "cost" them more stamina per second to run or jump than a Light Suit.
However the reason that CCP would be hesitant to allow the Scout Suit to run so fast is because once maxed out in skill and with the right combination of biotics it becomes abusive. So the counter would be to nerf the speed of the heavier suits, however it then becomes frustrating for them to try to run anywhere as many of the maps are too huge. So a balance act is needed here.
So to sum up the issues with the Basic Light Suit:
- The Light Suit doesn't run significantly faster than the Medium Suit does.
- The Light Suit should cost less in Stamina per second to run and jump than heavier suits.
Now onward to the Scout Suits. The purpose of a 'scout' is to infiltrate and return intelligence. So to accomplish this, a scout needs to have a smaller signature (or be invisible) and have a way to spot others without being spotted themselves. Currently, Scouts enjoy a 16m scan radius while other suits only get 10m. While this may not seem great, it would be significant if it weren't for the latest addition to the game, the scanner. Currently, the scan profile of a scout suit is not significantly smaller than that of Medium Suit, however they do get a 5% bonus per level to reduce it, so at level 5 that is 25% reduction to scan profile. This results in a Scout Suit being 32.5% smaller in profile than a Medium Suit (before modules, but both classes of suits could be using those). At face value this seems appropriate. The problem is that anyone in any suit (with an equipment slot) can pick up a scanner and scan out the Scout whit a high enough skill and a good enough scanner. This makes it impossible for the Scout to do it's first mission: infiltrate.
So the best solution is to do something similar to how EVE makes locking time based upon signature size of the the locking ship as well as the signature size of the ship being locked. A larger ship take longer to lock onto a smaller ship, than if a smaller ship is locking onto a similarly sized ship. So maybe modify the scan result due to using a scanner with the size of the scan profile of the suit doing the scanning. This results in Light Suits being able to scan out other Light Suits and larger; Medium Suits being able to scan out other Medium Suits and larger (missing many of the Scouts); Heavy Suits (Commandos only) being able to scan out other Heavy Suits and larger; and, Vehicles (aha! you say) being able to scan out other Vehicles and larger. This encourages similar size opponents to engage similarly (or larger) sized opponents. So a ratio of scanner profile {ScanXmit} to that of the one being scanned {ScanRcv} needs to be implemented: {ScanRcv}/{ScanXmit} or similar.
So to sum up the issues with the Scout Suit:
- The Scout Suit may need to have its scan range tweaked to be higher still. (Possibly make the Galente Scout bonus a role bonus for all Scouts.)
- All scanning needs to include a ratio of the Scan Profile of the one being scanned as compared to the Scan Profile of the one doing the scanning.
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Ivy Zalinto
Lo-Tech Solutions Ltd
236
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
A consistent passive scan on the radar would be worth wolds to my playstyle as a scout. The current passive scan range on my character is somewhere around 29-31 meters at 3 gallente scout and 5 range amp but I still dont catch people until their in a critical threat zone. Give us more situational awareness of what lies behind the wall so we can successfully sneak around without a fair bit of luck involved. Considering my luck is **** I think im doing pretty well.
Dedicated Stealth Scout.
Scout instructor; Learning Coalition
Scrambler Pistol dedication
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
640
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Posted - 2014.01.03 05:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bump to avoid thread locking just yet. At least until the devs get back from vacation and see this :-) The last dev weekly update, was around dec 6th I think
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
890
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Posted - 2014.01.03 07:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
The thing that seems most "broken" to me about scouts at the moment is the differing racial bonuses between Gal and Min. The two suits have bonuses which lead one to a very specialized and pre-defined 'role' and the other to be more of a general scout/infiltrator.
The Gallente bonus to me is highly useful in the sense that no matter what your play style, having extra scan range is useful - it helps if you are a CQC person see and avoid enemies, a mid-range person to define targets and keep CQC opponents away, an RE expert has an easier time setting traps and luring victims, a sniper get's an easier time seeing folks trying to get the drop on them up close, an infiltrator has better odds of sneaking into places.
The Gal suit represents what I like about the scout suit; it is a suit for a general special-ops type play style, not a specific 'role' (i.e., the 'scanner guy', or the 'speed hacker') I'd prefer scouts not have pre-defined roles but general bonuses to allow user customization.
The Min bonus is just the opposite - it's highly specialized and if you don't end up using it to be a nova knifer, or at least equip them, you've essentially used all that SP to get proto scout and you get only 1/2 of the bonus..... (maybe this wouldn't be so much the case if the melee base damage was better, as the suit could really be the 'brawler')
I don't mention this to suggest that CCP remove the nova knife bonus!! I know a lot of my Min scout brothers love this bonus and I'm not looking to mess w/ anyone's play style. I just hope that this doesn't become a TREND as other suits are released and suit bonuses are re-worked.
I'd like to see CCP take a stance on this at some point and either say they are shooting for bonuses which sort of nudge folks into a specific well-defined role (aka "nova knifer", "laser/scrambler rifle user", etc....) or whether they are shooting to keep suits more generic to allow user customization w/in the racial play style (current Gal scout scan range, Gal logi eq fitting reduction bonus, etc..)
For instance, I do NOT want to see the Gal bonus re-worked to be something like a "shotgun" bonus. I don't use shotguns, and I don't want to loose what I have as a useful general racial bonus. |
Fusion Commander
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
55
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Posted - 2014.01.03 10:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:5. There are very little to almost no maps in the game that favor scouts. Even the cities are becoming less safe for scouts. Often times, I'm thrown into matches that never favor scouts.
You know we have 4 city maps right, and if those dont favor for scouts, what does?
Prey on the weak and you will survive, prey on the strong and you may live.
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
346
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Posted - 2014.01.03 10:43:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm no scout but did notice the oddity that some nanohives have a LOT of hit points... it was in your list and does make no sense at all! :) |
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