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ELITE INQUISITOR
Eternal Beings
41
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:20:00 -
[31] - Quote
Why can't a proto scout with profile dampening 5 not beat the duvolle scanner? If we are supposed to be the stealth class it defeats the purpose of skulking into pd.
If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
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Quil Evrything
DUST University
Ivy League
468
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:37:00 -
[32] - Quote
ELITE INQUISITOR wrote:Why can't a proto scout with profile dampening 5 not beat the duvolle scanner? .
You can. IF you also stack 3 (?) proto dampeners on.
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Eric Del Carlo
0uter.Heaven
Proficiency V.
4
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
I apologize for things that might already have been stated by others in my post...
- It makes no sense that a scout has to invest a huge amount of sp to be just as viable as an assault with not much sp invested into core skills.
- It makes no sense that scouts have almost the same scan profile as mediums, and can be scanned easily without investing sp into profile dampening. Which is a huge drawback for minmatar scouts, since advanced and proto are only given 2 low slots, and sacrificing one for a dampener severely gimps the suit.
- It makes no sense that a scout's stamina only lasts a brief amount of time, and getting from point A to B can be cumbersome. Also the rate of stamina recharging is too slow, meaning after my stamina runs out, it seems like ages especially when evading enemy fire, for the stamina to refill.
- It makes no sense that nova knife users are stuck walking while slashing, rather than maintaining sprinting speed when stabbing the enemy, leading to instances where a knifer will come up from behind a walkingor running enemy, but only the first slash registers.
That's all I can think of at the moment.... |
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
622
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
It is true what they are saying in this thread.
My scout brethren need some love.
But not up the backside, please.
Real love. Like with a hug.
Perhaps some PG/CPU improvements or some slot improvements?
CCP, the ball is in your court on this one.
Munch
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
2641
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:ELITE INQUISITOR wrote:Why can't a proto scout with profile dampening 5 not beat the duvolle scanner? . You can. IF you also stack 3 (?) proto dampeners on.
Scout Level(5) + 4 Complex Dampeners |
Quil Evrything
DUST University
Ivy League
469
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:
Perhaps some PG/CPU improvements or some slot improvements?
For the record, scout, and medium frame, have almost identical pg and cpu.
So, it would have to be slot improvements of some type.
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RedZer0 MK1
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
123
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Posted - 2013.12.06 02:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Besides the bonuses which need worked out across the board, the scouts need only two things. A second equipment slot and more CPU/PG. But not just enough to cover the equipment though. Enough to allow better modules and weapons to be fit. |
Quil Evrything
DUST University
Ivy League
472
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Posted - 2013.12.06 05:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
RedZer0 MK1 wrote:Besides the bonuses which need worked out across the board, the scouts need only two things. A second equipment slot and more CPU/PG. But not just enough to cover the equipment though. Enough to allow better modules and weapons to be fit.
more cpu/pg would not be balanced. unfair to other suits
more slots would be fair though.
another eq slot would be a fun alternative.
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Phazoid
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
103
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Posted - 2013.12.06 05:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
our speed is pathethic, no real place on the battlefield, no advantage over other suits, extemely vulnerable to snipers due to very open maps, no real scout weapons, a CPU/PG amount worthy of a dog dropsuit, very limited map awareness and the fact that after 6 months of waiting CCP only gave us 6mts of passive scanning bonus, which was a infuriating insult to us
Me and my inner demons stopped fighting......We are on the same side now...
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
168
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Thanks for taking the time to write, guys.
Please keep in mind, though, like the first post says: this is not a wishlist thread.
This is a "what is broken about current mechanics for scout" thread.
Sorry. So I'll try discussing some of what is wrong currently:
The idea of a Light Suit is that you are giving up a lot of the heavier equipment and weapons in order to become cheaper and more mobile than a Medium Suit. Additionally, the idea of a Scout Suit is that it be able to infiltrate and return intelligence.
Honestly, prior to playing DUST 514, my assumption for a Light Suit is that it wouldn't be able to use and of the "light" weapons (AR, shotgun, sniper rifle, scrambler rifle, mass driver, plasma cannon, swarm launcher, etc.) and be limited to only a sidearm weapon. Another limitation would have been to only have one weapon choice, but they have two, light and sidearm, as well as a grenade slot. This widened my expectations for Light Suits from the get go.
So what really differentiates a Light Suit from a Medium Suit? the base stats are a little different, but the major difference is that the Light Suit has significantly less High and Low Power Slots. It has the same number of Equipment slots (one) where Heavy Suits have none and only Logistics Suits get more than one as that is their role (and they give up a weapon choice for that which as I pointed out above, the Light Suit does not).
So like in EVE, the major difference between ship categories is the number of module slots available to each. Smaller ships have a lot less, medium ships have more, and heavy ships have the most. Equivalently, smaller ships are less expensive to loose than the larger ones, and accordingly Light Suits cost less than Medium and Heavy Suits.
So as stated above, a lighter suit gives up the space and weight of the additional modules to gain mobility (and incidentally become cheaper to buy and operate as well). By "operate" I mean it's also less skill points to get into as evidenced by the SP multipliers on the dropsuit skills. This is where the first problem comes into being. With the current speed settings for DUST dropsuits, a Medium Suit can easily keep up with a Light Suit taking away one of the major reasons for being in a Light Suit to begin with. Additionally, mobility would include things like how long you can maintain a sprint for as well as how many times you can jump before being exhausted. But all suits, no matter the size seem to start with almost the same amount of Stamina! In EVE, capacitor would be the only "equivalent' and there, the larger the ship, the more capacitor capacity. So maybe larger suits should have more Stamina (they have to carry all that extra crap on those long hikes) however it should "cost" them more stamina per second to run or jump than a Light Suit.
However the reason that CCP would be hesitant to allow the Scout Suit to run so fast is because once maxed out in skill and with the right combination of biotics it becomes abusive. So the counter would be to nerf the speed of the heavier suits, however it then becomes frustrating for them to try to run anywhere as many of the maps are too huge. So a balance act is needed here.
So to sum up the issues with the Basic Light Suit:
- The Light Suit doesn't run significantly faster than the Medium Suit does.
- The Light Suit should cost less in Stamina per second to run and jump than heavier suits.
Now onward to the Scout Suits. The purpose of a 'scout' is to infiltrate and return intelligence. So to accomplish this, a scout needs to have a smaller signature (or be invisible) and have a way to spot others without being spotted themselves. Currently, Scouts enjoy a 16m scan radius while other suits only get 10m. While this may not seem great, it would be significant if it weren't for the latest addition to the game, the scanner. Currently, the scan profile of a scout suit is not significantly smaller than that of Medium Suit, however they do get a 5% bonus per level to reduce it, so at level 5 that is 25% reduction to scan profile. This results in a Scout Suit being 32.5% smaller in profile than a Medium Suit (before modules, but both classes of suits could be using those). At face value this seems appropriate. The problem is that anyone in any suit (with an equipment slot) can pick up a scanner and scan out the Scout whit a high enough skill and a good enough scanner. This makes it impossible for the Scout to do it's first mission: infiltrate.
So the best solution is to do something similar to how EVE makes locking time based upon signature size of the the locking ship as well as the signature size of the ship being locked. A larger ship take longer to lock onto a smaller ship, than if a smaller ship is locking onto a similarly sized ship. So maybe modify the scan result due to using a scanner with the size of the scan profile of the suit doing the scanning. This results in Light Suits being able to scan out other Light Suits and larger; Medium Suits being able to scan out other Medium Suits and larger (missing many of the Scouts); Heavy Suits (Commandos only) being able to scan out other Heavy Suits and larger; and, Vehicles (aha! you say) being able to scan out other Vehicles and larger. This encourages similar size opponents to engage similarly (or larger) sized opponents. So a ratio of scanner profile {ScanXmit} to that of the one being scanned {ScanRcv} needs to be implemented: {ScanRcv}/{ScanXmit} or similar.
So to sum up the issues with the Scout Suit:
- The Scout Suit may need to have its scan range tweaked to be higher still. (Possibly make the Galente Scout bonus a role bonus for all Scouts.)
- All scanning needs to include a ratio of the Scan Profile of the one being scanned as compared to the Scan Profile of the one doing the scanning.
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Ivy Zalinto
Lo-Tech Solutions Ltd
236
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
A consistent passive scan on the radar would be worth wolds to my playstyle as a scout. The current passive scan range on my character is somewhere around 29-31 meters at 3 gallente scout and 5 range amp but I still dont catch people until their in a critical threat zone. Give us more situational awareness of what lies behind the wall so we can successfully sneak around without a fair bit of luck involved. Considering my luck is **** I think im doing pretty well.
Dedicated Stealth Scout.
Scout instructor; Learning Coalition
Scrambler Pistol dedication
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
640
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Posted - 2014.01.03 05:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bump to avoid thread locking just yet. At least until the devs get back from vacation and see this :-)
The last dev weekly update, was around dec 6th I think
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
890
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Posted - 2014.01.03 07:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
The thing that seems most "broken" to me about scouts at the moment is the differing racial bonuses between Gal and Min. The two suits have bonuses which lead one to a very specialized and pre-defined 'role' and the other to be more of a general scout/infiltrator.
The Gallente bonus to me is highly useful in the sense that no matter what your play style, having extra scan range is useful - it helps if you are a CQC person see and avoid enemies, a mid-range person to define targets and keep CQC opponents away, an RE expert has an easier time setting traps and luring victims, a sniper get's an easier time seeing folks trying to get the drop on them up close, an infiltrator has better odds of sneaking into places.
The Gal suit represents what I like about the scout suit; it is a suit for a general special-ops type play style, not a specific 'role' (i.e., the 'scanner guy', or the 'speed hacker') I'd prefer scouts not have pre-defined roles but general bonuses to allow user customization.
The Min bonus is just the opposite - it's highly specialized and if you don't end up using it to be a nova knifer, or at least equip them, you've essentially used all that SP to get proto scout and you get only 1/2 of the bonus..... (maybe this wouldn't be so much the case if the melee base damage was better, as the suit could really be the 'brawler')
I don't mention this to suggest that CCP remove the nova knife bonus!! I know a lot of my Min scout brothers love this bonus and I'm not looking to mess w/ anyone's play style. I just hope that this doesn't become a TREND as other suits are released and suit bonuses are re-worked.
I'd like to see CCP take a stance on this at some point and either say they are shooting for bonuses which sort of nudge folks into a specific well-defined role (aka "nova knifer", "laser/scrambler rifle user", etc....) or whether they are shooting to keep suits more generic to allow user customization w/in the racial play style (current Gal scout scan range, Gal logi eq fitting reduction bonus, etc..)
For instance, I do NOT want to see the Gal bonus re-worked to be something like a "shotgun" bonus. I don't use shotguns, and I don't want to loose what I have as a useful general racial bonus. |
Fusion Commander
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
55
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Posted - 2014.01.03 10:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:5. There are very little to almost no maps in the game that favor scouts. Even the cities are becoming less safe for scouts. Often times, I'm thrown into matches that never favor scouts.
You know we have 4 city maps right, and if those dont favor for scouts, what does?
Prey on the weak and you will survive, prey on the strong and you may live.
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
346
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Posted - 2014.01.03 10:43:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm no scout but did notice the oddity that some nanohives have a LOT of hit points... it was in your list and does make no sense at all! :) |
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